when to start with manners? - Page 10

[Fuamami]

Originally Posted by captain crunchy

I don't really care for the term correction. After all, aren't jails called "correctional" facilities? They obviously don't do much to correct any kind of behavior, so on a much, much smaller scale, I agree with this philosophy regarding children (in that it doesn't work too well most of the time). Correcting, punishing, shaming, yelling, time-outs, taking away items of enjoyment (or their "currency" blech) if they don't do something we want them to do...all that is not how I want the dynamic to be with my daughter. I don't want our dynamic to be one of control, namely, ME in control and her having only small amounts of choices that I dole out to her depending on how well she "behaves" for me.

That is just not us.

You know, I really don't appreciate being grouped with Dr. Phil, yellers, spankers, and punishers. I don't think it's fair to anyone on this board, and I think your blanket dismissal of anyone who chooses to coach their children more than you do as selfish control freaks who only care about how they "behave" for them doesn't contribute to a respectful debate.

[loraxc]

You know...it's a little funny, really. I would say I am an extremely "low-coercion" parent. I am also basically in the no-reward no-punishment school of discipline (I may reevaluate as DD gets older, but it'c certainly where we are now, at two). In other words, I am totally outside the disciplinary mainstream. This issue (politeness and consideration) happens to be a biggie for me, however. It is a place where I am going to take a more active role. Rather than placing me and others in the category of "I can't even talk to you about this because you are so completely opposite me, and you remind me of Dr. Phil," I would appreciate a slightly more open mind. I have certainly paid attention here, and I will probably give the embarrassment issue more thought than I might have before this thread.

One thing I find confusing about the model some of you seem be espousing--I feel like you in fact give the child much more freedom and right to expression than the parent. You say you believe in everyone being genuine--thus, your child can say whatever she wants in response to someone's kind gesture, right? But am I really supposed to behave the same way? I don't think so--I get the idea I am maybe allowed to carefully formulate a polite, noncoercive, emotionally neutral comment about how I may be affected by their behavior. Well, but that's not how I genuinely feel! How is that egalitarian, then?

BINGO! Kids get to be genuine, and so do parents. In my family, I get to genuinely express my feeling to (part of modelling).

Okay, so let's say my child drops Grandma's sweater on the floor in disdain and spits out her casserole. My "genuine feelings" in this scenario would be embarrassment and anger at her behavior. Am I allowed to tell her that? ("DD, you just really embarrassed me and made me mad! I feel terrible that you hurt Grandma's feelings!") How is that possibly less shaming and hurtful than quietly taking her aside and explaning to her that Grandma worked hard on that, people enjoy being thanked, etc?

Or am I meant to be so highly evolved that I do not experience these feelings, and just think "Wow, DD is so authentic--what a pure expression of her feelings"? I mean, nonsnarkily--kudos to you if you are in this place. I am not, and I would venture to say that the vast majority of parents are nowhere near it, either.

[Evan&Anna's_Mom]

Originally Posted by scubamama

Judgement doesn't help. Help doesn't judge. And I believe judgement damages the Trust of oneself; and damages the Trust that others are an advocate for us.

But people judge other people all the time. Whether judgement is good or bad seems irrelevant to certain extent because it happens and nothing we do is going to change that.

Adults and other children judge my kids all the time. On a play date, in the classroom, wherever they are, others judge them. Some people even have a "right" to judge them. Heck, in a way, I even PAY the teachers to judge them. That's part of their job -- to evaluate both academic and social behavior and help the child improve/learn. How do you do that without first forming a judgement of said behaviour?

Note that I chose times when I wasn't present. I'm not talking about how I judge their behavior (though I do and I'm not about to say that I shouldn't -- I think that's my job too). But to keep this out of personal parenting philosophy, lets confine the idea to times when I'm not there and not invested in the situation. My child is still judged and others react to him or her according to the judgement they form. It is a fact of being part of a human social structure. So how does your "no judgement" approach work within the reality of the world? Again, I don't get it and I'm starting to think that just never will.

[captain crunchy]

i don't think people who coach their children more than me are selfish control freaks...I was speaking in terms of "correcting" and even then I don't think I said that people who do that are selfish control freaks.

...but no matter how *gently* someone puts it, I believe that when one is correcting their child's behavior, especially in social situations for others to witness, or even taking them aside -- where everyone in said social situation knows what is going on... or even in private later where the child is basically being told that how they acted was wrong, and by extension, an embarrassment for the parent ...it seems to me that isn't my personal definition of modeling respect.

