Do you feel weird lying to the kids (re:santa)? - Page 5

[Periwinkle]

Originally Posted by Deva33mommy

But telling children that santa is a real person, that a guy named Santa brings them gifts on Christmas is entirely untrue. Any gifts they get come from parents, family, friends, maybe strangers- but definitely NOT a guy named Santa who lives at the North Pole and has flying reindeer. I stand by what I said- that stuff is a lie. Its not true. WE (adults) *know* that doesn't happen.
Now, the ideas that "Santa" stands for, are indeed "real" and "true." But that doesn't make it true to say that he is a real live person, that comes down your chimney.
Telling your kids that Santa is a representation of kindness and giving? Not a lie. Its not a lie to tell them that YOU believe in Santa (if you do, in whatever form), if you don't tell them "he comes to our house, on his sleigh, with gifts"

I'm not saying that its BAD to do Santa. If you do choose to tell kids Santa is a real person, and even go out of your way to eat the cookies to "prove" that he was there, it's whatever floats your boat. Its a different type of lie. A justified lie. Its not a bad thing, and I'm sure some people have wonderful memories of Santa, and are happy that their parents told them it was true.

I guess I just really don't understand how people can insist that telling kids that Santa is real (that a guy named Santa brings presents to all kids in the world, in a sleigh, with flying reindeer, and eats the cookies as proof that he was there) is telling the truth, that its not lying, or deceptive, or untrue.

: Well said.

lie2 (lī)
n.
1. A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood.
2. Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression.

It is false that a man named Santa Claus delivers all the world's Christmas presents on Christmas night, by traveling in his sleigh pulled by reindeer that goes flying through the sky and lands on the roof and he comes down the chimney with the presents in his sack.

But this exact story is presented as being true by many, many parents.

Therefore, it is a lie.



Logic doesn't lie.

[Jster]

Originally Posted by Fiercemama

Just because something is not "real" does not mean that it is not true.

DH thinks Santa is a lie too. Last year I sat him down and read him "Yes Virginia, There Is a Santa Claus". It sums up my feelings perfectly.

"(Originally published in The New York Sun in 1897.) We take pleasure in answering thus prominently the communication below, expressing at the same time our great gratification that its faithful author is numbered among the friends of The Sun:

Dear Editor—I am 8 years old. Some of my little friends say there is no Santa Claus. Papa says, “If you see it in The Sun, it’s so.” Please tell me the truth, is there a Santa Claus?

Virginia O’Hanlon

Virginia, your little friends are wrong. They have been affected by the skepticism of a skeptical age. They do not believe except they see. They think that nothing can be which is not comprehensible by their little minds. All minds, Virginia, whether they be men’s or children’s, are little. In this great universe of ours, man is a mere insect, an ant, in his intellect as compared with the boundless world about him, as measured by the intelligence capable of grasping the whole of truth and knowledge.

Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus. He exists as certainly as love and generosity and devotion exist, and you know that they abound and give to your life its highest beauty and joy. Alas! how dreary would be the world if there were no Santa Claus! It would be as dreary as if there were no Virginias. There would be no childlike faith then, no poetry, no romance to make tolerable this existence. We should have no enjoyment, except in sense and sight. The external light with which childhood fills the world would be extinguished.

Not believe in Santa Claus! You might as well not believe in fairies. You might get your papa to hire men to watch in all the chimneys on Christmas eve to catch Santa Claus, but even if you did not see Santa Claus coming down, what would that prove? Nobody sees Santa Claus, but that is no sign that there is no Santa Claus. The most real things in the world are those that neither children nor men can see. Did you ever see fairies dancing on the lawn? Of course not, but that’s no proof that they are not there. Nobody can conceive or imagine all the wonders there are unseen and unseeable in the world.

You tear apart the baby’s rattle and see what makes the noise inside, but there is a veil covering the unseen world which not the strongest man, nor even the united strength of all the strongest men that ever lived could tear apart. Only faith, poetry, love, romance, can push aside that curtain and view and picture the supernal beauty and glory beyond. Is it all real? Ah, Virginia, in all this world there is nothing else real and abiding.

No Santa Claus! Thank God! he lives and lives forever. A thousand years from now, Virginia, nay 10 times 10,000 years from now, he will continue to make glad the heart of childhood."

thank you so much for sharing this! It really sums up how I feel, and no matter the naysayers who nitpick over details, well, I think we'll all just have to disagree. It's a matter of faith, in some ways, faith that the world is more complex than we understand. I can accept that, and when my daughters wonder about amazing, implausible, unprovable things, I'm happy to wonder with them.

