if santa is a lie, then what else is a lie?

[boongirl]

I've been reading the threads about Santa being a lie, etc, etc. I am wondering how many of you who feel that telling kids about Santa is lying to them also believe that other mythical and magical parts of childhood are lies. For example, in real life

• animals don't talk or sing
• fish don't have adventures, that we know about
• fairies and pixies are not real
• magic is really a matter of tricking the eye; storybook magic is not real
• superheros are not real
• space travel is actually very limited
• we do not know of any other human-type beings in the universe
• and I could go on and on

I enjoyed all the magical pretend parts of childhood when I was a child and I really enjoy them know that I have a child. I read Peter Rabbit and Pooh stories to my child as well as Thomas the tank engine stories and I plan on reading her fairy tales when she is older. Most of the stories we have involve animals talking and taking on human characteristics. When we play together, we makes her animals, trains, and dolls talk and have amazing adventures. I do not think of any of this as lying. I think of it as the magical part of childhood, not knowing the "real" from the pretend and I enjoy it a lot.

If I really wanted to analyze this practice closely, then it is lying but that would taking the matter much too seriously in my opinion. It is fun. I do not feel I was scarred by having been told these stories as a child and finding out as I grew that they were not real.

Why is telling your child about Santa and Rudolf and all the other magical, pretend parts of christmas any different than the stories kids read about and watch on tv and in the movies? Why do you feel that parents are lying to tell their kids that Santa is real? Why is that any different from Winnie the Pooh and Thomas the tank engine and all the other magical stories we read and tell them? If you do not talk about Santa, do you also avoid all talk related to any kind of creatures who are not real?

Not wanting to offend or start an argument. Just really curious.

[UnschoolnMa]

Originally Posted by boongirl

For example, in real life

• animals don't talk or sing
• fish don't have adventures, that we know about
• fairies and pixies are not real
• magic is really a matter of tricking the eye; storybook magic is not real
• superheros are not real
• space travel is actually very limited
• we do not know of any other human-type beings in the universe
• and I could go on and on

The only one from that list that I would have any thing to say on is magic. Fantasy magic (as in Harry Potter for example) and stage magic (as in "Watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat") are not real, but for some magic is a spiritual religious part of life and is very real. It is not the same thing, IMO, as saying a real man who flies with reindeer will come into our home while we sleep.

Animals do not speak a verbal, audible language that humans can understand but I have little doubt they do "talk" to each other and to some humans on a "deeper than words" level. I would have no problem with my kids knowing I feel that way, but I would never say "So yesterday the dog came in and asked me for a sandwich. Really, she did." KWIM? Fish may or may not play and adventure in the ocean, I haven't a clue, but I would never tell my child that a fish named Nemo really did get taken from his Dad, who then teamed up with a fish plagued by memory loss to rescue him. I would tell him it's a story meant to entertain.

I enjoyed all the magical pretend parts of childhood when I was a child and I really enjoy them know that I have a child. I read Peter Rabbit and Pooh stories to my child as well as Thomas the tank engine stories and I plan on reading her fairy tales when she is older. Most of the stories we have involve animals talking and taking on human characteristics.

I totally agree that fairy tales are great! Dd and I read them often. The question is are you telling your child, as you read these stories, that animals actually can be this human like? That they really do dress up, speak our languages, go to tea, and etc? To me that would be a lie, and it just wouldn't set right with me. Knowing that stories are pretend has never diminished the fun for me...or my children as far as I know.

Why is telling your child about Santa and Rudolf and all the other magical, pretend parts of christmas any different than the stories kids read about and watch on tv and in the movies? Why do you feel that parents are lying to tell their kids that Santa is real? Why is that any different from Winnie the Pooh and Thomas the tank engine and all the other magical stories we read and tell them?

