HELP! She's slapping her toddler in the face!

[Maple Leaf Mama]

OMG, I'm in such shock right now.
I just don't know how or what to say that won't allienate my best friend. She already sees me as a bit of a crackpot b/c I co-sleep and bf for (gasp 20 months) etc etc.

My best friend told me today that she has resorted to slapping her 4 year old across the face for acting out. Then she throws him in his room for a time out. I was on the phone when this happened and my jaw just dropped. The kid was bawling his head off. She says he just won't listen anymore. (he was doing something over and over she kept telling him not to)
She has a newborn at home, so I KNOW most of his issues are the result of a new baby, even though he was very excited about her.

THEN she told me that if he wants something and she doesn't jump, he will poop himself.

I think she is overwhelmed. I know she is on anti depressants (so no PPD issue here) Her husband works wierd hours and her beloved Grandfather is dying and this is pitting the entire family against her. So she is terribly stressed. BUT, that is NO excuse, just a background for you.
I suggested she bring the baby to bed so she can get more sleep and she laughed at me and said "oh no, THAT will NEVER happen", which made me sad.

She is not AP at all (though she is bf her 4 month old)

Her son is very very advanced for his age and I'm worried that this will really mess him up.

I do have to add that she is a very loving, attentive mother. She lives for her kids. She usually has more patience than I could only dream of. (she worked with severly mentally disabled adults)
I guess that is why DH and I were so blown away.

So ladies,
What the heck do I say that won't come across as holier than thou AP reteric that she will ignore?
I can't come on too strong here.
HELP. I'm sorry to post a thread like this, but I really need some advice.
Thanks!
Sandy

[lisac77]

This is so hard! Maybe you could offer to have the older son over? That would give her a break and maybe a little perspective. When she is calmer I would talk to her very gently about her actions... chances are that she knows the slapping is wrong and she needs a more appropriate way to deal with his behavior, but she's too tired to think of creative solutions.

I kind of identify with her because this is exactly what I'm afraid I will become if I have another child... a mean mama who can't deal.

[Kindermama]

how about gifting her 1-2-3 Magic book? It's not Dr. Sears but it's a great gentle discipline/mainstream book.

Also to add that AD aren't the be all & end all of PDD...it might not be a high enough dose..she might not be taking it consistently...just thoughts...certainly not excuses for her actions towards her child.

[WuWei]

She needs respite care. She needs time away. I agree babysitting is the best suggestion. Give as much as you can do so that she gets a break. There are some Bach Flower remedies that might help her keep her cool. Cherry Plum is for anger and feeling out of control. And Elm is for when you feel overwhelmed. She can take them and nurse. (I know the bottle says check with your health professional if taking meds or nursing. ) Suggest daycare for the child even; but sending him away when a new baby comes isn't going to help his mental health. She needs a book about child development or how about Playful Parenting? Even Dr. Sears or the Positive Parenting books give ideas for engaged discipline.

I would tell her that hitting children can damage their self-esteem and teaches them to hit. The www.NoSpank.net has a little booklet called "Straight Talk about Spanking" which is a well documented and authoritative book about the damage and danger of hitting children.

Keep us informed. Can her husband do more to help? Maybe take meals to her. Get them out to the park to burn off energy. Send a couple of videos for the child to have some down time. Try to avoid the phone which is hard on toddlers. Make playdate visits instead at neutral places, if you don't want to go there. I would not allow my child to be exposed to that type of violence though and I would discuss it absolutely.

Pat

[Maple Leaf Mama]

Sorry ladies, I should have added: I am a 4 hours plane ride from her, so helping out is impossible.
She has many friends in the neighborhood, but no family close by that could just drop in and help.
Also, she has been on AD for YEARS. I think she sees a Dr. on a regular basis for that
I agree, Pat that I don't want my DD to be around that-it would totally freak her out! (she's 2 and knows that hitting hurts)
I'll be seeing them at Christmas and I'm a bit nervous about it.
Sandy

[Storm Bride]

I was also going to say that the medication may not be doing the trick. I was lucky in getting the right one and the right dosage first time around. My best friend took three different AD meds before she found one that helped.

