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Would you get divorced over it? - Page 2

post #21 of 96
Jenna,

My DH is Jewish & DS is intact. We had a lovely, peaceful Brit Shalom ceremony with a Rabbi in lieu of the Bris. I am thankful everyday that DS is intact, especially the more I learn about circumcision. DH needed to do a lot of reading to become convinced not to circ, but he too is 100% clear that we made the right decision.

About Brit Shalom
Brit Without Milah

I have several links I've collected for Jewish friends...maybe some of these will help.

I especially like the book "Questioning Circumcision: A Jewish Perspective"

Top 10 Values of Judaism
(click on "Jewish" link on left side, then on "Top 10" link at top right)
http://www.jewsagainstcircumcision.org/

Jewish Circ Info

Circumcision: A Source of Jewish Pain

Letter from Dr. Jenny Goodman

A Mother Questions Brit Milla

Circumcision: A Jewish Feminist Perspective

Mothering Magazine Article - Fleiss

Separated At Birth

Anatomy of the Penis, Mechanics of Intercourse

How Male Circumcision May be Affecting Your Love Life

Video - Whose Body, Whose Rights?

Circ Video - Intact's Circumcision Video Online

___________________________________
SAHM to a spectacular little boy, born 5/2003 :bf Feb 2006!
"When you teach your son, you teach your son's son." ~ The Talmud
post #22 of 96
Yes, in fact I told him so when I was 5 mos pg with ds1 and dh and I had a screaming argument about our first child being circumcised or not. I told him I would leave him and he would never see the baby if he insisted on this. This made him see how serious I was and he finally agreed to read the material I had. The material changed his mind.

Regarding putting your husband's name on the birth certificate: most states presume that a child BORN while parents are married is issue of the marriage (is the husband's child). But, if you divorced before the child was born, you would not have to put dh on the birth certificate. I had a case like this once.

I know it is tough. Your dh is operating under some delusions: 1, that an uncircumcised child is not Jewish. This is simply not true, and rabbis say so. 2, that circumcision is healthful. Again, not true. Circumcision removes healthy and happy flesh. 3, that he was circ'ed and he is fine. Again, simply not true. Did you know victims of female circumcision in Africa say that they have good sex lives and orgasm without having clitorises? Yet would you choose to live without yours? Of course not. Yet your dh is missing the best part of his penis and so he is not qualified to say that it is okay to not have it. He doesn't even know.

Saying something louder and not listening to the other side does not make a person right. In fact, if he is unable to listen to your side, then that means his side is very weak. If he had good reasons to circumcise your child, he would be able to present them to you and not be worried. But he can't, and no matter what he finds to argue for circumcision, there will always be a better reason not to. Tell us what he says and we will tell you the answers.
post #23 of 96
I'm so sorry about the loss of your daughter. I hear that when people lose a child, the liklihood of divorce goes way up. Could his refusal to put off the circ be a projection of this?

My SO is Muslim and I've made it clear that if we ever have a son there will be no one cutting my baby. But I don't know if he's really thinking about it since we're not planning.

Still, if he did it against my wishes, I don't think I'd leave him. I'd hate him for a long time, though. If he did it, it would be out of (misguided IMO) love. I think if we ever do end up pregnant, I'll insist that we let the child decide.

I hope the two of you can stay together despite the tragic loss of your baby. Please get counselling if you haven't already. It might save the marriage.
post #24 of 96
Oh, sweetie, I just read your websites. I know you have it in you to fight for your son's right to bodily integrity. Just never, ever, ever let anyone take him out of your arms. Be ready to kick scream and bite. It is absolutely your right to do whatever it takes to protect your baby. Get in touch with your mama bear self.
post #25 of 96
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MAMom
Jenna,

My DH is Jewish & DS is intact. We had a lovely, peaceful Brit Shalom ceremony with a Rabbi in lieu of the Bris. I am thankful everyday that DS is intact, especially the more I learn about circumcision. DH needed to do a lot of reading to become convinced not to circ, but he too is 100% clear that we made the right decision.