I think many parents on here, just generally speaking, DO seek a control dynamic with their children....that doesn't mean they are bad parents....in fact I believe many parents on here are quite loving, and gentle, and try very hard to be respectful of their children etc... however, in my humble opinion, I don't care for a dynamic of control. I don't subscribe to the philosophy that my child is going to turn out to be a denture wearing, rude, filth living, jobless weirdo with no social skills just because I don't make her brush her teeth, or say thank you on cue, or force her to clean her room or whatever.

[Fuamami]

Originally Posted by captain crunchy

I don't subscribe to the philosophy that my child is going to turn out to be a denture wearing, rude, filth living, jobless weirdo with no social skills just because I don't make her brush her teeth, or say thank you on cue, or force her to clean her room or whatever.

Well, I don't subscribe to the philosophy that my children are going to turn out to be repressed, inauthentic, out of touch, miserable people pleaser because my dh and I have chosen a "control dynamic". Still, I would prefer not to be lumped in with authoritarian spankers, I don't appreciate the insinuation.

[captain crunchy]

I didn't mention spanking in my post actually. I know most people here don't spank, but I do strongly believe that "not spanking" doesn't automatically mean someone is practicing gentle discipline. I am not saying you don't practice gentle discipline, I am not in your home, I would say from most of your posts you seem to be a very loving, caring mama who wants to do the best by and for your kids as we most do...

I was just speaking generally, and I am sorry if you felt like I was specifically *targeting* you or speaking specifically of you. I was speaking more in general terms, about the dynamic of forcing children to be polite in situations where they obviously are not feeling very polite or gracious at the moment.

[Fuamami]

Originally Posted by captain crunchy

I didn't mention spanking in my post actually. I know most people here don't spank, but I do strongly believe that "not spanking" doesn't automatically mean someone is practicing gentle discipline. I am not saying you don't practice gentle discipline, I am not in your home, I would say from most of your posts you seem to be a very loving, caring mama who wants to do the best by and for your kids as we most do...

I was just speaking generally, and I am sorry if you felt like I was specifically *targeting* you or speaking specifically of you. I was speaking more in general terms, about the dynamic of forcing children to be polite in situations where they obviously are not feeling very polite or gracious at the moment.

I didn't feel like you were specifically *targeting* me. I also strongly believe that "not spanking" doesn't automatically mean someone is practicing gentle discipline. But I also believe that there's a whole lot of "gentle discipline" other than non-coercive parenting, or whatever you practice. And you have made repeated references in this discussion to shaming, scolding, yelling and punishing as being the only alternative to what you are espousing. This is in spite of the fact that all of us who have been advocating for "the dynamic of forcing children to be polite in situations where they are obviously not feeling very polite" have stated that we would never do this. That's what I have found offensive in your posts.

[captain crunchy]

Well 10 pages later, I still don't know what most people would do in those situations *sigh*

On one hand I see people saying they would never embarrass or shame or punish their child for not saying thank you or whatever, but then in the next sentence or another post they say things like they would "give the look" or "nudge" or "correct" or "remind" them...or better yet, take them in private and have a "talk" .... all in front of Aunt Sally (or whoever)... and to me that is shaming....I guess that is just my take on it because I would never want someone to do that to me, as a child or now as an adult...

[Fuamami]

Originally Posted by captain crunchy

Well 10 pages later, I still don't know what most people would do in those situations *sigh*

On one hand I see people saying they would never embarrass or shame or punish their child for not saying thank you or whatever, but then in the next sentence or another post they say things like they would "give the look" or "nudge" or "correct" or "remind" them...or better yet, take them in private and have a "talk" .... all in front of Aunt Sally (or whoever)... and to me that is shaming....I guess that is just my take on it because I would never want someone to do that to me, as a child or now as an adult...

Yes, which brings us again to the question of whether or not we can tell if our children are embarrassed. I feel no need to convince anyone of my expertise on my children's emotions, so I guess I'm done.

In parting, let me say that I still believe some children need more than modeling. My brother and SIL have excellent manners, they are two of the politest, most charming people I know -- my brother used to be a diplomat, in fact. But my nephew isn't getting it, for whatever reason. Since I don't believe he's just naturally rude, I think he needs more coaching.