I do dislike how the Santa myth has been overcome by commercialism, but to me that is not really a reason to dismiss it, just to carefully redefine it and bring it back to its roots. Just like when I work on my understanding of my Christian beliefs, and have to reconcile with how unChristian I see so many people, well, it's just something I have to teach my daughter as best I can. I don't lie to her, lying really is intentional and deceptive...I participate with her.

It's okay if others see it as lying, heck, there are lots of ways people can disagree. But I really do hope you won't imply that other people lie to their kids, even that implication is dangerous to your own child, as well as their faith and trust in the world. It's possible to follow your own view in your own family without having to condemn or comment on others. At least, I'd hope so

[dharmamama]

Originally Posted by Fiercemama

Dear Editor—I am 8 years old. Some of my little friends say there is no Santa Claus. Papa says, “If you see it in The Sun, it’s so.” Please tell me the truth, is there a Santa Claus?

Virginia O’Hanlon

Virginia, your little friends are wrong. They have been affected by the skepticism of a skeptical age. They do not believe except they see. They think that nothing can be which is not comprehensible by their little minds. All minds, Virginia, whether they be men’s or children’s, are little. In this great universe of ours, man is a mere insect, an ant, in his intellect as compared with the boundless world about him, as measured by the intelligence capable of grasping the whole of truth and knowledge...

This has always REALLY bugged me. An eight-year-old child asked a question of someone she was told was an authority figure, and she expected the truth. She wasn't three, where distinguishing fantasy from reality is a fuzzy line. She wasn't five and asking the question hoping that her parents would tell her there really is a Santa even though she's beginning to suspect there isn't. She was eight, and she was asking a question. The answer given was not an answer to for an eight-year-old child, it was an answer for adults. It's a nice answer, but it completely missed the point.

Namaste!

[Jster]

Originally Posted by dharmamama

This has always REALLY bugged me. An eight-year-old child asked a question of someone she was told was an authority figure, and she expected the truth. She wasn't three, where distinguishing fantasy from reality is a fuzzy line. She wasn't five and asking the question hoping that her parents would tell her there really is a Santa even though she's beginning to suspect there isn't. She was eight, and she was asking a question. The answer given was not an answer to for an eight-year-old child, it was an answer for adults. It's a nice answer, but it completely missed the point.

Namaste!

Hmmm, how was she not given the answer? The answer is that Santa is a matter of faith, and that just because others are skeptical, she doesn't have to follow other people's skepticism. That she can have faith in something she doesn't actually see. Seems like a perfectly good answer to me.

What really always bugs me about this (besides the equation between Santa's gifts and goodness, thereby measuring up our goodness in consumeristic ways) is that so often there is peer pressure involved to "not believe" in Santa. Why is that? Why do 8yo's go around trying to force their friends not to believe in Santa...and would we feel as comfortable if their friends were trying to force them not to believe in God? Atoms? Evolution? Why is it okay that kids do this and that adults encourage condemnation rather than acceptance of personal beliefs? I wish adults would step up to the plate more and say that regardless of whether someone believes differently than I do, or my children do, they have a right to their belief. :

[RubyWild]

I play pretend with my Dd everyday. I make her cereal spoon talk to her and tell her to eat. I make the cat talk to her and tell her to "give me pets." We pretend, and pretend, and pretend. It's a magical age, and that's exactly what I remember about Santa - the magic! I'm giving my Dd the same magic.

I told her I ran into Santa at the toystore and he gave me the Advent calendar. This is sooooo thrilling to my Dd and she shares this magic with anyone who will listen.

My Dd will grow to know the difference between a lie and pretend, even if some adults have forgotten.

[dharmamama]

Originally Posted by Jster

Hmmm, how was she not given the answer? The answer is that Santa is a matter of faith

The answer she wanted was whether or not there is a Santa Claus. There is no real man named Santa Cluas who drives a real sleigh and comes down people's chimneys. That's what she wanted to know. Not whether there is a spirit of Santa or whether people live in a skeptical age or whether it's ok to believe in Santa even when her friends don't. She wanted to know whether The Man Santa is a living being. He's not.

I remember being young and asking questions and getting what adults thought was a very meaningful philosophical answer. It just pissed me off, because I wanted a straight answer.