About Brit Shalom
Brit Without Milah

I have several links I've collected for Jewish friends...maybe some of these will help.

I especially like the book "Questioning Circumcision: A Jewish Perspective"

Top 10 Values of Judaism
(click on "Jewish" link on left side, then on "Top 10" link at top right)
http://www.jewsagainstcircumcision.org/

Jewish Circ Info

Circumcision: A Source of Jewish Pain

Letter from Dr. Jenny Goodman

A Mother Questions Brit Milla

Circumcision: A Jewish Feminist Perspective

Mothering Magazine Article - Fleiss

Separated At Birth

Anatomy of the Penis, Mechanics of Intercourse

How Male Circumcision May be Affecting Your Love Life

Video - Whose Body, Whose Rights?

Circ Video - Intact's Circumcision Video Online

___________________________________
SAHM to a spectacular little boy, born 5/2003 :bf Feb 2006!
"When you teach your son, you teach your son's son." ~ The Talmud

Thank you so much for all of those links. I just emailed them to him - I just hope that he looks.

I have mde up my mind that there is no way he is going to bully me into this, no matter what the costs.

I know in my heart that our marriage would be over the minute a hand was laid on this baby anyway - and better that he have a broken home and be intact than have a broken home and be circ.

Thank you all so much for the support. We keep a pregnancy journal and the comments have been piling up there as well - and i KNOW that he reads those... so I just hope that something clicks in his head before April.

If you have a moment to leave your thoguhts for him to see, I would be very greatful.

warmly,
jenna

www.girl138.com/peanut
post #26 of 96
I left a comment on your blog.

My heart goes out to you, for the loss of your daughter, and for the fear you have right now. Your son is due on my birthday
I know this is hard, but you have to stand up for your son. You have to be his voice while he has none.
Let us know your husband's reaction to the links.

And for the record, yes, I would get a divorce over the issue. If I allowed myself to be bullied by him, or if he had it done while knowing my feelings on it, I would resent him for the rest of my life. I couldn't get over something like that. I would have to go.
post #27 of 96
Jenna, here's an article for you (not your dh) to read, that may help you understand where he's coming from:

Vincent Bach on the Vulnerability of Men

I am sure your dh doesn't want to cause you or your baby any pain, but he's probably got a lot of layers of denial covering any ability to recognize that circumcision is painful and unnecessary. There's at least three layers of denial:

1) That his/your religion requires it and therefore it's got to be fine because Jews have been circing for several thousand years.

2) That his parents had him circed and he probably doesn't want to think they could ever have done anything to harm him.

3) That he is circed and is therefore missing the most sensitive part of his penis. No man alive wants to admit that his penis is anything less than 100% operational.

I didn't have to deal with the religious aspect but I do have a circed dh who, after reading what I've told him to read and watching the video STILL thinks that "well, circ isn't the worst thing that could happen to a baby and it's a parent's right." He didn't fight me on circing our son and wouldn't circ any future sons if I were to die tomorrow and he were to remarry, he advocated to try to keep our nephew from getting circed by talking to my BIL and SIL....but he still at some fundamental level just. doesn't. get. it. The denial that a) his parents could have done something harmful to him and b) that his penis is anything less than it could or should be is still SO deep, even after 3.5 years of hearing me rant and rave about circ.

I am not saying for one second you should give in on the circ issue, but try listening to your dh with compassion for the baby he was getting circed against his will and the man he is hearing (implicitly) that there's something "less than" about his penis and you may be able to find the way to his heart on this issue, short of pulling out the big guns of "I'm leaving."

I wish I could help ease your burden on this. No pregnant woman should have to go through this trauma, let alone you, pregnant and grieving at the same time. Please be very gentle with yourself right now. It's OK even to take a break from the issue for a little while if it's making you too sad or mad or crazy. Whatever you need to do for yourself, do.
post #28 of 96
It sounds like you are going through such a very difficult time. Maybe you and your husband could see someone together? I can not imagine how frightened and anxious and excited you both must be to receive this child after you lost your daughter.

