Pitt Wants to Adopt Jolie's Two Children - Page 5

[Mamma Mia]

Originally Posted by Kincaid

And child with red hair, of Irish ancestry, should be placed with an adoptive family that is likewise of Irish descent. Not with a family with a German last name. Not with a an Italian mom and Jewish dad.

And a child placed for adoption born to a Baptist mother should not be allowed to be adopted by a Unitarian Universalist mom. Or worse, raised godless by an atheist! The child has a right to be raised the "right" way, true to his or her roots, just as the child would be within the biological family.

This makes no sense whatsoever to me. Cultural purity?

I'm certainly not seeking cultural purity. Also, because of assimilation, most whites in the US do not have an ethnic culture anymore. You're taking my viewpoint to extremes to try to debate it, which isn't a good way of arguing.

[Mamma Mia]

Originally Posted by DebraBaker

While I think culture is important, I find other things to be priorities.

The love of a mother and (hopefully) father.

Food, clothing, education, freedom.

I know enough people who adopt children with obviously different color skin and shape to their facial features and they're doing fine.

Most people who adopt internationally (or trans culturally) work to keep their children involved with their culture.

That being said, culture....mother love....culture....mother love....culture.....mother love guess what? Mother love wins hands down.

Debra Baker

I agree that mother love wins. I still think that allowing children to grow up as an insider to their own culture, especially if they are people of color who are adopted into a racist society like America is very important.

[Mamma Mia]

Originally Posted by kymholly

Well you've certainly put forth a heck of an effort.

I think I'll take your advice and stop reading your posts because your racially charged... oh, I mean, CULTURALLY charged opinions are making me nauseous.

Excuse me while I :Puke

Well, I think either you don't understand me, or you believe that all cultures should assimilate or that white culture is superior. It's hard to understand what your actualy viewpoint is, since you refuse to discuss it and insist on posting in an insulting manner.

[mamameg]

Originally Posted by Mamma Mia

I still think that allowing children to grow up as an insider to their own culture, especially if they are people of color who are adopted into a racist society like America is very important.

This reminds me of things people used to say to me before I married inter-racially. "Marriage is hard enough... why are you making it more difficult by creating a marriage that so many people will have a problem with?" I think that is an illogical argument. How would me marrying within my own race make this a LESS racist country? How will racism ever be abolished if we are so focused on people keeping "with their own"? That makes no sense to me.

[mamameg]

Originally Posted by Mamma Mia

Also, because of assimilation, most whites in the US do not have an ethnic culture anymore.

Not so. White Americans, Black Americans, Mexican Americans, Indian Americans, Cambodian Americans, etc.... they are American. That is their culture.

[Mamma Mia]

Originally Posted by mamameg

This reminds me of things people used to say to me before I married inter-racially. "Marriage is hard enough... why are you making it more difficult by creating a marriage that so many people will have a problem with?" I think that is an illogical argument. How would me marrying within my own race make this a LESS racist country? How will racism ever be abolished if we are so focused on people keeping "with their own"? That makes no sense to me.

I don't think it sounds the same at all. No one was forcing you to give up your identity or culture by marrying interracially. You were an adult and made the choice to do so. I appreciate very much the struggles of interracial dating and marriage as I have been interracial relationships myself.

[Mamma Mia]

Originally Posted by mamameg

Not so. White Americans, Black Americans, Mexican Americans, Indian Americans, Cambodian Americans, etc.... they are American. That is their culture.

Are you denying that ethnic groups in the US have seperate cultures? This is a big part of anti-racist work. Understanding that "colorblindness" is detrimental to anti-racist work because it ignores the different cultures and experiences of people of color in the US is important in overcoming racism.

Also, Maddox is Cambodian and Zahara is African- not sure which country she's from, I can't remember. They are ex-pats of their birth countries living in the US. Citizenship and an American mother doesn't negate that. I'm not saying that they should be outsiders here by any means, I'm saying that they and other children deserve to be a part of the richness of their own culture.

There is no blanket, homogenized American culture, unless you count mainstream culture, which is primarily based on white culture. Beauty standards are based on white features, white rap artists outsell black rap artists (like the Elvis phenomenon), the list goes on.

[mamameg]

Originally Posted by Mamma Mia

Are you denying that ethnic groups in the US have seperate cultures? (snip) There is no blanket, homogenized American culture, unless you count mainstream culture, which is primarily based on white culture.

Actually, I think American culture DOES embody all those other cultures. That was my point. There is histoy, there is cultural backgroud, but we are all here now, part of this American culture.

Originally Posted by Mamma Mia

Beauty standards are based on white features, white rap artists outsell black rap artists (like the Elvis phenomenon), the list goes on.

This is something that I see as fluid and changing all the time. I actually think a lot of beauty standards are now swaying to embody exotic features and multi-racial looks.... a product of our multi-ethnic culture.

And as for record sales, other than Eminem, who are you talking about? And FWIW, I think Eminem has high sales due to his controversy and inflamatory content (shock value) , along with the fact that white kids identify with him as someone who looks like them, doing music they were already listening to, music that was traditionally "black music" but is now being referred to as "urban". The race labels are dropping off as we become a more multi racial society.

