Getting a LOT of pressure on Vit K

[hunnybumm]

**Xposted to Vax forum**

Ok, I did a little search and found a great thread on here which linked Vit K to childhood lukemia/cancer. I have decided that I don't want the Vit K unless there is an actual medical reason for it. However, at my MW appointment today (using a BC) I got a lot of pressure from the MW and the RN about getting the Vit K. I was also told that they would not clip the babies tongue (if the baby is tongue tied) if I didn't do the shot. They also said they couldn't use the oral Vit K. I read in an article that the oral hasn't been approved by the FDA so maybe that is why they won't use it?

They are really cool about no eye drops, waiting on the PKU and no Hep B, but they are putting a lot of pressure on the Vit K. The MW mentioned that a few years ago they didn't give the Vit K to a baby and it ended up with a brain bleed, that is why they are so insistant. To me that is a pour excuse and I really wanted to roll my eyes. This is also the first time I had met this particular MW and she rubbed me the wrong way, but I think how insistant she was on the Vit K is what bothered me. However, at my first appointment that MW was also pretty persistant about the Vit K, though it was so early in the pregnancy that we didn't really get into it.

Anyways, I am a little torn as to what to do. I still won't give the baby Vit K unless there is an actual medical reason for it (ie a tramatic birth, bruising, etc.) but if I want the babies tongue clipped (which I do if it is tongue tied) then I would have to agree to the Vit K because the baby could hemorage.

SO I guess I am wondering how others here feel about the Vit K and what situation THEY feel would warrant the shot. Would you get it to get the babies tongue clipped so that nursing can be successful from the get go? Would you get it if you had a 48 hour labor, with 3 hours of hard labor? Would you get it if the MW felt is was necissary?Ok, I did a little search and found a great thread on here which linked Vit K to childhood lukemia/cancer. I have decided that I don't want the Vit K unless there is an actual medical reason for it. However, at my MW appointment today (using a BC) I got a lot of pressure from the MW and the RN about getting the Vit K. I was also told that they would not clip the babies tongue (if the baby is tongue tied) if I didn't do the shot. They also said they couldn't use the oral Vit K. I read in an article that the oral hasn't been approved by the FDA so maybe that is why they won't use it?

They are really cool about no eye drops, waiting on the PKU and no Hep B, but they are putting a lot of pressure on the Vit K. The MW mentioned that a few years ago they didn't give the Vit K to a baby and it ended up with a brain bleed, that is why they are so insistant. To me that is a pour excuse and I really wanted to roll my eyes. This is also the first time I had met this particular MW and she rubbed me the wrong way, but I think how insistant she was on the Vit K is what bothered me. However, at my first appointment that MW was also pretty persistant about the Vit K, though it was so early in the pregnancy that we didn't really get into it.

Anyways, I am a little torn as to what to do. I still won't give the baby Vit K unless there is an actual medical reason for it (ie a tramatic birth, bruising, etc.) but if I want the babies tongue clipped (which I do if it is tongue tied) then I would have to agree to the Vit K because the baby could hemorage.

SO I guess I am wondering how others here feel about the Vit K and what situation THEY feel would warrant the shot. Would you get it to get the babies tongue clipped so that nursing can be successful from the get go? Would you get it if you had a 48 hour labor, with 3 hours of hard labor? Would you get it if the MW felt is was necissary?

[kiahnsmum]

How far along are you? Can you find a midwife who you feel comfortable with? What are the chances of your baby being tongue tied? I have had contact with heaps of mothers over the years and this is the first I;ve ever heard of tongue clipping,sounds scary! Remember when people are trying to pressure us, guilt trip our choice they usually bombard us with worst case scenarios.

[Persephone]

I think that babies have less clotting in the first week of their life for a reason. I'll be darned if I know what that reason is, but I choose not to mess with nature. However, if your baby is tongue tied, I'd wait til the clotting kicks in (after about 8 days), and then get it fixed. A pediatrician can order it, or do it themselves, I think. (Don't know much about that.)

[hunnybumm]

I have no other choices for care providers. It would either be this BC with these MWs or an OB in a hospital. But I am 36 weeks so it is a little late, and I won't change providers given my choices.

The tongue tied issue is HUGE for me because of what happened with my DS. He was tongue tied and no one realized it until he was 10 days old. It was a big stress on us and our nursing relationship. From the research I have done (well after my son was clipped) I feel haveing the tongue clipped is the best option for the breastfeeding relationship. IMHO it is not very painful if done when the child is a newborn (before the skin has a chance to thicken) and it is worth it to save the BFing relationship.