I can't imagine 8-year-old Virginia O'Hanlon reading that answer and thinking, "Now I know for sure!"

Namaste!

[DevaMajka]

Originally Posted by Jster

It really sums up how I feel, and no matter the naysayers who nitpick over details, well, I think we'll all just have to disagree. It's a matter of faith, in some ways, faith that the world is more complex than we understand. I can accept that, and when my daughters wonder about amazing, implausible, unprovable things, I'm happy to wonder with them.

I fail to see how it is nitpicking for me to say that *there is NO man named Santa Clause who brings us Christmas presents every year* If you tell your child that there is, then you are lying to them. That is different than telling them about the spirit of Santa, or telling them that YOU believe in Santa, or that there's no way to prove for sure that Santa doesn't exist. That stuff is all true. But you know for a fact, that Santa *the real live man* doesn't bring presents to your house. That's not a matter of faith, or an unprovable thing (like Santa simply existing). You KNOW that there is no real live person named Santa who comes to everyone's house on Dec 24. (Not you specifically, you being everyone who tells their kids Santa is real). And you're telling your child that, as if it were true.
And the difference between telling kids Santa is a real person and playing make believe with them, is what a pp said- in the latter, they are "in on the game". They know that the hot dog (from Joline's example ) is not real. They know that they won't be full after they eat it. I can hardly imagine a mother trying to prove to her kids that the hotdog was indeed real. Playing along with a child who knows that the game is make believe is different than telling them that something is TRUE when it is not, and they have no way of knowing the truth, except from you.
I'll say it again, I'm not argueing that it's good or bad to do Santa. To each his own. Even to me, it's a different type of lie. I'm just saying that I have tried, and I cannot see how it's possibly not lying to tell a child that a man comes down your chimney to bring presents.
But I'm sure you can't figure out how I and others are so adamant that it IS lying. So...lol I guess you're right. We'll just have to agree to disagree, and know that we're all doing what we feel is best for our kids.

oh, and I have to say that, because of this thread, I definitely see the difference between saying Santa is a real person, and saying that Santa is real (in spirit, or whatever). I hadn't seen that distinction before.

[Ravin]

It's a GAME. Lighten up.

[mamawanabe]

Originally Posted by dharmamama

The answer she wanted was whether or not there is a Santa Claus. There is no real man named Santa Cluas who drives a real sleigh and comes down people's chimneys. That's what she wanted to know. Not whether there is a spirit of Santa or whether people live in a skeptical age or whether it's ok to believe in Santa even when her friends don't. She wanted to know whether The Man Santa is a living being. He's not.

I remember being young and asking questions and getting what adults thought was a very meaningful philosophical answer. It just pissed me off, because I wanted a straight answer.

I can't imagine 8-year-old Virginia O'Hanlon reading that answer and thinking, "Now I know for sure!"

Namaste!

What we do is largly based on how we experienced Santa as a child. A better plan would be to try to respond to our children's temperments rather than our own past experience/ideology (santa is lying; santa is majic).

I think some kids are more literal, and Santa isn't going to work well for them. Some kids love ambiguity, and Santa is a wonderful experience for them (I fall into the later catagory). You clearly wanted (and still want?) strait, "ture" answers as a child. Santa wasn't a good "fit" for your temperment. Me, I LOVED (and still love) shades of gray and indetermancy. Santa was a greatfit for me and I still remember the joy of really believing in him as well as the joy of when I discovered the truth and felt let in on this big adult "secret." I loved santa and hope to do it with my kids - but if my child has a temperment not suited to ernest, adult sanctioned impossibilities, than I hope I recognize that and do the santa is a myth thing.

[dharmamama]

Originally Posted by mamawanabe

You clearly wanted (and still want?) strait, "ture" answers as a child. Santa wasn't a good "fit" for your temperment.

Actually, I loved Santa as a child. I have very fond memories of sitting up, looking out the window with my sister, trying to see Rudolph's nose up in the sky as he flew by (and we always saw it, as we lived in the flightpath of an airport). I loved finding Santa beard hair stuck in our firplace gate (and we do that for our kids with Easter Bunny tail fur). I was not upset when I found out that Santa isn't real. I had a good experience with Santa as a child, and, as I posted earlier, my problems with Santa aren't that he's a lie. I don't think telling your kids there is a Santa is wrong. Scroll back to see what my problems with Santa are.

