Bratty rude behavior - is it preschool or just being 4yo

[oceanbaby]

I am so regretting sending ds to preschool. I never wanted to do it, but was talked into it when he had speech delay issues. He is in a very small and gentle environment, but he's still managed to pick up all sorts of lovely behavior, such as: "It's not fair," "If you don't do xxx I'm going to hit you," "You're not my friend anymore," etc.

But my god, the TONE he uses with us. I can't imagine he got that from preschool. It's like he's 15. It makes me crazy. Neither dh or I really know exactly what to do about it, but we just can't tolerate it.

I am so bummed - I feel like I ruined him by sending him to preschool. He ws the sweetest, most polite, gentle little boy. Dh thinks it has more to do with being 4yo than with preschool, but I'm not so sure. I mean, he's still overall a very sweet boy, and his moments of sweetness outweight his moments of total rudeness, but it just makes me so sad and frustrated to hear him speaking like this.

So, if you have a 4yo that didn't go to preschool, does he/she still act like this? And what do you do about it? What do you do about your dc saying rude things to you? I tell him that I don't like him speaking to me like that, and he just yells or says "That's not fair" or "Yes you do!" or some other frustrating response.

[maya44]

When does this come up? Is it when you are asking him to do something that he does not want to do.

If so, I would just mostly ignore it. Don't respond. Let it go. Its amazing how fast it goes away (or at least significantly reduces) when you stop letting it push your buttons. And its amazing how much better you feel about it too.

For example:

YOu: DS pick up your toys

No: It's not fair!

You: DS don't talk that way, its rude

DS: NO its not. I don't like you

Notice how we've deflected nicely from the "picking up your things" idea

InsteadL

You: DS pick up your toys

Ds: It's not fair

YOu: Your toys need to be picked up now, so that we can go to the park. Let me know if you need some help.

DS: I am going to hit you

You: I'll be in the kitchen emptying the dishwasher if you need some help let me know (exit, stage left)

[oceanbaby]

It's not generally precipitated by me asking him to do something. It seems to be pretty out of the blue. For instance, yesterday everything is hunky dory. I give both the kids snacks - tangerine and a waffle. I walk out of the room for a minute. I guess ds2 finished his tangerine, and turned around and took a piece off of ds1's plate. And ds1 just lost it. I tried to empathize with him about him being angry that ds2 took a piece, I offered him another piece (we had more in the kitchen), but he just immediately went to the dark side on me. Screaming, yelling, etc.

Or sometimes it is because we tell him he can't do something. Like we are getting ready to leave the house, and he asks if he can watch a DVD. I explain that we are just about to leave, but that he can certainly watch it when we get back. And he starts in with the "That's not fair! I don't like that!" I try to empathize, etc., but he gets to the point where he's being sooooo rude that I feel like I need to step back and set some boundaries for how he's treating me.

And if I leave the room or try to disengage from the conversation, he follows me around screaming at me to answer him.

And this where I am confused about the type of situation you described. So that happens, and when I come back, he still hasn't picked up the toys. What do I do? It's not fair to ds2 that we don't go to the park, but I've told ds1 that we can't leave for the park until the toys are picked up. (IRL, this wouldn't be a scenario at our house, but I am just trying to figure out what to do once you have given them this choice.)

[Evan&Anna's_Mom]

Well, on the bright side, at least he's using words and not fists!

I can't answer your actual question because both of my children went to preschool (and before that, daycare) since they were 2 1/2 or so. I do know that we go through phases of this from time to time. Its probably true that children learn things from other kids, and not all of it is possitive. And I think they may be more inclined to "test" you and your love when they spend part of the day away from you.

But, even without preschool, unless you kept a child totally isolated, they would still learn things on the playground, in play group, wherever there are other children. So I don't think its fair to specifically blame preschool. And I know that our preschool works really hard to teach kind words and actions between children. And, even if this is full-time preschool (which it doesn't sound like), they still spend more time with you than at school, so you have the opportunity to reinforce the fact that such behaviour is not acceptable.

As for the scenario you describe, never give a choice that you aren't willing to actually accept either decision on. If you say "pick up toys or no park", then you need to accept no park as an option -- even if it is unfair to the other child. Or, you choose a different option. Some other options that occur to me are: don't worry about the toys and do them yourself, work at making it a game that everyone participates in, give the choice "you do it or mommy picks them up and puts them away for XX time", only allow one toy at a time. Any of these has advantages and disadvantages, but one might suit your style better than others.

