College classes for the very young?

[boysrus]

My 8 (almost 9 yo) is academically gifted. I posted about his quantum physics interest. He is also at a very advanced level in history, botany, prehistory, reading, I don't know what else.
I began talking to him about going to college in the next few years. He wants to. He needs to work on communication skills, typing, composition, math, and foreign language, and general attention span. He is prepared to do that. I am thinking we can start him off with online courses, to get his feet wet.
Does anyone know how to go about getting a very young child into college?

[Lillian J]

There's a whole set of resources, including an email group, that's been set up in the HomeSchool Assn. of California wesite (very little of it is specific only to CA). I'm almost sure you'll be able to find some suggestions there: Homeschooling with Gifted Children. Lillian

[oldcrunchymom]

The people on this message board could give you advice too. Several of the regulars have/had young kids in college:

http://disc.server.com/Indices/9457.html

My son is gifted too and I think we're going to go the community college route at first to get his requirements out of the way (assuming he still wants to go to college in a few years). Then when he's of age he can go away to school.

[eminer]

Hope you don't mind my replying this way, but I would suggest asking him to reconsider. As a "gifted" kid, I fantasized about going to college, because I was stuck in school, where I was bored and miserable, and all the good resources seemed to be at the university library. I was accepted and ready to go off at 16, when my best teacher ever talked me out of it! In retrospect, I'm so glad he did that. College is, at its best, a whole experience that's about much more than academic education narrowly understood. Unless your ds is synchronously gifted or whatever you'd call that -- i.e. socially as well as intellectually mature -- he might get much more out of college if he waits. At a great higher ed institution, placement is individually determined, and things like introductory composition classes aren't just to be "gotten out of the way". The more insanely well prepared your ds can get before he's 18, using the endless resources available to him in the world as a homeschooler, the more insanely wonderful his undergrad experience can be, both working one-on-one with world class scholars AND forming peer relationships with his amazingly talented fellow students. As a young adult, he'll be in a better position to decide what he wants out of his college education, and to get it.

Or maybe I'm way off! Just felt compelled to share.

[oldcrunchymom]

Not sure if you're talking to me or the OP. At any rate, my son is almost 10, so in the few years I mentioned in my post he'll be a teenager. As I said, he won't (hopefully) be going away to school until he was 18 ("of age"). I went to college and I know it's about more than academics--I'd like him to be old enough to actually date the girls there.

Anyway, even if he waits until he's 18 to take ANY college classes, we'll likely be going the community college route for requirements, because we are broke. Really, that is a pretty common route for homeschoolers anyway; I don't see the big problem with it. : Lots of high school age homeschoolers (and even public schoolers) take community college classes to get college credits and a year or so of univer$ity out of the way before transferring somewhere else.

[eilonwy]

Originally Posted by eminer

Hope you don't mind my replying this way, but I would suggest asking him to reconsider. As a "gifted" kid, I fantasized about going to college, because I was stuck in school, where I was bored and miserable, and all the good resources seemed to be at the university library. I was accepted and ready to go off at 16, when my best teacher ever talked me out of it! In retrospect, I'm so glad he did that. College is, at its best, a whole experience that's about much more than academic education narrowly understood. Unless your ds is synchronously gifted or whatever you'd call that -- i.e. socially as well as intellectually mature -- he might get much more out of college if he waits.

My mom refused to let me graduate from high shcool two years early to start college (at 15). In fact, after I was tested at 12, the psychologist's recommendation was that I be permitted to take community college classes starting the following year, but my mother refused that too on the grounds that I was "not socially adept enough." I'm still irritated with her for it, and in retrospect she says that she probably made the wrong decision.

At a great higher ed institution, placement is individually determined, and things like introductory composition classes aren't just to be "gotten out of the way". The more insanely well prepared your ds can get before he's 18, using the endless resources available to him in the world as a homeschooler, the more insanely wonderful his undergrad experience can be, both working one-on-one with world class scholars AND forming peer relationships with his amazingly talented fellow students. As a young adult, he'll be in a better position to decide what he wants out of his college education, and to get it.

What do you mean, they're not just to be gotten out of the way?

The idea of waiting until he's 18... well, that number is just as arbitrary as the "kindergarten age," and I just don't see the point of paying much attention to it if you're home educating.