You could also suggest that if he's doing something she doesn't like and won't stop that she should gently stop him...not yell at him, but actually stop him...take something out of his hand, take him away from the couch, his sibling, the fridge, whatever. Explain that that's not okay,and give him a hug. I've seen kids kind of regress for a while when a new baby comes along...maybe suggest that she treat him like a 2-year-old when he misbehaves (and I don't mean the old "if you're going to act like a baby, I'll treat you like one" nonsense. I just think sher should remove any hint of "you're 4-years old - you should know better than that" from her thinking
for a while. That shouldn't sound "too AP".

HTH

[HappyHSer]

I would not try to sell her on gentle discipline or on positive parenting.

Does she know that slapping a 4 yo in the face is abuse? Is she ready and willing to admit that? Because that's where she needs to start. Slapping a child in anger is something that requires intervention.

I would focus on the fact that she's never been the mother of a 4 yo while having an infant. She needs better self care skills, anger management and discipline ideas. In that order.

But a "no hitting" comittment has to be the first step.

[Kathryn]

Originally Posted by HappyHSer

I would not try to sell her on gentle discipline or on positive parenting.

Does she know that slapping a 4 yo in the face is abuse? Is she ready and willing to admit that? Because that's where she needs to start. Slapping a child in anger is something that requires intervention.

I would focus on the fact that she's never been the mother of a 4 yo while having an infant. She needs better self care skills, anger management and discipline ideas. In that order.

But a "no hitting" comittment has to be the first step.

My sisters husband kids were taken away from their bio mom because she slapped her 5 year old in the face. Granted, she had done other things as well, but the slap in the face was what got them taken away.

[moma justice]

do you know her history....has she been your friend for a long time? do you know about her childhood? is that how she was treated? (i am guessing that is how her parents treated her, maybe even worse...)
breaking the cycle of child abuse is one of the BIGGEST struggles of my life, and maybe always will.

and one of the only ONLY things that stops me from htting my baby (and i KNOW a lot about GD) is remembering what it felt like to be that child who is getting hit and yelled at.....how that made me feel about my parents and the whole world.

so maybe you could talk to her about what her son may be feeling when she does that and remind about how it is not going to really give her the results that she is looking for (which i am guessing are her son being well behaved and loving and respectful)
and the good thing about you living far away, is if she freaks out on you after your advice, you don't have to face her every day.
good luck

and i am also a big fan of prayer...there is only so much we can do to change other people.

[oliversmum2000]

i would definitely offer to have the 4 yo but not in a way that sounds as if you are doing her a favour (she may have trouble accepting help) but ask if he wants to come over and play in a play date sort of way.

[phathui5]

Do you think her husband knows? My dh is not exactly GD (doesn't think spanking is so bad) but he would freak out if I did that (which I don't).

[mamaduck]

I agree that she needs respite, support, and a lot of empathy. But at the same time, I would have responded to her statement about slapping by gasping, and then saying, "But you just CANNOT do that. Its not okay to slap our kids accross the face EVER. You need to find another way to deal with him."

I've found with my non-GD friends that if I am quiet and non-confrontational most of the time about most of the issues, then they will sometimes wake up and listen if I occassionally react strongly to something they do. A quick and strongly worded reaction like, "I'm sorry, but I can't believe what I just heard!" will sometimes wake them up to the reality of what they are doing.

[lilsishomemade]

I have to say, my dh is also one who doesn't think spanking is bad, but if I ever slapped on of our children, he'd probably divorce me....Even amongst pro-spankers that is a huge statement of disrespect, and is abusive.

I don't know what kind of advice to give you, hun. I understand the stress and so on, but I'd have a hard time really being as close to this person if this is the norm for her. I also think that perhaps her medication isn't working like it should be, or may not be enough with all the craziness in her life right now. I'd suggest she discuss this specifically with her doctor.