As for "it's not fair" or other such comments, I generally just ignore them. Or I will say, "I know its not fair" and carry on. For really awful tone, I will say once, "That is not a nice tone of voice, please try again." After that, I completely ignore until the request is made politely.

Good luck.

[coleslaw]

My dd doesn't go to preschool, never did, and she says "It's not fair" all the time. She also pulled a "If you don't let me I'm going to move away to TN grandma and Grandpa's house." And yes it's said with tons of attitude. She may have learned it from friends who go to preschool or just from being four. She always been very strong-willed and determined (apple doesn't fall far from the tree :LOL ) so I can usually ignore it or work on the tone, but there are days...

[HappyHSer]

Being a former daycare/preschool owner and current homeschooler, I have some pretty strong opinions on the questions you raise.

They are outside of the scope of this board. PM me if you want to know more, I don't want to impose my opinions on you unsolicited.

Know that there are other options for facilitating speech.

[maya44]

Originally Posted by oceanbaby

It's not generally precipitated by me asking him to do something. It seems to be pretty out of the blue. For instance, yesterday everything is hunky dory. I give both the kids snacks - tangerine and a waffle. I walk out of the room for a minute. I guess ds2 finished his tangerine, and turned around and took a piece off of ds1's plate. And ds1 just lost it. I tried to empathize with him about him being angry that ds2 took a piece, I offered him another piece (we had more in the kitchen), but he just immediately went to the dark side on me. Screaming, yelling, etc.

Or sometimes it is because we tell him he can't do something. Like we are getting ready to leave the house, and he asks if he can watch a DVD. I explain that we are just about to leave, but that he can certainly watch it when we get back. And he starts in with the "That's not fair! I don't like that!" I try to empathize, etc., but he gets to the point where he's being sooooo rude that I feel like I need to step back and set some boundaries for how he's treating me.

And if I leave the room or try to disengage from the conversation, he follows me around screaming at me to answer him.

And this where I am confused about the type of situation you described. So that happens, and when I come back, he still hasn't picked up the toys. What do I do? It's not fair to ds2 that we don't go to the park, but I've told ds1 that we can't leave for the park until the toys are picked up. (IRL, this wouldn't be a scenario at our house, but I am just trying to figure out what to do once you have given them this choice.)

First, I think you simply have to ignore it and also disengage a little. If he is following you around screaming and you have already empathized, sypathized etc... I would just ignore the screaming and carry on with you day. If its really getting annoying I would put my nose in a book and let him carry on.

As to the situation I described, I would if I really wanted them put away, put them away myself.

AND then say "I had to put the toys away so that we could go to the park.
It was your job and I had to do it. Next time I expect you to do it". I would say this not yelling, but in a serious voice.

You'd be suprised at how this is just as effective in the long run as taking things away from them.

[sunnmama]

Originally Posted by Evan&Anna's_Mom

Well, on the bright side, at least he's using words and not fists!

Seriously, this is one of my coping strategies! I can understand that it would be different for you, Oceanbaby, because your ds was so sweet before preschool--but my dd was physically explosive in her 2s and 3s, so the rudeness is a *completely* manageable challenge for me! It's all relative

To answer you questions, yes--my 4.5 yo speaks similarly. No--she has never been in preschool. I chalk it up to the age--a different kind of temper tantrum.

[meowmix]

I haven't read all the replies but my 4 yr old boy does the same thing and at first I thought he picked it up from preschool but I now kind of think that, yea, maybe he picked up some of it at preschool, but alot of it is age. Also, had he not gone to preschool, he could have picked it up from a friend of his, or overhearing kids play at the park.

I do think, however, that he started doing it alot after preschool because MAYBE he realized he was his own person and able to function without me when he started preschool (he had never been in a morning out program, left with sitters regularly, etc). So this kind of helped him find his voice and have an opinion about everything! He's also gotten very bossy, which my neighbour's 4 yr old used to be like and it would drive me CRAZY when he played with my son. But now Trevor is doing the same thing! Argh.

So I think maybe preschool played a role in my son's newfound independence and opinions, but it could have happened without it, as well.

[chiedza]

Originally Posted by oceanbaby

he's still managed to pick up all sorts of lovely behavior, such as: "It's not fair," "If you don't do xxx I'm going to hit you," "You're not my friend anymore," etc.

But my god, the TONE he uses with us. I can't imagine he got that from preschool. It's like he's 15. It makes me crazy. Neither dh or I really know exactly what to do about it, but we just can't tolerate it..

