if santa is a lie, then what else is a lie? - Page 4

[Hazelnut]

I'm in the not-the-same-thing camp. I don't think that pretending Santa is real and pretend play are the same thing at all. When my son is confused about all this Santa stuff and people explain to him that Santa is this real person who comes down a chimney and flies through the air as if it is an absolute truth, well I think that is completely different than talking about imaginary things and playing. We pretend that our animal puppets can talk and tickle. I'm not earnestly explaining and raising him to believe that somewhere out there, eagles really talk like people and like legos. Though I do hesitate to use the word lie wrt the whole Santa thing, because it sounds more pejorative than I think it truly is.

Also, my son understand the difference between real and pretend, and uses the word "pretend" all the time. I'm more interested in talking about Santa as "pretend" than in shunning him all together or just saying "he's not real!"

[Hazelnut]

double post.

[Dal]

johub, how about this case: when Simon really wants something he can't have -- e.g., big decorative balls hanging from the ceiling at the mall or some cookies that are being eaten on t.v., I reach out and "grab" them and give them to him. We pretend to eat them (or whatever). Surely you do not think that my son thinks I'm giving him the real deal! He knows that it's pretend. I think that very yound children do have a pretty solid grasp on what is real and what is not. I've seen recordings of recent child psych experiments in which young babies looked totally amazed and shocked when things out of the norm were happening (e.g., something seems to defy gravity), and they were bored when shown typical events. They quickly learn what is real and what is not and know when something is out of the ordinary. I don't think that children would believe that Santa flies around giving presents to children if they only saw this in a cartoon or read about it in a book and didn't have a parent coach them and tell them that this fantastical thing is real.

[johub]

Originally Posted by Dal

johub, how about this case: when Simon really wants something he can't have -- e.g., big decorative balls hanging from the ceiling at the mall or some cookies that are being eaten on t.v., I reach out and "grab" them and give them to him. We pretend to eat them (or whatever). Surely you do not think that my son thinks I'm giving him the real deal! .

Of course not. Some pretend is obvious, some is more subtle.

[missleesy]

Yeah it's a lie but more importantly it's idolatry

Santa is a great example of idolatry. Even in many Christian homes the emphasis of the Christmas season and on Christmas Day itself tends not to be on Jesus, but on Santa and presents. In the United States what was once a holiday to celebrate the birth of our Lord Jesus Christ has been transformed into a tradition filled with pagan idols. The fact that children are told that Santa knows when you're sleeping, awake, bad and good, for goodness sake folks, these are characteristics that only God has, yet they are ascribed to Santa.

Even for non-Christians the problems with Santa are that you have to keep making up more lies, like why are there so many different Santas on TV, in the mall, etc? How in the world can he come to all the houses in one night..he has to be at multiple places at one time for that to happen...only God is omnipresent. Why does Santa not give gifts to the poor kids, or give very few to some kids even though they are just as good as others? The list truly goes on and on. Just stop the insanity and the idolatry and tell your kids the truth. They can still have the fun of family and presents without the lies and false idols.

[johub]

Some of us are very fond of our pagan rituals and idols.

[NaturalMom]

Originally Posted by kayjayjay

So when Christmas came and there were presents under the tree she burst into tears and asked me if Santa had brought them, apparently because the man at the mall was scary and the thought of him coming into our house while we were asleep terrified her.

This is just like my son! He just turned three, and he's terrified of Santa. My in-laws were keeping him the other day and mentioned to him that Santa was coming to their house, and he jumped up and headed for the door, saying he wanted to go home - ! They assured him Santa wasn't coming until Christmas, but he still wanted to go home... They mentioned it to us like it was child abuse, and I casually said that he's always been afraid of Santa - at the mall, at parades, etc. We have books about Santa, and he closes them and says, "I don't like Santa".

Then tonight DH and I started singing "Santa Claus is coming to town", and he got very quiet and listened (unusual for him!). After we finished singing, he asked very seriously, "Is Santa coming to our house?" We responded that we didn't know - did he want Santa to come? And he said that he didn't. So we said that Santa would not come to our house if he didn't want him to.

So I guess we're off the hook this year about Santa, but by telling him that Santa isn't coming to our house, then I guess we're implying that he's real. Hmmm... Life is never easy, is it? We could easily solve it all by going ahead and telling him that Santa isn't a real person and it's just pretend. Maybe we should do this b/c I think he thinks Santa is a big monster or something :

[boongirl]

I do not normally watch 7th Heaven but I did watch it last night. I am also not very religious but I am a softy for the Christmas story. I thought the father, the minister, explained the Santa story very nicely to his twin boys (7 years old). He told them the story of St. Nick. He lived in Turkey in the year 400 ad and had very wealthy parents. His parents died when he was young and he spent his life giving gifts to those in need. He was cannonized by the church and called St. Nick. His death was December 6th and some in Europe still celebrate that by giving gifts on that day. In Victorian times, the story morphed into the story of Santa Claus and he became the gift giver of lore but it still represents the history of the real person that was Nicholas. We somehow combined the birthday of Jesus with the giving of gifts and celebrate christmas this way. Many people get caught up in the act of buying and recieving but christmas is really about celebrating the birth of the baby jesus and giving gifts to those in need, be they little children or others in need. The Camden family don't give each other gifts but give to those in need. I assume, since they were told about Santa, that the little boys recieve a present from Santa. Mr. Camden said he never heard of anybody getting confused about Santa as an adult and that he represents the joy of gift giving. Even if you are spreading a story that is not really true, it represents a story that is true and that story is tied into the heart of what christians, and some others, celebrate as christmas in the US. To take it literally, it is a lie. But to take its meaning and spread that to children is a wonderful thing. The important thing is to spread the meaning along with the gift giving. I think a lot of people forget that part.