[Mamma Mia]

I disagree about Eminem, even though it's off topic. Eminem is palatable to white suburbanite kids because he looks like them, I agree with that. He is no more offensive (in fact in many cases less) than a lot of black rappers out there, but he gets attention for his words and actions in the media because he is white.

I think the beginnings of having a less white based beauty standard are coming about, but people of color who are considered beautiful in our culture still generally have "white" features or their features are more "white" than the majority of people from their background.

Becoming a more multi racial society is a bit of a misnomer because we have long been a multi racial society, but I understand what you mean and shouldn't get sidetracked on semantics too much. Often times race labels dropping off is just another way of saying that even more things are being appropriated by whites and therefore becoming a part of the mainstream. It's a tricky situation.

Originally Posted by mamameg

Actually, I think American culture DOES embody all those other cultures. That was my point. There is histoy, there is cultural backgroud, but we are all here now, part of this American culture.

It does and it doesn't. Again, there is no homogenized American culture, except what whites have appropriated and made mainstream. Ethnic families still have an "other" identity in our culture. I don't think that America should be a "melting pot". I think it should be more like a tossed salad. We should be able to exist together in a loving society that embraces our differences without losing our cultures entirely. Perhaps if America weren't a hierarchy of power based on race, class and sex, homogenization wouldn't be so offensive. As it is, just because I go to the Dia De Los Muertos Parade, doesn't mean that I share a culture with the Mexican immigrants, citizens and Americans who live around me. I am appreciative of their culture, but it is not my own to take.

Aside from that, even if American culture was really a single culture we all belong to (finally getting back on topic), that doesn't negate that it would be very different from Cambodian culture. I go back to Cambodia because I do not remember the coutry in Africa Zahara is from, and African culture is not homogenous either. There is a history in Cambodia that one can only learn by living there and being Cambodian. Spending lots of time there will still serve to make Maddox an outsider in a sense.

I think that it is good that Jolie owns property there and spends time with Maddox in his birth country. Given that she has already adopted him and he is her son, I think she is doing a great thing by giving him ties to his roots.

[Dragonfly]

Originally Posted by Mamma Mia

I agree that mother love wins. I still think that allowing children to grow up as an insider to their own culture, especially if they are people of color who are adopted into a racist society like America is very important.

Hm. Is voluntary segregation the way to end racism?

Personally, I think that international adoption can do a lot to break down the barriers between races and cultures, especially when children are adopted by people who seek to understand their culture and help them stay connected to it. And, rather than seeing this as the death of something in the child, one can choose to see it in a more positive light - perhaps they can have the best of both worlds.

It seems to me that Angelina Jolie is bringing her children up to be world citizens which is, IMO, incredibly valuable, both to them and to everyone else.

[DebraBaker]

I think adopting children who need you regardless of that child's race would only contribute toward ending racism instead of encouraging racism.

DB

[EFmom]

All things being ideal, I would agree that it would be preferable for a child to be adopted by a good family in their own country. The problem is that all things are not ideal. My kids came from a country where the number of kids adopted both in country and internationally are a drop in the bucket compared to the number of kids in orphanages. The government there has taken steps to encourage domestic adoption, and it has risen, but is nowhere near high enough to provide families for children who need them.

I didn't adopt my kids to save them from anything--I adopted because I wanted to build a family. Realistically, it is likely that if my kids stayed in the orphanage, they would not have been educated, would have aged out of the orphanage with no particular skills, would have had great difficulty marrying or finding a decent job in a culture where family connections are key.

Providing support for poor families or dysfunctional families to be able to keep bio children is not the particular purview of adoptive parents. It is no more my responsibility to do that than anyone else's. In my case, I am drawn to support the institutions where my daughters spent their first year, but that's because I got to meet my children's caretakers and I saw how much they loved the kids and I am grateful for the care they got.

I am active in a number of international adoption support groups. I don't know anyone who doesn't try hard to give their kids as much cultural support as they can. It is not the same as being brought up in that culture. I know many second generation immigrant families from my children's ethnic backgrounds who have similar issues with their kids losing the culture of their parents.

[muttix2]

Ok, I don't have a problem with international adoption but I do think that the parents should work extra hard to help the kids they adopt feel a "part" of their birth culture. About the white people adopting black kids thing, I'm mixed (1/2 white, 1/2 black). My mom (white) had enough trouble with what to say, what to do, how to handle things, etc. and she is married to a black man. I think that most white people (barring the ones in interracial relationships) have never seen true racism except on TV and that is nothing like living it. There are things that a black kid needs to learn to exsist in society. One of the main things that I can think of off the top of my head is how to deal with the police. I have two boys who are 3/4 black, 1/4 white and I will be teaching them exactly how to deal with police. The way that white people deal with police could get a black person shot and killed. Now, that is an extreme but its the truth. For that reason I think that white people who adopt black kids need to really think about what they're getting into. There are a lot of things for them to learn and I think that a lot of people just tend to disregard this with color blindness (raise them the same as any kid you'd raise, etc). My uncle has put it best to me, the only way for a person to be truly color blind is if they have no color themselves.

[Mamma Mia]

Originally Posted by muttix2

My uncle has put it best to me, the only way for a person to be truly color blind is if they have no color themselves.

I really like this. I always say that the only people who have the privilege to be colorblind are whites. It's even on the white privilege checklist that's floating around the internet.