HOWEVER, Virginia O'Hanlon DID ask for a clear answer, and she got the run-around by a sentimental adult who seemed more interested in pushing his own agenda than in actually answering the child, and I find that distasteful.

Namaste!

[UnschoolnMa]

Originally Posted by dharmamama

The answer she wanted was whether or not there is a Santa Claus. There is no real man named Santa Cluas who drives a real sleigh and comes down people's chimneys. That's what she wanted to know. Not whether there is a spirit of Santa or whether people live in a skeptical age or whether it's ok to believe in Santa even when her friends don't. She wanted to know whether The Man Santa is a living being. He's not.

I remember being young and asking questions and getting what adults thought was a very meaningful philosophical answer. It just pissed me off, because I wanted a straight answer.

I can't imagine 8-year-old Virginia O'Hanlon reading that answer and thinking, "Now I know for sure!"

Namaste!

Great post, and I totally agree!

[johub]

Originally Posted by dharmamama

The answer she wanted was whether or not there is a Santa Claus. There is no real man named Santa Cluas who drives a real sleigh and comes down people's chimneys. That's what she wanted to know. Not whether there is a spirit of Santa or whether people live in a skeptical age or whether it's ok to believe in Santa even when her friends don't. She wanted to know whether The Man Santa is a living being. He's not.

I remember being young and asking questions and getting what adults thought was a very meaningful philosophical answer. It just pissed me off, because I wanted a straight answer.

I can't imagine 8-year-old Virginia O'Hanlon reading that answer and thinking, "Now I know for sure!"

Namaste!

How can you say that the only thing she was concerned about was whether or not Santa was flesh and blood? Perhaps this is the exact answer she was asking for.
Not everybody wants a "straight answer" .
Not everybody even believes in "straight answers" .
eta. If it was me this is the exact type of answer which would have satisfied me most. Because of the Beauty of a gray answer I can go on beleiving until the end of time and decide truly for myself.

[LadyMarmalade]

Originally Posted by RubyWild

My Dd will grow to know the difference between a lie and pretend, even if some adults have forgotten.

Exactly.

Some people call Santa a lie. Others call him a myth. Then there are those who call him a legend. Have a think about the the common thread between these three. Usually they're grounded in truth but have been changed to suit the teller's needs. That's exactly what Santa is. It started off as a true story but has been changed.

In our home we focus on the true story of Santa - the historical story of the guy who wanted to share the message of Jesus, so dropped pennies down the chimneys of poor people.

That doesn't suit other families so they change it to a fat guy in a red suit who drives a sleigh powered by flying reindeer. That doesn't suit some other families, so they tell their children there's no such thing as Santa. Both of these can be devastating for children, but what matters is the way it's told. I had friends whose parents told them from the time they could talk that Santa got old and died. They were way more traumatised than any kids I know who found out when they were 5, 7, 9 or 11 that Santa was a magical myth their parents were perpetuating.

Santa isn't the focus at our house anyway - he's a minor part of the celebration. He brings one small present for each child. So it's not really an issue for us personally - I can understand why some people are torn by it though.

[LadyMarmalade]

Or you can go for the scientific approach.

Is There a Santa Clause?

1. No known species of reindeer that can fly. BUT there are 300,000 species of living organisms yet to be classified, and while most of these are insects and germs, this does not completely rule out flying reindeer (which only Santa has ever seen.)

2. There are 2 billion children (persons under 18) in the world. BUT since Santa doesn't (appear) to handle the Muslim, Hindu, Jewish and Buddhist children, that reduces the workload to 15% of the total-378 million according to Population Reference Bureau. At an average (census) rate of 3.5 children per household, that's 91.8 million homes. One presumes there's at least one good child in each.

3. Santa has 31 hours of Christmas to work with, thanks to the different time zones and the rotation of the earth, assuming he travels east to west (which seems logical). This works out to 822.6 visits per second. This is to say that for each Christian household with good children, Santa has 1/1000th of a second to park, hop out of the sleigh, jump down the chimney, fill the stockings, distribute the remaining presents under the tree, eat whatever snacks have been left, get back up the chimney, get back into the sleigh and move on to the next house. Assuming that each of these 91.8 million stops are evenly distributed around the earth (which, of course, we know to be false but for the purposes of our calculations we will accept),we are now talking about .78 miles per household, a total trip of 75-1/2 million miles, not counting stops to do what most of us must do at least once every 31 hours, plus feeding and etc. This means that Santa's sleigh is moving at 650 miles per second, 3,000 times the speed of sound. For purposes of comparison, the fastest man-made vehicle on earth, the Ulysses space probe, moves at a poky 27.4 miles per second-a conventional reindeer can run, tops, 15 miles per hour.