[AppleOrangePear]

I say model model model.. And if there is a time they dont say it the parent can always say it.. if someone gives a gift parent can say "thank you" leave it at that.. I always hate when i hear parents making a big issue out of it especially 2 and younger..... Not giving them something if they dont say it.. then you get kids that use the words however no sincerity behind it......

we have a 2yr old that since 18 months when ever he walks close by he says excuse me , and using thanks and please consistantly : O ) though if he doesnt i dont say anything... ESPECIALLY hes only 2.. I know some adults that have less manners

[aira]

Originally Posted by scubamama

Instead, if we are focused on the child's underlying need and faciliating them to meet their need in a mutually agreeable way (with information about impact), judgement of their behavior can be non-present and even counter-productive. Furthermore, focusing on the underlying need SOLVES THE PROBLEM, if we facilitate a mutually agreeable alternative. It is difficult to feel that someone is advocating and partnered with you to meet your needs when they are judging you, your actions, your impact, or your intent.

Judgement doesn't help. Help doesn't judge. And I believe judgement damages the Trust of oneself; and damages the Trust that others are an advocate for us.

I learn much from you, Mama!

[johub]

Originally Posted by captain crunchy

See, I can't have discussions with people who's parenting philosophies are SO vastly different than mine. I don't believe this statement is true at all.

We do it all the time!!
And I do think the disupted statement is very true.

eta. oops my router was down all day and i came in so late I didnt finish reading where you mentioned that you DO have discussions here all the time with people of different parenting philosophies!

Great fun guys! Sooner or later we will have this same debate over almost every discipline issue we can think of !

[captain crunchy]

We do it all the time!!

lol yeah I know, that is why I recanted that statement -- it was a knee jerk response to a comment that just rubbed me the wrong way...


Just something about the words "allowing our children" to do or not do things we really don't have any control over...just control over how we react or whether or not we punish them (we won't be punishing), gets me cranked sometimes...

[afishwithabike]

I constantly say please, thank-you and Bless you around my DC. A few days ago my DD came up to me and handed me her sippy cup and said pweeps (which is please btw). After I got her drink she said dant doo (which is thank-you). When DS sneezes she says bwetts doo (you guessed it Bless you). She is 18 mo. Last Sat when I was crying because DH worked a 15 hour shift and I missed him she came up to me and doo ugh (You Hug?). All you ever need to do is treat them kindly and with manners and they will mimic it. Monkey see Monkey do.

[FoxyMom]

Has anybody mentioned pulling the child aside a little later and reminding them when they are out of earshot so that they don't get embarrassed? I read a few of the posts (had NOT idea this thread was 10 pages long)

But, to answer the OP, I started when DD was born. She still signs please when she says it. DH and I model this behavior, and she is a really polite toddler (26 months old.) I think it's also important to explain to them WHY manners are important. For example, if you don't say thank you to people they won't think that you appreciate things and they won't want to do things for you. Being polite shows that you care.

Zombiewaif. My DD always says bless you when anyone sneezes. She also covers her mouth when she burps and says excuse me. My favorite is when she pulled my blanket up higher on me and said "That better?" LOL!

I do have to admit, that when her grandma gave DD a cookie today, and she didn't say thank you, I asked her "Did you remember to tell grammie thank you?" She turned around and said "Oh! Thank you grammie!"

I think I will continue to do that. "Did you remember?" I won't chastise her, but give her a gentle reminder.

[johub]

ONe of the difficult things with modeling is that the 2 and 3 year old who ALWAYS says please, thank you, bless you etc. . . from modeling, will likely be modeled different behavior when they get older and go to school etc. . .
My oldest dd never had to be taught to say these things when very young, but she started needing reminders when she was older which showed, that despite the fact that other she may spend time with might not do these things, I still expect them.
In fact, right now at 13 she is working on her manners again because i think it is pretty embarassing that her 2 and 3 year old siblings say "please" and "thank you" , "bless you " and even "May I please be excused" with much more reliability than she does. (and them without needing reminders, they started all on their own)
I think like the unschoolers/ homeschoolers, their models are often much more carefully chosen than those of us who send our children to public school or who participate a lot in activities outside a close knit group who shares the same values (like a lot of homeschooling groups are)
Add to that the influence of TV (in some homes) and soon the carefully modeled behavior of the parents becomes outnumbered by less than inspiring behavior models.
Perhaps if I were in a circumstance where I had full control over whom my children came into contact with, any possible "need" for anythign more than modeling would be a moot point.
Joline

[aira]

Joline, it's true that I will homeschool DS b/c I do not agree with the methods or philosophy of compulsory schooling. So it does follow that he won't be exposed to that. But I think there are complex issues with the "controlling the environment" idea. I've thought about this inside and out - and I see so many sides.