The difference is that the santa thing is told to children as being actual, literal and real in physical form. I do not care that other people are telling their kids the santa story as being real because it's none of my business. But, as far as I can tell unless you really truly think that when you go to sleep on Dec 24th a large man enters your home after parking his sleigh on the roof...you are telling an untruth, IMO. I would not tell my child that their father is really a superhero that saves people like batman on the weekend because it isn't true. We could however make up a great story about it!

If you do not talk about Santa, do you also avoid all talk related to any kind of creatures who are not real?

Well, you can absolutely talk about santa without saying that he is a real man. You can talk about how it all got started and read stories. Heck you can even pretend that he comes ...leave the cookies out and everything, without saying that he is a real man lol. We have talked and read about all sorts of fantasy creatures. We watch movies like Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, The Dark Crystal, Gremlins, etc. It's all great fun, and we've never seen a conflict with knowing something is pretend and still having fun while with it even though you know.

[joandsarah77]

:

If you had read through the other thread you will see many of us like fantasy and pretend, we just don't like pretending that fantasy is real. Also quite young children realize that dogs do not bake cakes, or pack suitcases etc (Spot)

[velochic]

First of all, I didn't read the other thread, but I'm sure it's a heated discussion. These kinds of thinks, IMO, can be as controversial as politics or religion. I see your point, OP, but I think the fine line is between going with the flow of the magic of the season and purposefully being deceitful, which from the tiny bit I read in this thread appears to me to be the issue. I try not to lie to dd, but I also think that for young kids, you almost have to in order to make them understand. What I mean by that is that when you are explaining things to a 3 year old, it's going to be the less complicated version (which some might say is lying). (ETA... the above post illustrates my point... saying "dogs pack suitcases" and "SPOT" on TV? In a book? I don't know SPOT, but anyway, saying "SPOT packs a suitcase" are two different things.)

Or as an example from real life, one might tell a child, "No, honey, the stars won't burn you." when really, at 15 million Kelvins for a typical M-class star, yep, it sure will, but when the heck is your child going to be near a star? Literally, that's lying. Realistically, it's starting simply to teach a young child about physics. ANYTHING that is hard to comprehend can be "magic". TV, "talking animals", Harry Potter, dough turning into bread, the sun coming up every day... heck, most of the stuff my dh researches at the university (computer imaging, visualization, augmented reality) seems like magic to me, still!! Likewise, when Santa is hard to comprehend as a very young child, he can be magic, too. I don't see it as lying. Now, if my dd is 10 years old and I'm STILL trying to emphatically convince her that the big guy in the red suit brings her presents... yeah, I can see where that is a little extreme.

Anyhoo... Dd is almost 4 and is really getting into Christmas and Santa. We will continue to "do" Santa until she is old enough to understand what Santa REPRESENTS about Christmas, which I believe is the nature of giving. When she reaches the age that she realizes Santa isn't "real" in the true sense, I hope that I will be able to let her see that Santa IS real because we can all be Santa - and that Christmas isn't a day, but an attitude of caring for each other.

P.S. This is my secular view and I definitely won't get into the non-Secular POV here.

[Rmeg]

boongirl, great post. I couldn't agree more.

[*Lisa*]

I'm all for pretending and telling stories... I just wouldn't try to make my child believe in something that I knew to be false. I don't have any issues at all with DD making up stories or doing things that couldn't happen in real life (like making her stuffed animals talk). At the same time, I don't go out of my way to try to make her believe that real animals talk in the same way that people do, in English. That would be a lie. For example, I might read stories in which cats wear clothes and talk, but I wouldn't make a tape recording to make it look like a real cat was actually talking (and in my opinion, this is the sort of thing that some parents do with Santa--leaving footprints in the snow, etc.).

Although there is much that is wonderful about the confusion of pretend and reality among young children, there's a lot that's not so wonderful, too... Monsters under the bed come to mind, for example. I also have seen more than one child TERRIFIED of the Santa Claus in the mall that they're being brought to see.

[ThinkBlu]

Tend to agree with UnschoolnMa. Talking ABOUT Santa is not lying, but stating as truth, something which I know not to be true is lying, IMO.