4. The payload on the sleigh adds another interesting element. Assuming that each child gets nothing more than a medium-sized lego set (2 pounds), the sleigh is carrying 321,300 tons, not counting Santa, who is invariably described as overweight. On land, conventional reindeer can pull no more than 300 pounds. Even granting that "flying reindeer" (see point #1) could pull TEN TIMES the normal amount, we cannot do the job with eight, or even nine. We need 214,200 reindeer. This increases the payload-not even counting the weight of the sleigh-to 353,430 tons. Again, for comparison-this is four times the weight of the Queen Elizabeth.

5. 353,000 tons traveling at 650 miles per second creates enormous air resistance-this will heat the reindeer up in the same fashion as spacecrafts re-entering the earth's atmosphere. The lead pair of reindeer will absorb 14.3 QUINTILLION joules of energy. Per second. Each. In short, they will burst into flame almost instantaneously, exposing the reindeer behind them, and create deafening sonic booms in their wake. The entire reindeer team will be vaporized within 4.26 thousandths of a second. Santa, meanwhile, will be subjected to centrifugal forces 17,500.06 times greater than gravity. A 250-pound Santa (which seems ludicrously slim) would be pinned to the back of his sleigh by 4,315,015 pounds of force.

In conclusion: If Santa ever DID deliver presents on Christmas Eve, he's dead now.

[boongirl]

Originally Posted by Deva33mommy

And the difference between telling kids Santa is a real person and playing make believe with them, is what a pp said- in the latter, they are "in on the game".

My 2 year old truly believes that her winnie the pooh puppet CAN talk. (this is while I am wearing it on my arm and clearly doing the talking) She believes Heffalumps exist. She believes Peter Rabbit wears a little blue coat. She asks me all the time where Nemo's father is since Nemo clearly lives in our house. And, she is learning about Santa for the first time. We tell her that there is one Santa at the north pole with all the flying rudolfs and elves and the ones around town are just his messengers. I fail to see how this is any different from pretending that Winnie the pooh really does live in the 100 acre wood. It is all pretend.

I agree with Ravin

It's a GAME. Lighten up.

I have two problems with Santa: the commercialization of christmas is disgusting to me and I dislike the little kids who come to school and spoil the fun for the rest because "my mommy said Santa is a lie." Now that sucks!

[joandsarah77]

In conclusion: If Santa ever DID deliver presents on Christmas Eve, he's dead now.

: Those 'facts' forget that Santa is in a time warp, and he only has one small sack in which presants just keep apearing! Don't you watch 'The Santa Clause' movies? Santa can even pull a canoe outta that sack!

[*Lisa*]

I dislike the little kids who come to school and spoil the fun for the rest because "my mommy said Santa is a lie." Now that sucks!

Um... If it's just a game, and your kids believe things whether they're real or not (e.g., Winnie the Pooh really does talk), then how does a kid coming to school saying that spoil the fun for anybody?

Would you feel any better if the kid came to school and said "My mommy said that Santa is just pretend?" This is a serious question, by the way... I wouldn't encourage my child to tell other kids either that Santa is a lie or pretend, but if the "just pretend" answer spoils things "for the rest" just the same as the "just a lie" answer, then it seems like it's well beyond a pretend game, if that makes any sense.

[LadyMarmalade]

Originally Posted by joandsarah77

: Those 'facts' forget that Santa is in a time warp, and he only has one small sack in which presants just keep apearing! Don't you watch 'The Santa Clause' movies? Santa can even pull a canoe outta that sack!

Ah, you got me on that one!!

[boomingranny]

I don't take the "Santa is Lying" thing very seriously. My dd beleives in Santa however she has transitioned from beleiving in him literally to understanding that he is the personification of generousity and sharing during this dark cold time of year, spreading light and good cheer. She knows where the presents come from literally. She didn't suffer massive trauma - she doesn't have to go to play therapy because of this "lie", nor does she not trust me. I'm already a big teller of tall tales, and she's always had an amazing repetoire of imaginary friends. She and I are big imagination people so myths, fairy tales and fantasy are a big part of our lives. Also, the allegorical aspect of these fantasms are very instructive.

Ho ho ho

June

[RedWine]

Caloi,

Great post!