On one hand a parent has little to no control over a child's school exvironment. But it isn't an uncontrolled environment. It's kind of a helpless environment, where a child has no recourse for anything, really. That can be very hard on them.

Another angle is that homeschooling allows more "control" of sorts. But it's the control of being able not to control. I don't have any plans to engineer DS's social world or only allow him what I like. But he will get to see me discuss differences I have with people, leave a situation if it's dangerous (physically or emotionally), or handle things some other way. School would never provide him that. So I want him out in the world. But it's not to limit his exposure.

On that note... I have and do get overwhelmed with outside influences. But I'm overwhelmed by the influences - not so much DS. (I made a thread about this a little while ago...) I do get really sick and tired of my family (a close-knit group) imposing their value systems on DS and me. But I was not raised the way I'm raising DS.

[mamasadie]

I've been following this thread with interest. I appreciated the many viewpoints. Here is a great article that I read a few years ago that really opened my eyes to the idea of not imposing any kind of teaching on a child.

http://www.naturalchild.org/naomi_aldort/manners.html

I realize and respect that we are not all going to agree. But I think a concise and well written summation of the non-coercive view would be helpful in explaining things at least so those who practice others forms of parenting have a better idea where we're coming from.

Thanks for a stimulating and enjoyable read. You are all quite clearly dedicated and loving mamas.

[crescentaluna]

So a bit earlier there was the comment, "Well 10 pages later, I still don't know what most people would do in those situations *sigh*" SOOO, here are a few examples ... But bear in mind I think the whole "please, thank you" issue is SO MINOR compared to a kid's overall respectfulness towards others.

I'm at a party (holiday, birthday, whatever) with my 3-year-old. She's given a gift. She tears it open with glee and then looks around for the next exciting thing (no "thank you" given). I'd take the gift, address the giver, and thank them. Probably, if she heard me, DD would chime in with "Tank you!" If not, no biggie. When we are preparing to leave, I might say privately to her "Did you have fun? Yeah? Auntie was so nice to us today. Let's remember to say thank you to her when we say goodbye."

I'm at a party with my 6-year-old. She's given a gift she's in ecstacy over - too in love with it to look up and say "thanks". I address the giver and I thank them, pointing out how pleased DD is. When her initial joy has subsided a bit and I catch her eye, I might mouth the words "Thank you" or say "Come here a sec, sweetie," and quietly ask "Did you remember to say thanks to Auntie? It'll make her happy, I think."

Or ... she doesn't really like the gift ... puts it aside, no comment. I thank the giver, then as soon as I had a private moment with DD, say something like "I guess you didn't like auntie's gift, right? Why not? Well ... I understand you don't like it. Maybe we can change it, I don't know. But you know, you still need to say something to Auntie. She was trying to do something nice, right? Yeah. What do you think you'll say? ... That's nice, I think she'll like that, let's go talk to her." And I'd go with her, and if Auntie made a big deal of "So you didn't like the gift I got you!" I'd intervene, because a 6 year-old is not a diplomat, and try to nicely explain so that NEITHER auntie or DD gets hurt.

I'm at a party with my 8-year-old. She's given a gift... She opens the paper, looks at it, and loudly says "YUCK. This is so STUPID." I would stand up and immediately say, "DD, come in the kitchen with me. I want to talk to you." And I'd take her out of the situation. Shaming? Yes, probably, depending on the kid. But shame is a valuable emotion like others. I have felt ashamed of being mean, and I WANT my child to feel ashamed when they deliberately hurt someone's feelings. And at age 8 my child, if reasonably empathetic, is going to KNOW she just hurt auntie's feelings. In the kitchen I'd say how that was hurtful and rude, and ask if DD could think of a way to make the situation better. I wouldn't demand it but would make it clear the best thing to do would be an apology AND a thank-you for the thoughtfulness of buying a gift at all. At age 8 I am almost certain DD will want to do that.

Just a few examples of where I would use language to go "above and beyond" pure modelling. I do not feel that these are shaming to my child, except as I said possibly the last; I do not think ANY of these are belittling or damaging. In the last case, I think if all I do is model a nice polite "thank you" of my own to Auntie, I am reinforcing DD to feel any and every thing she does is fine, regardless of the feelings of others.

I'm not saying "this is what you should do with YOUR child" but rather what I'd do with my own, who I know.

[FoxyMom]

Cresentluna Well said. And I have to agree.