I may be seen as hypocritical, but I kinda walk the middle ground. I will not tell my child a lie, but neither do I think I must correct every misconception or misdirected-faith that my child has.

For me, Thomas the Train and Santa are kinda the same thing, though Santa is complicated because most people don’t ‘lie’ to my child about Thomas the train, but they will about Santa. He has stories and knows bits and pieces about both of them. I have not told him that they are or are not real. When asked questions, I’m likely to respond something to the effect, “what do you think?”, but if directly asked a question, and if the question persisted past my “what do you think” response, I would be truthful, even if only to say that “some people believe” and then if further pressed that “no, mommy doesn’t believe”.

I think childhood is magical, but I disagree that children “don’t know the real from the pretend.” I think kids tend to know real from pretend quite well, except when confused with ‘lies’, since they are so trusting. I think generally they just don’t care if it’s real or pretend, and if the pretend is fun, then hey, go with the pretend!! (Kid’s in abusive relationships often escape to pretend to escape reality.) Maybe I’m a freak (and no, please don’t comment!) but I remember having an imaginary friend as a child, and I knew they were imaginary, but that didn’t make them less significant…if that makes any sense.

I disagree with having to lie to make young children understand. Further, I disagree that telling a child that a “star won’t burn you” is lying. (unless your talking sunburn) Telling a child that “if you grew wings and flew to the star it would not burn you” would be a lie, but since part A is not going to happen, part B is also not going to happen….but I digress…

[mommytolittlelilly]

I don't want to suck any of the joy out of childhood for my daughter - that's what it would feel like if we were not doing Santa, Easter Bunny, etc. Right now, it is FUN for her (and us) to pretend that Santa's getting ready to deliver presents with Rudolf, and that Frosty's a magical snowman. It was also FUN for her (and us) to talk about the Easter Bunny delivering Easter baskets, and hopping around with colored eggs in a cute little basket while wearing a funny vest. It's all part of the pretend, imaginative, creative world of childhood to us. If she was getting scared about something that's pretend, like monsters, we remind her that they're not real. Even that's not cut and dry, though, because she has a love, fascination, and affection for Frankenstein and the story of Frankenstein. She also likes to role-play with us as Santa-Frosty-Rudolf, or the Mummy-Frankenstein-Bunnicula, or some other such combination, just as she enjoys doing the same thing with characters from stories we've read (anything from Hector the Hermit Crab to the Velveteen Rabbit to Bossyboots, whatever, anything goes).

I have really cherished memories of finding Santa presents on Christmas morning, or an Easter basket on Easter morning, or treats under my pillow in exchange for a tooth. I felt no resentment toward my parents for engaging in these make-believe stories when I found out that's what they were. On the contrary, I felt kind of sad, like a chapter of my childhood was over.

[boongirl]

Nice post, mommytolittlelilly. I totally agree. To me, talking about winnie the pooh and having his little puppet talk to dd is implying that he is "real" and is no different than telling her the story of santa and rudolf. It is sure a whole lot of fun. I enjoyed that part of my childhood, never resented my parents in the least, and am really enjoying sharing it with a child of my own.

[johub]

Originally Posted by boongirl

I've been reading the threads about Santa being a lie, etc, etc. I am wondering how many of you who feel that telling kids about Santa is lying to them also believe that other mythical and magical parts of childhood are lies. For example, in real life

• animals don't talk or sing
• fish don't have adventures, that we know about
• fairies and pixies are not real
• magic is really a matter of tricking the eye; storybook magic is not real
• superheros are not real
• space travel is actually very limited
• we do not know of any other human-type beings in the universe
• and I could go on and on

I enjoyed all the magical pretend parts of childhood when I was a child and I really enjoy them know that I have a child. I read Peter Rabbit and Pooh stories to my child as well as Thomas the tank engine stories and I plan on reading her fairy tales when she is older. Most of the stories we have involve animals talking and taking on human characteristics. When we play together, we makes her animals, trains, and dolls talk and have amazing adventures. I do not think of any of this as lying. I think of it as the magical part of childhood, not knowing the "real" from the pretend and I enjoy it a lot.