At any rate, to the OP: if you have any doubts about your (you and your son's) decision, I recommend reading A Nation Deceived, which will probably put your mind somewhat at ease. If you've got internet courses available to you, that would be an excellent way to go! Community college classes are also great; they're inexpensive (in fact, depending on where you live, you may be able to get your local school district to pay for them if you're so inclined), close to home, and totally underrated from an academic point of view. Perhaps you and your son could audit a class or he could take one pass/fail just to find out what the campus is like and what would truly be involved in succeeding academically and socially. Community college classes also tend to have a wider variety of students (age-wise) than your typical 4-year institution; your son may find other kids his own age as well as high school kids, typical college-aged kids, adults and even elderly folks in his classes. I would think that home educated children would be uniquely prepared for this sort of social situation, because they're not forced into artificial groups of kids who are all their own age (give or take 10 months). It's a good thing!

[eminer]

Lisa, I was talking to the OP! Sorry that was unclear. You must have felt like telling me to get off your case.

I think that taking community college classes or studying for AP exams is great, but personally I tend to believe that it's more helpful for the academically inclined to use these for placement than for "skipping a year", so to speak, of college credits. I won't go on about that unless you feel like discussing further, though, because YMMV (or your ds's mileage).

[eminer]

The idea of waiting until he's 18... well, that number is just as arbitrary as the "kindergarten age," and I just don't see the point of paying much attention to it if you're home educating.

You're right, it is arbitrary. 20-something might be even better! But 18 is the arbitrary age of passage to majority in our society. IMO, social and personal maturity are more relevant to this particular experience, which is fundamentally about coming of age and professionalization, than intellectual maturity. I'm sure that a few mature younger, though -- hence the "unless" in my earlier comments. And of course, I didn't at all mean to imply that anyone should wait until an arbitrary age to study "college level material", whatever that may be. Your kindergarten analogy is dead on. I personally would never want to place my child in kindergarten early or skip her to first grade unless she were socially and personally advanced. On the other hand, I would totally encourage her to learn at her own pace and not in lock step with the school schedule. College, fortunately, allows for variations in pace and background in a way that elementary school does not.

I'm sorry I seem to have turned the thread off onto a tangent. I really just meant to offer another perspective, certainly not to push mine on anyone. I am pretty angsty about the whole education thing right now. Maybe I will gain some distance some day and see it all differently.

[eminer]

To eilonwy, I'd also like to add that I would never support preventing a child from making her own decision about her education. Sorry that happened to you and caused you grief.

[boysrus]

hm, well.
In our state, more and more kids are taking their first two years of college during high school, through Running STart. The first two years of college are free and they go through cc.
As for as the whole socialization thing, well, it is funny to hear a hs'er dissuading us to do something due to fears about socialization!
He has aspergers and honestly I dont see the socialization ever becoming a huge issue for him. Also, if he does his college early, he will have the opportunity to travel or work at typical college age, and not "lose" time.
The kid reads college books now, almost everyday. And gets them, really gets them. He wants to pursue college soon. Why would I be talking him out of it?

[USAmma]

Most community colleges will accept younger students. I knew a boy who took college classes part time starting at age 12.

[eminer]

boysrus, we obviously see the purpose/meaning of college-level schooling differently. I'm sorry to have offended you!

[Ravin]

Well, I think all the stuff about college being a coming of age thing and the intangibles, etc. is a load of bunk homeschoolers should know better than to listen to. I listened to that stuff about high school, and you know what it got me? 3 miserable years in high school and a year of college in the middle I was ill prepared for. Why? Because I was away from home before I was ready for it, and because I'd been sitting in high school with zip study skills because I was never challenged there. Had I gone with the other game plan my mother gave me as an option after 7th grade (instead of starting high school), I'd have had my GED at 13 and started community college classes. And would have done okay in them, with parental supervision of my out-of-class activities and perhaps some tutoring in how to study.

But that's another story. I still thing the stuff about college being something more than academics is nonsense, from the perspective of a 28 year old college student who did my growing up THEN went to college. It's just as legit, imo, to go to college (i.e., do college coursework) and find other paths to social maturity (possibly even ones that involve less pot, which is apparently rampant in the HONORS residence hall at ASU) that actually involve the real world.

"The college experience" is only one such path. I joined the military. For a gifted young person who earns a bachelor's degree years in advance, maybe going off for a stint in the Peace Corps will be the thing to do at 18. Or being involved in the campus community during graduate school. Or getting a job or starting a family.

There are many paths to maturity, is my point. And you won't ruin a child's future by letting them do college courses when they're academically ready. Especially with internet courses available that pretty much remove the social aspect of things all together, or at least out of any context save that of the actual course. As long as he can discourse on the level about the subject matter of the class he's taking, other aspects of maturity don't necessarily play into it.