I thought this was my post! Seriously, I posted almost this exact same thing a couple of weeks ago. There's something about preschool, I guess.

It has gotten a little better here, though -- the novelty of saying those kinds of things has worn off, I think. The way I handle it, when it occasionnaly still happens, is to say, "I don't like it when you talk to me that way. I'm not going to stay here when you're talking to me in that way." And I leave. DS doesn't like that, and so he stops.

[mommyoftwo]

My dd is in preschool and while I like to blame it on that, I don't think that is solely where it is coming from. I am starting to believe that at 4yo. they are starting to learn the power of words. They want to see how grown ups react when they say powerful things. I have heard all of the same expressions here. "your not my mommy and I don't love you anymore" are her two favs for now.

[ambdkf]

John Holt talks a bit about this in his book "Learning All the Time". He believes it is a fallacy that children will just become the way you are describing, he believes it is school. My children and about to turn 6 and 8 and we have not seen the behavior you are describing (they don’t go to school).

You are experiencing it and if it were me I would want to get to the need behind that behavior. I believe we hurt when we are hurting and he is crying out for something, perhaps it has to do with school, or sibling, or something all together different, but it's there and you can help him. I'd try to not view him as an adversary and labeling the behavior "bratty and rude" just pits the two of you against each other. If you can get to 'he's hurting, I'm hurting - how can we solve it" then maybe together you can reach a solution.

Here are a few books I love and constantly recommend

"Kids Parents and Power Struggles"

"How to talk so your kids will listen, How to listen so your kids will talk"

"5 Love Languages for Children" (I don't care for the second half of this book but finding out your child's love language is REALLY helpful.)

Focus on what you love about him and try to reconnect. Don't let school pull the two of you apart. I think that is one of the hidden dangers of school that people don't realize - it drives a huge wedge in families at a time when children are so young and still need to be connected with their families.

I'm sorry if this seems strong, I’m just really reacting to your subject line and the underlying pain that must be on both sides of that.

I wish you best.

Anna

[OakBerry]

My ds is 3 and yes, I think he is picking up some rude expressions from preschool too. Also the scathing tone of voice. Yikes!!! I know the teachers are gentle with the children and encourage polite words/no hitting etc, but kids copy other kids, period.
Before he started preschool, he started calling things "baby diaper, garbage dump-head" and saying "shut up". Those came from his cousin, who was in preschool at the time. Also he would pick up expressions from kids he played with at the playground. My ds was sweet and innocent a short time ago too. I believe this new rebellion/show of power is partly his age (learning the power of words, being his own person) and copying the kids he plays with.

[celrae]

My girls are not in pre-school but, we are also dealing with this. My thoughts are the pre-school environment is fertile ground for this type of behavior but, since we don't live in a glass bubble they pick it up quickly from friends that are in pre-school or have older siblings. Unfortunatly it is something that we have to deal with. I find girls to be more verbally aggressive and the boys to be physically aggressive. We are working hard to keep things under control and I talk to them about appropriate language and how to express feelings without being hurtful.

Here is a link about exclusionary play, this is a big concern for me. I overheard a friend of their's tell my girls that they couldn't play with her and within one week I witnessed my girls saying the same thing to a friend of their's. It is a viscous cycle and they tend to mimic what they are exposed to even if they were hurt by that comment.

http://growing-up.com/together.html

[dgourley]

my method

When any of my daughters have demonstrated that type of behavoir I have always sent them to their bedrooms until they could come out and be nice. There is no need for you as a parent to be abused by your children. They will learn quick.

[celrae]

This is another good article about mean girls and how that nasty behavior begins very young. This link has been posted here before but, I think it is interesting and worthy of a repeat.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/...in693714.shtml

[octobermom]

I am so regretting sending ds to preschool. I never wanted to do it, but was talked into it when he had speech delay issues. He is in a very small and gentle environment, but he's still managed to pick up all sorts of lovely behavior, such as: "It's not fair," "If you don't do xxx I'm going to hit you," "You're not my friend anymore," etc.

We send our three year old to preschool (verbal delay diagnoised with verbal and oral apraxia) and its been an absoutly wonderfull thing, were blessed and I thank God each day fro bringing a program thats soo in line with our belefs and needs. Saying that if school did not bring out the best in him I wouldn't hesistat to pull him out, I'm personally not sending my child to PS or will be choosing to keep her homeschooled (if thats what we decide latter) because I'm out to prove the other method is bad or that my way is fine. I will not compromise my child especially at such a vurnable age in that way. Hope things work out for you.
Deanna