My son kept losing weight and no one could figure out why. He was nursing well, or at least I thought he was, I was so stressed, constatly crying, depressed, etc. thinking that I wasn't BFing correctly, or that something was wrong with my son. Once they clipped his tongue he started gaining weight and had no other issues with nursing. There is no way I would wait that long to have any other babies tongues clipped, to me it's not worth not having it done (hope that makes sence).

Plus, with so many other problems that can happen in a nursing relationship I wouldn't want to assume the reason we were having issues was because the baby was tongue tied, then when it got clipped and things didn't improve. I would feel like I wasted those 8 - 10 days and what a set back that would be.

Also, I don't know the chances of any other children being tongue tied, but I do know that if you have 1 one child who is tongue tied then your chances are greater of having another who is tongue tied. So I am trying to prepare myself for this baby being tongue tied, if not then the Vit K won't even be an issue... but I want to be prepared.

Also, I am sure I could easily schedule an appointment at my Peds office to have the babies tongue clipped. But I don't know if they would refuse until the baby is 8 - 10 days old for the same reason the MW wouldn't do it. Plus when DS had his clipped there was only 1 Ped who could do it, and we got super lucky that he was at work the day after we found out and was able to do the produre. Heck, I would even be tempted to clip it myself if no one will do it.

[anonymommy]

I agree with hunnybumm on the tongue tie & getting it done early early early. I have had one tongue tie baby and do not do Vitamin K. In a subsequent pregnancy, I would take oral vitamin K supplements myself in late pregnancy (or possibly just loads of alfalfa) and have it cut ASAP if my baby has a tight frenulum. As a possible solution to the unlikely but real possibility of another tt problem, can you find someone to come to your house and cut it right after discharge from the BC? Maybe a homebirth midwife? Or would you be willing to do it yourself -- get a pair of really sharp medical scissors?

[littlemomma]

From my research on the issue, I've found that the link to cancer has not been supported by further studies.

I wouldn't worry about the whole tongue-tied thing. It is not that common at all.

I am doing oral vitamin K. I bought it online (I can give you the link if you want it). Can't remember the exact dosage, but you give one drop at birth, one 2 weeks later, and one 6 weeks...or something like that. My point is that you could consider oral administration still. THEY don't have to do it. You can do it yourself. Not a big deal.

Just some thoughts.

[hunnybumm]

I have looked into the oral Vit K but I wouldn't do that unless I saw a real need for it. And from what that MW said they wouldn't accept the oral Vit K, therefor they wouldn't clip the babies tongue even if I did the oral. I guess my main concern is the tongue clipping, which I want done asap if this baby is tongue tied. I don't know what I will do, but I guess I just have to think about it. Hopefully I still have a month or so.

[sapphire_chan]

Find a couple of peds who're able to do the clipping? Then, if you need to you can call up for an appointment right after the birth.

[hunnybumm]

Well, I know the main ped at our peds office does clippings, he did my sons 2 years ago. There may even be other peds at the office who do it now as well, but at that time it was only the one ped. That is definitly something I have been considering. I am just going to go with my gut and do what feels right.

[Panserbjorne]

I always do vitamin K in the form of alfalfa (in a tea) in my third trimester-helps with postpartum bleeding and gives the babe a good amount as well.

[homemademomma]

you could clip the babes tongue yourself if the baby is tongue tied. its really easy (i learned how in school but have never done it). i agree that snipping the frenulum is much preferable to a rocky and stressful beginning to bfeeding (for baby and mom)

if you nurse immediately afterward the tongue/jaw muscles will help ligate the cut vessels and slow bleeding.

[hunnybumm]

Originally Posted by homemademomma

you could clip the babes tongue yourself if the baby is tongue tied. its really easy (i learned how in school but have never done it). i agree that snipping the frenulum is much preferable to a rocky and stressful beginning to bfeeding (for baby and mom)

if you nurse immediately afterward the tongue/jaw muscles will help ligate the cut vessels and slow bleeding.

Yeah, when DS had his clipped the nurse handed him to me to nurse. I never saw any blood, but DH said he bled a couple drops. If the MWs won't clip it, and the doctor won't, and we are having issues, then I would have no problem attempting it myself, with DHs assistance. I would just rather not.

[LeosMama]

I wish I could find the article, but I just read one where the doctors were trying to prove that leaving the baby attached to the umbilical cord for longer was detrimental to them. So they tested babies that were left attached for 3 minutes postpartum and babies that were cut from the cord within 30 seconds and given a vit K shot. They compared the clotting factors in the two groups and the clotting factors were the same!! The study was forced to conclude that there was no identified harm to leaving the baby on the cord for 3 minutes.
So an alternative to vit K for me will be to leave the baby on the cord until it stops pulsating, then I know s/he will have gotten all the blood and oxygen and clotting factors from me that s/he can.