You both are probably not able to clearly hear oneanother on this topic as it can be so hard for couples to come eye to eye when feeling so fearful.

I think that if you can see someone together to help you both communicate and hear he may come to see how important this issue is for you. To answer the question of divorce, I do not see circ as a reason to divorce. But I do think that the pattern of not listening to what you are saying or understanding your fear could be really isolating and could lead to divorce. My hubby and I do not fundamentally agree about circ, however he knows that I feel very very strongly about not circumcising. Because he loves me and because he knows how important the issue is to me he will not have the children circed.


We had to leave the topic for a while ourselves. I would say deal with the communication and Isolation and he will probably come around.

Im sorry, it must be so hard to be missing your daughter, welcoming a new child, and dealing with this.

hang in there mama.
post #29 of 96
This is a hypothetical question that was not hypothetical for me.

I was engaged to be married to a wonderful woman in June, 2002. She had a grandson that was born in Oct., 2001. I fought intensely before he was born not to have him circumcised but the Mother (future DIL) would hear nothing of it. She would even hang up on my phone calls, wouldn't read links or printed material I sent her. I knew that she would never be a welcome guest in my home. From before his birth to March, 2002, when I ended the engagement, my fiance' and I fought bitterly over this. This was the third fight we had had in almost 6 years of being together and the only one that lasted more than a couple of days. She still has not seen the light and I suspect she never will. I can not be married to a woman like that and will not. We are still friends but we carefully avoid bringing up the subject but marriage or any kind of intimate relationship is completely off the table and not up for discussion.

As intensely as I feel about this issue, I don't think I could have a meaninful relationship with a woman who didn't have the same stance.



Frank
post #30 of 96
I am not Jewish but my DH tried to use the excuse "It is a tradition in my family to circ" to which I replied "It is not a tradition, it is because they didn't know NOT to do it!!"

But yes, I would leave my DH to protect my son from circing. The needs of my child come before the wants of my husband every day of the year. DH knows this and though he is not happy about the not circing thing, he didn't argue with me about it. I told him I was seriously concerned that he could send his son to have comestic surgery without pain relief so flippantly.
post #31 of 96
I would divorce over this. Well, if I knew before-hand that the fellow was dead-set on cutting the genitals of our future babies, the wedding would be off, no doubt.

I left a comment on your journal - don't back down on this, Mama, you can protect Peanut!



-Kira
post #32 of 96
NO I would not divorce over it. An intact penis is important but an intact family and peace in the home is far more important. Also your dh will no doubt get 50/50 custody and have full rights to seek medical treatment. If it is important enough for your dh to accept a divorce it will be importqant enough for him to march your son right down to the Dr. office and have it done the first visitation he has. what makes you think the judge will be anti-circ enough to issue some sort of decree that you win this one? It is a big risk to stake your marriage on when in the end your son will probably still end up circ'ed. And whos to even say you will get 50/50 custody. Your dh may get full custody and you get stuck with crappy visitation. Circ is not a crime, not considered abuse legally, You would be the one walking out, breaking up the family over an opinion about your sons religous upbringing (which is likely what this will be considered). it is likely that if you walk over this you may lose more than your sons forskin. Just really think about what is important before deciding this is worth divorcing over. it isn't garunteed that you and your son would get to go off and live a happy little life together. it could cost you everything. I am not trying to scare you but this is not your son./ This is you and your husbands son. You both are on equal footing legally and you both have just as much chance of getting custody of him. and you both get to choose whathappens to him in his upbringing.

I agree you should seek counseling.
post #33 of 96
Lilyka, by 50/50 custody, do you mean in terms of decision making? This is called joint custody and yes, it is often awarded by the courts. "Shared custody," or having the child live equally in two homes, is done more rarely. Around here it is not done unless both parties agree, as having the child live in one primary residence is considered to be a more stable option.