If I really wanted to analyze this practice closely, then it is lying but that would taking the matter much too seriously in my opinion. It is fun. I do not feel I was scarred by having been told these stories as a child and finding out as I grew that they were not real.

Why is telling your child about Santa and Rudolf and all the other magical, pretend parts of christmas any different than the stories kids read about and watch on tv and in the movies? Why do you feel that parents are lying to tell their kids that Santa is real? Why is that any different from Winnie the Pooh and Thomas the tank engine and all the other magical stories we read and tell them? If you do not talk about Santa, do you also avoid all talk related to any kind of creatures who are not real?

Not wanting to offend or start an argument. Just really curious.

:

Excellent post! I think that if Santa is a "lie" then ALL children stories and fiction is a lie too. Oh and dress up and pretend play too for that manner.
"Sorry honey, you really arent a Fireman!" "You do know that this is not actually tea dont you dear?"

A childhood where imagination/ fiction = Lie is not the kind of childhood
I want for my kids. Nor is it the definition of "lie" I want them to take into adulthood.

[boongirl]

Originally Posted by johub

A childhood where imagination/ fiction = Lie is not the kind of childhood
I want for my kids. Nor is it the definition of "lie" I want them to take into adulthood.

Yeah! You go girl!

[pfamilygal]

We do not do Santa because I think that my kids don't need to believe in him. They do play pretend and engage in magical thinking. But they don't think that a Rescue Hero or Dora the Explorer comes and leaves presents on Christmas. For us, Christmas is a time that we celebrate the fulfillment of God's promises in the gift of our Messiah. It is a real event we are focused on, not a pretend one. Why have the substitute when you have the real thing?

[Sharlla]

He has a very good idea of what is real and what is make believe. He doens't even believe in the boogie man.

I did have him convinced that our cat was a robot with a computer for a brain. hahaha

[Jilian]

Originally Posted by johub

:

Excellent post! I think that if Santa is a "lie" then ALL children stories and fiction is a lie too. Oh and dress up and pretend play too for that manner.
"Sorry honey, you really arent a Fireman!" "You do know that this is not actually tea dont you dear?"

A childhood where imagination/ fiction = Lie is not the kind of childhood
I want for my kids. Nor is it the definition of "lie" I want them to take into adulthood.

Encouraging your children to use their imaginations and telling them lies are two different things IMO. To suggest that because I don't tell my son that Santa truly does bring him presents, that we are not capable of any other form of fantasy or imaginitive play is silly. Like a mama said in the Santa thread, the difference is that with imaginitive play my DS would be "in on it" and know that we are playing pretend.

[pinkmilk]

My two cents worth.... Santa is about practicing having faith in something. Children love to believe in Santa even after they find out the real truth. The thrill of believing in something good far outweighs the disappointment in the fact that Santa is'nt really real. My boys 9 and 11 still say they believe in Santa(even though I'm sure they don't), they just like to talk about what Santa will bring them...it's like dreaming about winning the lottery and what you will do with all that money. It's also how I feel about children and Love or God. They can't see or hear(well maybe they can but that's a whole other topic!)God but must learn about having faith in that Higher Power,Love,
God(ess),ect.
It's just a practice run in faith that makes kids happy...

[johub]

Originally Posted by Jilian

Encouraging your children to use their imaginations and telling them lies are two different things IMO. To suggest that because I don't tell my son that Santa truly does bring him presents, that we are not capable of any other form of fantasy or imaginitive play is silly. Like a mama said in the Santa thread, the difference is that with imaginitive play my DS would be "in on it" and know that we are playing pretend.