[LeosMama]

And BTW, I know I'm ignorant but...

hemorrhage from the frenulum?

is right

[hunnybumm]

Originally Posted by LeosMama

And BTW, I know I'm ignorant but...

hemorrhage from the frenulum?

is right

Yeah, I had to try hard not to roll my eyes when she said that.

Also, I have already talked to the MWs and have asked to not have the cord cut until the placenta has been delivered. They are ok with that as long as everything is ok (ie baby is ok and I am ok). As regular policy they don't cut the cord until it has stopped pulsing, but I would much rather wait until my body has birthed the placenta to make sure it's competely done with it. My LLL mentioned "Well how do you decided when it has stopped pulsing? It can be subjective." So I decided wait until it was delivered.

[Thmom]

I agree the likely hood of hemorraging from the frenulum, I can't imagine how small that number must be LOL

worse case I'd see if your ped will do the clip without the vit K, if he won't then I'd ask him to administer oral Vit K and do the clipping... Absolute worse case I'd do it myself, but since I personally have never researched how to do it, I'd be very uncomfortable would have to find away of testing my skill before doing it on my baby kwim...

[MamaTaraX]

vit K is only really indicated if the mother has clotting problems or if the baby is going to have surgery soon after birth (as in within a few days). We did Vit. K with our first because he was circ'd. The second was not and we did not do Vit K. This baby isn't getting Vit K either. For what its worth, Vit K isn't that terrible a thing. It's a vitamin. If you are worried about giving the baby a shot, they can nurse while it is done. With my 2nd we did PKU while he nursed and he didn't even notice, too blissed out on mama milk. I remember reading somewhere about Vit K and cancer but you know what? So many people get cancer and there's just no ryhme or reason to it that that doesn't bother me much. We live in a world filled with smog and uncool smokers and toxins in our foods...a vitamin shot at birth is probably the least of our worries.

Namaste, Tara

[jenny-g]

Does anyone know if the Vit K shot has mercury in it? That would be my only concern. I really don't think it's a big deal as long as the shot doesn't have Other Bad Things in it, and I"d probably also ask for a half dose if they forced me to do it. I like the idea of the oral administration also, but it is the same stuff, so it's not really that different. My main worry is that the dose would be too high for smaller babies.

And, oh my GOD, don't clip the tongue yourself. Good Lord!!! What you knick it a little too far and it bleeds all over the place?! And could you actually bear to do that? I think that.. well, I think that's just terrible. If I found out someone cut their kid with scissors intentionally, (I'm sure we'll all miss with the nail clippers/scissors once in a while, though!) I'd think pretty terrible thoughts about them. My husband has a tongue tie, never had it clipped- but I'll bet he wasn't breastfed, either. If my kid has it, I'll definitely get it clipped as well. By someone who knows what they are doing!! It's not a nothing process, and if done incorrectly, can have effects on their speech later in life. And, well.. having your tongue tied can affect things later in life like.. kissing. Seriously. Sounds goofy, but it's not.

I"ll bet if you wait a few days, the ped won't even ask about the vit K. And if they push it, you can do the oral route.. (and give less than the recommended dose). -j

[jenny-g]

Allright, I decided not to be lazy and look it up myself. There is no mercury in the vit K shot, but there is a small amount of Benzyl alcohol as a preservative. That's not the best thing in the world, but it is only a small amount. Dammit, if they process these things in single-use syringes, why do they need preservative at all? That's irritating. (literally!)

I wonder what preservatives are in the oral preparation. I've read that sometimes, twice the amount is given orally vs. injected, of the injection solution (AquaMEPHYTON)- but then, they are also getting twice the preservative, orally. Other than the preservative, it seems most of the problems with this shot are if it's given in an IV (BAD) vs in the muscle or under the skin.

If anyone has purchased a different oral vit K solution (other than AquaMEPHYTON), can they list what the other ingredients are? I'd like to go the Route With Least Preservatives, if possible. My family *does* have history of clotting problems (my dad had ITP severely), so the vit K may be a bigger issue for us than for someone else. -j

[MamaTaraX]

Vit K takes better when given intramuscularly than orally, that's why it is oftengiven in two oral doses. But yes, it's the exact same stuff, they just put it in theirmouths instead of inject through a syringe.

Namaste, Tara