[Lillian J]

I've never felt it makes much difference at what age one takes college classes, but an incident recently happened that made me realize it's something that's pretty individual, and "socialization" actually can be part of that. A devoted homeschool dad reported that his 16 year old son had run away, leaving word with his girlfriend that it had nothing to do with her or his family. It was very harrowing. He turned up a day or two later, and was on his way home when his dad reported that the problems apparently stemmed with pressures the boy was putting on himself in regard to collge demands and the social life he had become involved in with kids much older and worldwise than himself. They won't be sending him back to college until he's older and can handle it better on all levels - and he's recommending that parents think twice about sending young teens to community college. Something to think about...although it's obviously very individual.

My son is an older student at college, and he sometimes finds it frustrating to not find more mature and stimulating conversations and attitudes among the student body - they're so young. He has a lot of German friends who are amazed at how early we send our kids to college - they start in Germany at my son's age, and by that time they have a lot better idea of what they're wanting from the experience. I went to college a bit early too, and looking back, I can see that I was in a little over my head socially, even though I didn't realize it at the time. An 8 year old taking a few college courses is, of course, a very different thing - he's not going to be trying to keep up with the others there socially ... And I know of one 12 year old who was miserable in school - and thrived when his dad got him into college math classes and then into full time college early. Different strokes and all that... Lillian

[eminer]

Originally Posted by Ravin

Well, I think all the stuff about college being a coming of age thing and the intangibles, etc. is a load of bunk homeschoolers should know better than to listen to.

By now, I'm officially feeling a little attacked, but since I honestly didn't mean to turn this into a debate thread, I'm going to bite my tongue. It never occurred to me that you all would think I was talking about the specter of "socialization" or the dorm culture.

[NoHiddenFees]

EPGY offers some college credits in math and physics.

[boysrus]

what is EPGY?
eminer, I wasn;t offended, I was just letting you know where we stand

[eminer]

Originally Posted by boysrus

eminer, I wasn;t offended, I was just letting you know where we stand

Oh, good.

[oldcrunchymom]

EPGY is Education Program for Gifted Youth. It's distance learning software offered at Stanford, Johns Hopkins, and I think a couple other places. You have to test into it with certain scores on standardized tests.

http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/epgy.htm
http://www-epgy.stanford.edu/

[eilonwy]

Originally Posted by USAmma

Most community colleges will accept younger students. I knew a boy who took college classes part time starting at age 12.

At the college that I went to, there was an 8 year old who took college classes part time and regular elementary school classes part time. He was extremely happy with the situation (so I was told by a close friend who had several classes with him, apparently he was majoring in biology), he got to learn new things and keep himself challenged while staying with his friends at the same time.

It's all about the individual child. I had a friend in college who really didn't want to be there, and said that given the choice she would have spent an extra year in high school because she didn't feel like she was ready for college life at all. I felt horrible for her, because she was absolutely right-- she didn't fit in very well. In fact, she spent all her time with us (the gamers and freaks) because there were lots and lots of younger kids around all the time, and she felt most comfortable with them.

This is one more reason to home educate your children, though-- so that you can get to know them and do right by them. It breaks my heart to think that there are people out there who don't know their 8/12/16 year old well enough to know how they would probably fare in a collegiate setting, or who don't respect their children's opinions enough to take them seriously when it comes to their educational futures. [Note: I'm not saying that this problem is unique to people who send their children to public school by any means! This is just one more of my, personal reasons for keeping my kids home.]

Originally Posted by Ravin

"The college experience" is only one such path. I joined the military. For a gifted young person who earns a bachelor's degree years in advance, maybe going off for a stint in the Peace Corps will be the thing to do at 18. Or being involved in the campus community during graduate school. Or getting a job or starting a family.

There are many paths to maturity, is my point. And you won't ruin a child's future by letting them do college courses when they're academically ready. Especially with internet courses available that pretty much remove the social aspect of things all together, or at least out of any context save that of the actual course. As long as he can discourse on the level about the subject matter of the class he's taking, other aspects of maturity don't necessarily play into it.

This is exactly what I'm hoping for, and quite frankly it's what I wanted to do-- finish college at 16/17 and join the Peace Corps for a few years. I had it all worked out in my mind.

I've noticed something else: around 18 (give or take two years) many kids go through a phase where they really don't want to be in school at all. While I was going through this, I made my plans: make sure that my own children have the opportunity to take time off when they want/need to without feeling guilty, or like they're wasting someone's money and/or time. I wish that more people would see college as something other than "what to do when you finish high school." Whether you're 8, 18, or 28 you can definately get something out of it if you're ready to be there and only if you're ready to be there.