People keep throwing the word "truly" or "really"
WHo actually says this to their kids?
I mean really.
What is the difference between saying "Winnie the pooh ate too much honey and got stuck in Rabbit's door! " and saying " And to what my wondering eyes should appear but a Miniature sleigh and 8 tiny reindeer"
YOu tell the story , the child chooses to believe it.
"Santa delivers Presents on Christmas Eve" is no more a lie than "Lumpy is Roos new best friend" or "Winnie the Pooh loves honey".
Does Winnie the pooh REALLY exist? Does it become a lie if you tell your child that the neighborhood wooded area is the "hundred acre wood' and you spend summer afternoons trying to catch sight of Pooh and his friends?

Or how bout if you say "Oooh I wonder if a Troll lives under this bridge!" or " These flowers look like faerie hats."
It doesnt matter if the child is "in on it" or not.

Joline

[MsChatsAlot]

I've been careful not to specifically lie to the kids. I don't say "go to sleep because some fat man in a red & white suit will sneak into our house with a present for you." What I have said is that there will likely be gifts for them in the morning given to them in the spirit/tradition of Santa or Father Christmas. Funny thing is - they still think (probably from shows & such) that there is someone who will come in & leave them gifts. I am careful about how I word it to them, but they've made their own ideas. They know that the men in the mall are just in costumes, etc.

The idea of Santa can be about magic and giving and wonderful surprises. I think it's okay to find some middle ground. Wanting our children to experience that excitement and wonder while not having to outright lie. I think there is some compromise there.

[DevaMajka]

MsChatsAlot, ITA.

Originally Posted by johub

What is the difference between saying "Winnie the pooh ate too much honey and got stuck in Rabbit's door! " and saying " And to what my wondering eyes should appear but a Miniature sleigh and 8 tiny reindeer"
YOu tell the story , the child chooses to believe it.
"Santa delivers Presents on Christmas Eve" is no more a lie than "Lumpy is Roos new best friend" or "Winnie the Pooh loves honey".

The difference is that in Santa, you insist that its true. It's not just that you're playing along. You go out of your way to prove that it's true. You don't go out and find a bear, put a red shirt on it, and have it eat honey to prove that winnie the pooh really does love honey.

I must admit, that I'm beginning to see how some can see Santa as NOT being a lie, if told in certain ways.
But I still stand by my thoughts that it is a lie to insist, and go out of your way to prove/insist that it's true (the footprints in the snow, the eaten cookies, etc).

I actually now do see how it is not a lie to tell children the Santa story, and let them take it as they will. If they choose to believe it's true, then go along with it, but always answer questions honestly (or with "what do YOU think" first). And not go out of your way to insist that Santa is a real person.

In stories, like Finding Nemo, you don't go out and buy a fish, and reenact the whole thing to prove that it's true. If a child asks if it's true, you don't insist that it is.

I gotta go for now- ds is wanting me (as always lol)
But I will be thinking about this. I'm so glad there is an open discussion on it here. Nobody irl will even talk about it with me lol

[Peony]

I'm all for for making childhood magical, I feel that children do that well enough themselves and I don't need to tell dd that some stranger is going to come into our house and leave presents for her. She can choose to believe in anything she wants to, if she wants to pretend that santa is a real person, then good for her, but I'm not going to tell her otherwise.

[UnschoolnMa]

(Disclaimer: I do not care who does or does not do Santa. I am interested in the issue of why I think it's dishonest. )

OK, just so it's clear for my own sanity, and because people keep asking what the difference is:

The difference between the Santa thing and other fictional, imaginative stories that are so often part of childhood is that a parent is telling the child that the Santa story is ACTUALLY TRUE, and that ACTUALLY HAPPENS. Are you telling your kids that a girl named Cinderella REALLY went to a ball in a pumpkin-coach drawn by mice-turned-horeses? Are you having them believe that a young girl named Dora actually wanders around with a real talking map? Do you tell them these things are really, definately happening? My guess is no, and that is the difference.

Enjoying the fantasy in a story/fairy tale/ pretend creatures is different than REALLY causing children to believe that an ACTUAL man comes to their home to deliver gifts while they sleep.