In a joint custody arrangement, which is what my babydaddy and I have, my understanding is that both parties have to agree about major issues, such as education, religion, health care. In my agreement, if I were seeking a medical procedure, such as circumcision for my child, my babydaddy would have to agree. If he did not, we would have to go to court to figure it out.

Let's not scare the crap out of this mother with information that is not accurate, shall we?

Ftr, I am not the world's biggest "intactivist," and a lot of the stuff in this forum I find borderline offensive. But I would not allow my child's foreskin to be cut off. And yes I would divorce over it.
post #34 of 96
I would not cut a part of my baby off for marital harmony. If my dh did it behind my back our relationship would be over. How could I stay with a man who would do that to our baby and against my wishes? So yes I would divorce over circumcision, not violating my babies body is that important to me.
I truly hope your dh will realize how important keeping your baby whole is to you and will do his own research and ultimately agree with you. Much much luck to you!!
post #35 of 96
I am just saying divorce does not even come close to meaning she will defintiely get her way. It is not a solution to this. You don't just walk away from a parent who has equal rights or could posible get more rights in a custody situation. Daddy and his opinions, rights and what not do not just disappear. Yet people are talking like a divore would automatically protect the child somehow. All i see is it making a child more vunreable. Calling an end to the marriage in no ways garuntees the baby won't get cicumcised. It garuntees nothing. She can't even garuntee she will get custody. It is evey bit as likely that a judge will decide in favor of the dad. What after all has the dad done that is so out of the ordinary? Divorce, sharing your child, loosing the measure of control is scary.
post #36 of 96
I'm so sorry for your loss!

On very rare occasions, babies do die after circ due to the loss of blood. So, you have every right to be concerned.

You asked if I would get divorced over it--yes, if it came to that. But first I would just say IT WILL NOT HAPPEN, OVER MY DEAD BODY, and let a divorce happen if it came to that, but I wouldn't actively push for a divorce except as a last resort.

Once your dh sees that you ABSOLUTELY MEAN IT, and you WOULD be willing to get divorced over it, he'll most likely back down.
post #37 of 96
I agree with a lot of the others. An intact penis is important, but an intact family is far more important. I grew up with a very broken family and it's had lasting effects. DH grew up with a circumcised penis and couldn't care less about it (though he does agree that we won't circ. our sons). I think your son would be much more upset that you took away his chance for a father who is there with him all the time, than for the fact of getting him circumcised, especially, since in your husband's mind it's for a religious reason.

I think your situation is very hard. Maybe once you explain to your husband the negative effects of it, and that some children do die from it, although it's very very rare, that that terrifies you, and that you just cannot make yourself do it right now. Talk to him possibly about waiting until the child is older (by then would he forget about it, or lose interest in getting it done?), or some alternative.

I'll definitely keep your family in my prayers. Hopefully you and your husband can come to the right decision for your family together!
post #38 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiffer23
An intact penis is important, but an intact family is far more important.

I think your son would be much more upset that you took away his chance for a father who is there with him all the time, than for the fact of getting him circumcised, especially, since in your husband's mind it's for a religious reason.
Exactly!! That sums it up perfectly!!
post #39 of 96
Thread Starter 
I just feel like i need to clarify something. I would not threaten or want to get a divorce - ever. It's just that when I try to discuss my opposition to this with my husband he threatens me that it will be the end of our marriage if i don't fold.

honestly, i don't care anymore. i am not willing to risk the health of this baby for anything. i can't bring myself to do that no matter what the cost, not after losing my Jordana.
post #40 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by girl138
I just feel like i need to clarify something. I would not threaten or want to get a divorce - ever. It's just that when I try to discuss my opposition to this with my husband he threatens me that it will be the end of our marriage if i don't fold.

honestly, i don't care anymore. i am not willing to risk the health of this baby for anything. i can't bring myself to do that no matter what the cost, not after losing my Jordana.

I am so sorry you lost your precious daughter. I am also very sorry your dh is trying to bully you into circing your son, that is just not right. You and your son will be in my thoughts.


As soon as my dh violated our son our family would no longer be intact anyway . My marriage would be over wether I physically left or not.
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