[Ruthla]

Since you're too far away to "be there" for her in person, is it within your budget to hire somebody to help her out? Maybe a cleaning service, or meals delivered once a week- the kind of stuff you'd do for her if she was closer!

I'd suggest to her that she should talk to her Dr about adjusting her meds- with all the stress in her life, her current medication might not be enough.

[Sharlla]

Originally Posted by Kathryn

My sisters husband kids were taken away from their bio mom because she slapped her 5 year old in the face. Granted, she had done other things as well, but the slap in the face was what got them taken away.

Yep, I was put in foster care when I was 6 or 7 because of this.

[boongirl]

Why don't you mail her a care package. Some treats she loves, a nice relaxing cd or something like that, and a good GD book or two. Does not have to cost a lot; you could do used books. One that works great for me and is not too preachy is Becoming the parent you want to be by Laura Davis and Janis Keyser. You can read the whole thing of just sections. Or, Dr. Sears Discipline book is great. Same thing, you can read parts or all. You could include a note saying you understand parenting is tough and you wish you were there to talk about it in person. Here are some things to help make it easier. Leave it at that. If you love her as a friend and she back, she will take suggestions and offers of help from you. Friends help each other.

[Crunchier]

Wow. I'm a little surprised by the reaction to this. I would never slap my child's face, though I have lost my temper and slapped his heiney But my parents hit me in the face till I was grown, and my friend's moms did too. Ppl have told me that they hit their kids in the mouth (closed hand) for biting, cussing etc a lot here (this is not where I grew up). Is this really shocking to ppl who think it's ok and even good to hit their kids?

[MommyMine]

I would be there for her emotionally and save all your judgement for later.

She is in crisis. I actually went through quite a crisis when my second child was born, my first also began pooping all over the house. I can't tell you how upsetting that was. I can't tell you how upset I was. I did not ever slap my child but I did do things that for me felt like "abuse" and were not my normal way of doing things. I found myself one terrible day even feeling like my eldest was evil and out to get me. (shudder)

Please be there for her. Please tell her you love her and that it is OK...that it will get better. Try to get her a postpartum doula (can you offer to pay?) to help out one day a week. Try to get her to connect with her friends (I totally pulled away from my friends because I felt so out of control and I didn't want them to see me like that- the only person I told was an out of town person who couldn't "see" me) Try to help her get sleep, get time off, get away, get hobbies...get any of the things that will bring her back to center.

I have to say now that I am out of that I find that so much of what was making me nuts was my own doing- as clear as day I can see how it all got so far away from me but at that moment, with no sleep, with a new baby I wanted to focus on and an older child doing UNBELIVABLELY naughty things to get my attention....oh my goodness...it was awful.

Do you have two kids?

While loosing control as bad as I did may not be normal (or maybe it is...I dont' know)it helped me to know that loosing control some, the total misbehavior of the older sibling...all that was normal.

PS have you ever imagined what it must be like to have the older child litterally pooping all over the house? Try to imagine you in your nesting place with the newborn (feeling anxiety about germs and what not like you do with a newborn) trapped breast feeding when the older one takes that moment (because that is when you are least paying attention to them so that is when they will do it) to do the poop thing. You have to put down the newborn- breast spraying and newborn squalling to deal with the older one. And then you have to deal with this dirty, filthy mess (newborn still squalling) that you KNOW this older child knows better than to do....

Look I am not saying I think she was right- she is not right to slap. But I am saying that understanding will be more helpful. I bet she doesn't think she was right either. I bet she is scared too...she may talk in bravado but I she is probobly terrified. Stuck thinking what have I done having another? I was so angry and sad at my oldest...angry about the behavior but absolutly mourning our special friendship that seemed totally lost. (it does come back btw) and mourning the fact that i wasn't getting a chance to bond with the newborn for the elder's behavior.

[Plummeting]

I wouldn't assume that she isn't having PPD issues just because she's on meds. Furthermore, most SSRI type antidepressants cause anxiety issues, so the medication could be making her WORSE, IRT her anxiety and lack of patience with her older child.