I thought Mr. Camden's story was very well put. Even though it came from a television show, it still struck my heart as sweet.

[maya44]

I have a problem with lies but none with "false idols".

[afishwithabike]

Here's what my parents did for us

My parents told us the story of the man Saint Nicholas and informed us that Santa Claus was a game based on the story of Saint Nicholas. We knew from the beginning that Santa Claus was a pretend character. Simple....No lies...No robbing of childhood fantasies......Worked like a charm.

[Diane~Alena]

My children and I love to pretend. We have many pets and we pretend that they tell us things all the time. The thing is my kids know it is pretend.

We pretend in magic in fact I have told my children that I am magic because I know most of the answers to thier questions but in the end we giggle and talk about how I realy know the answers.

I don't like lying to my kids I want them to have a solid foundation in life. We play we buy gifts and show love. We pretend and have a great life. My sister told her kids that toys come to life while we aren't looking and that made my son so upset he worried that the toys felt pain when they broke. It took me weeks to tell him that it was just a game his aunt plays and it isn't real at all. i wish she had told him that it was just an idea and a fun thought but not reality. I find the truth is kinder to children. we don't need to lie to our children to give them fantacy.

[lovebug]

Originally Posted by boongirl

I enjoyed all the magical pretend parts of childhood when I was a child and I really enjoy them know that I have a child. I read Peter Rabbit and Pooh stories to my child as well as Thomas the tank engine stories and I plan on reading her fairy tales when she is older. Most of the stories we have involve animals talking and taking on human characteristics. When we play together, we makes her animals, trains, and dolls talk and have amazing adventures. I do not think of any of this as lying. I think of it as the magical part of childhood, not knowing the "real" from the pretend and I enjoy it a lot.

If I really wanted to analyze this practice closely, then it is lying but that would taking the matter much too seriously in my opinion. It is fun. I do not feel I was scarred by having been told these stories as a child and finding out as I grew that they were not real.

Why is telling your child about Santa and Rudolf and all the other magical, pretend parts of christmas any different than the stories kids read about and watch on tv and in the movies? Why do you feel that parents are lying to tell their kids that Santa is real? Why is that any different from Winnie the Pooh and Thomas the tank engine and all the other magical stories we read and tell them? If you do not talk about Santa, do you also avoid all talk related to any kind of creatures who are not real?

nope i think you are right on!!!!!!!! it is part of being a kid

[Diane~Alena]

Why is telling your child about Santa and Rudolf and all the other magical, pretend parts of christmas any different than the stories kids read about and watch on tv and in the movies? Why do you feel that parents are lying to tell their kids that Santa is real? Why is that any different from Winnie the Pooh and Thomas the tank engine and all the other magical stories we read and tell them? If you do not talk about Santa, do you also avoid all talk related to any kind of creatures who are not real?

I think this is overboard, but thats just my opinion.

My son also loves Thomas but he knows that real Tank Engines don't have faces and can't talk. We play Thomas and have the characters play but we have roots in reality. My grandfather ran a train station I don't lie to my son and tell him the trains were like Thomas he knows they are real trains not play trains with personalities. It doesn't make it less fun it just lets him know he can come to me for facts. My favorite Disney character is Tinkerbelle, I love the idea of faries and have pictures of those images in my house. My children know they are drawings, my daughter and I pretend alot about Faries helping flowers grow but she knows the plants life cycle has nothing to do with Faries. I think playing and lying are two different things we can pretend without lying. We Talk about Santa here, we even own the movie ELF but my children know that is a story and not reality.

[Zipporah]

What i don't get is that if the whole Santa charade is supposed to develop imagination etc, then why is it that so many of the pro-Santa-myth people seem to find it difficult if not impossible to imagine that childhood can be perfectly happy, magical and fulfilling without it?
An example posted by Boongirl --

"Which is worse - telling your children Santa is not real and missing out on that really fun part of childhood or participating in a slight deception, if you want to call it that, and enjoying that part of childhood immensely."

I find this really condescending and superior. The Santa story is not an inherent "part of childhood" that, if missed, will just be an empty hole in a child's life. It is purely a cultural construct that has no place in the lives of hundreds of millions of children around the world - children who have childhoods every bit as magical and happy as yours, if you can imagine that. It is not a simple question of an inevitable element in childhood that must be either "missed or enjoyed" - it is about what you want your children to believe, what you want them to see as important in the world, what you want them to appreciate and value, and what you want them to experience as "magical". There is nothing specific to the Santa story that makes it an indispensable or invaluable part of childhood; in fact i believe there are far better ways of teaching every single thing the Santa story purports to teach, and it can all be done without even the faintest hint of deception.

Magic is inherent to childhood, it is not the product of some artificially-concocted myth we have to spoon-feed our kids.

[Diane~Alena]

without even the faintest hint of deception

: