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when to start with manners? - Page 11

post #201 of 317
Am still curious about the responses of the "modelling only" mamas. Do you still hold that my approach is belittling, coercive, brainwashing, whatever? How would 'modelling only' in the last example really work?

Just curious.
post #202 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by crescantaluna
I have felt ashamed of being mean, and I WANT my child to feel ashamed when they deliberately hurt someone's feelings. And at age 8 my child, if reasonably empathetic, is going to KNOW she just hurt auntie's feelings.
Ahh... It's the deliberate thing I don't buy. I don't think there's anything deliberate about an 8 yo squealing "Yuck!" when they are disappointed. It's assaigning an awful lot of sophistication to the act of opening a package.

And if you've ever felt ashamed of hurting someone, did you realize it on your own? Has the "offended" told you how they felt hurt? Has a third person ever "outed" you for your actions and instructed you to apologize? How were your feelings about theses people after these exchanges?

Do you think it's impossible for someone to come to the conclusion that they have hurt someone after observing that person's subsequent behavior, or after mulling it over in a quieter moment?


ETA: To answer your question in the above post, yes.

I have no issue with the 3-year-old example. I'd do similar, though likely without pointing out to DC that we would be thanking Auntie...

However, I still think your methods in the next 2 examples are embarrassing, belittling, and counterproductive to helping DC becoming genuinely grateful. I won't be doing those things.
post #203 of 317
Well, I hesitate to reply since I did say I was out of this discussion quite some time ago because some of the rsponses were getting painful for me to read....but I did read your post and had that what my responses would be.....and there does not seem to be any more "modellers" willing to particiapte at this point.


Quote:
Originally Posted by crescentaluna

I'm at a party (holiday, birthday, whatever) with my 3-year-old. She's given a gift. She tears it open with glee and then looks around for the next exciting thing (no "thank you" given). I'd take the gift, address the giver, and thank them. Probably, if she heard me, DD would chime in with "Tank you!" If not, no biggie. When we are preparing to leave, I might say privately to her "Did you have fun? Yeah? Auntie was so nice to us today. Let's remember to say thank you to her when we say goodbye."
I would do exactly the same even up to the last comment omitting the "let's remember to say thank you when we say goodbye". Rather than say that, I would thank auntie as we left and dd would be free to say it as well, or not.


Quote:
Originally Posted by crescentaluna

I'm at a party with my 6-year-old. She's given a gift she's in ecstacy over - too in love with it to look up and say "thanks". I address the giver and I thank them, pointing out how pleased DD is. When her initial joy has subsided a bit and I catch her eye, I might mouth the words "Thank you" or say "Come here a sec, sweetie," and quietly ask "Did you remember to say thanks to Auntie? It'll make her happy, I think."
Again, I would do exactly as you would except i would not give dd a look or whisper anythign to her. At 6 years of age I have no doubt that if she was too excited to thank the giver, she would "get it" by hearing me thank the giver. She would either chime in then or not. Up to her. Just like at Christmas when dh gets a gift he is very excited about, I might point out "look how much he likes it!", but would not ask him to say anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crescentaluna
Or ... she doesn't really like the gift ... puts it aside, no comment. I thank the giver, then as soon as I had a private moment with DD, say something like "I guess you didn't like auntie's gift, right? Why not? Well ... I understand you don't like it. Maybe we can change it, I don't know. But you know, you still need to say something to Auntie. She was trying to do something nice, right? Yeah. What do you think you'll say? ... That's nice, I think she'll like that, let's go talk to her." And I'd go with her, and if Auntie made a big deal of "So you didn't like the gift I got you!" I'd intervene, because a 6 year-old is not a diplomat, and try to nicely explain so that NEITHER auntie or DD gets hurt.
Same as situation number 2. Most 6 years olds would pick up on the cue if I say thanks. And if my dd didn't, well that is between auntie and dd (with me helping if I can). I really do not think auntie is going to feel any better getting a forced thanks from a child that was just made to say it. Yes auntie's feelings are still hurt (as I think they would be either way) but at least I do not double dd's issues after she got a gift she was unhappy with my embarrassing her and forcing her to say something she does not feel.


Quote:
Originally Posted by crescentaluna
I'm at a party with my 8-year-old. She's given a gift... She opens the paper, looks at it, and loudly says "YUCK. This is so STUPID." I would stand up and immediately say, "DD, come in the kitchen with me. I want to talk to you." And I'd take her out of the situation. Shaming? Yes, probably, depending on the kid. But shame is a valuable emotion like others. I have felt ashamed of being mean, and I WANT my child to feel ashamed when they deliberately hurt someone's feelings. And at age 8 my child, if reasonably empathetic, is going to KNOW she just hurt auntie's feelings. In the kitchen I'd say how that was hurtful and rude, and ask if DD could think of a way to make the situation better. I wouldn't demand it but would make it clear the best thing to do would be an apology AND a thank-you for the thoughtfulness of buying a gift at all. At age 8 I am almost certain DD will want to do that.
Well, first off, I find this situation nearly impossible. My child has been raised non-coersively since birth and already is remarkably respectful. An 8 year old that is that out of tune with empathy has either not been treated respectfully themselves or is so disappointed that they lose themselves for a moment. Shaming by me will not help in either situation. So, what would I do? I would simply apoplogize to the gift giver for dd's reaction, try and find some way to thank them...."that color yellow is just beautiful!"....and move on. I am sure if dd were upset enough to say that, she probably would need some private support from me. And again, I am quite sure that after the initial outburst and some time to think about it, any 8 year old that has been respectfully treated would want to remedy the situation either with help or not. Also, while i would not bring it up as a disucssion topic at a later time, I would guess that dd would at which time I would bring up how hurt auntie looked. dd would have to deicde for herself what she wanted to do about it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by crescentaluna
Just a few examples of where I would use language to go "above and beyond" pure modelling. I do not feel that these are shaming to my child, except as I said possibly the last; I do not think ANY of these are belittling or damaging. In the last case, I think if all I do is model a nice polite "thank you" of my own to Auntie, I am reinforcing DD to feel any and every thing she does is fine, regardless of the feelings of others.
I do think parts of your examples could be shaming for some kids, I think they would do little to "teach", but that is MY opinion. I am sure others here (most probably) would disagree. You think (as quoted in example #4) that shame is an important emotion for teaching children. I think it is harmful. So I think that is the key point where we disagree. Does that make either of us bad parents? No. Just different. Also, the non-modellers on here are more concerned about "outcomes" than i am. I do not worry about how my child will "turn out" as I see her as a complete person already. She is what she is at that time. I do not aim to "mold" her. She "molds" herself and I help when she asks. Maybe she wants to grow up to be a mean manner-less bully? I highly doubt it so I trust her to seek the info and help needed to become the person she wants to be.
post #204 of 317
I completely agree yooper...completely.

One thing though, is that I have to just clarify that I don't worry about how my daughter is going to *turn out*. I have every faith that she will grow to be a beautiful human being (inside) as she is now and has been from the day I gave birth to her.

I do feel though, that the way my husband and I are choosing to relate to our daughter, specifically in this respect will greatly benefit her in the future, that's all. I feel that one of our roles as her parents is to be a soft place for her as she discovers who she is, who she wants to be, how she feels, what she likes, what makes her content, what upsets her ... and all that entails. In my opinion, teaching her from a very young age to say one thing when she is feeling the exact opposite, isn't contributing to that.
post #205 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by yoopervegan
Also, the non-modellers on here are more concerned about "outcomes" than i am. I do not worry about how my child will "turn out" as I see her as a complete person already. She is what she is at that time. I do not aim to "mold" her. She "molds" herself and I help when she asks. Maybe she wants to grow up to be a mean manner-less bully? I highly doubt it so I trust her to seek the info and help needed to become the person she wants to be.
Well, I said I wouldn't get back in this too, but...

I definitely worry about how my dd will "turn out". Sure, she's a complete person already, but she's going to change a whole, whole lot between now and the time she leaves my household. And I don't think anyone wants to be a manner-less bully, but there are certainly a lot of them out there. And those people don't seem very happy, and I think a lot of it is due to frustration from being unable to develop strong relationships because they don't have good social skills. I don't want my children to have to worry about that, and I think a lot of socializing and manners is just habit, a habit that might need reinforcement.

Also, let me add that I think it's presuming a lot to say that someone will only act disrespectfully if they have not been treated with respect. Especially an eight year old. I also think it's presuming a WHOLE lot to assume that all eight year olds have enough empathy to automatically detect the appropriate behavior in all social situations. That doesn't come naturally to a lot of people.
post #206 of 317
I don't worry about how my daughter will turn out because truthfully, I have no control over it. There will come a time where she will be able to make 100% of her decisions 100% of the time, which is why we are beginning very early with non-coercion parenting. I have observed many children who are otherwise *good* people, who go nuts practically when they leave their parents house because there is suddenly a world of things they are *allowed* to do and boy if they don't do them all...and then some. I am not saying all kids, but it is something I have observed way more often than not, even with some aspects of myself coming from a very *controlled* childhood.

Of course I hope my daughter is a caring, trustworthy, happy, contented adult... I don't think anyone sits around hoping their adult children are rude A-holes....but seriously, I don't think the difference between a child growing up to be a rude, mannerless heathen with no social skills hinges on whether you force them to thank Aunt Sally.

...and on the same token, I don't think a child is going to grow up to be a robot who doesn't know how they feel about anything if they are forced to say thank you...

...but given the choice between forcing my children to do something and gracefully doing it on their behalf (like thanking or whatever) I will always choose the latter.
post #207 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by natensarah

I definitely worry about how my dd will "turn out". Sure, she's a complete person already, but she's going to change a whole, whole lot between now and the time she leaves my household. And I don't think anyone wants to be a manner-less bully, but there are certainly a lot of them out there. And those people don't seem very happy, and I think a lot of it is due to frustration from being unable to develop strong relationships because they don't have good social skills. I don't want my children to have to worry about that, and I think a lot of socializing and manners is just habit, a habit that might need reinforcement.

Also, let me add that I think it's presuming a lot to say that someone will only act disrespectfully if they have not been treated with respect. Especially an eight year old. I also think it's presuming a WHOLE lot to assume that all eight year olds have enough empathy to automatically detect the appropriate behavior in all social situations. That doesn't come naturally to a lot of people.
Somewhere in the last 11 pages I am sure it was said that yes, there are manner-less people that are unhappy with thier lack of social skills. Seeing as it is the norm for parents to shame, bully, make parrot, "discuss", and remind children to have manners, I would have to guess that many if not most of these "manner-less" people were either completely neglected by their parents or were coerced into false manners as children.

And secondly, I know or have known a great deal of 8 year olds. I do think they are quite capable of empathy....in many cases way more so than adults. What they lack sometimes is impulse control and perfect memories. People expect that. Poeple forgive children that lose themselves as it is part od growing up. How is shaming and embarrassing a teaching point? I just do not get it. How is heaping some parental disapproval on top of aunties fallen face or diapproving look going to do anything except make a kid not want to ask or rely on help from adults. Maybe many kids would not pick up on the parents apology and gratitude AT THAT MOMENT due to being in the thick of some strong emotions. But after they calm down, most will see both sides of the situation. Am I giving 8 year olds too much credit? I do not think so. Maybe the 8 year olds everyone else are thinking of are so used to being told what to do that they do not even think about it any more?
post #208 of 317
I knew that by posting anything definite the firing squad would come out! So be it.

yooper said about the rude 8-y-o ... "Well, first off, I find this situation nearly impossible. My child has been raised non-coersively since birth and already is remarkably respectful. An 8 year old that is that out of tune with empathy has either not been treated respectfully themselves or is so disappointed that they lose themselves for a moment."

OR ...

She heard a kid say it at a birthday party, and it got big laughs.
Or she heard it on a tv show or movie.
Or a classmate said something like that to her when she traded lunch.
Or a girl at school said it to someone else, hurting the other girl's feelings, and DD is thinking about flexing her own power.
Or she heard auntie's teenaged sons being rude to her and wanted to also try being rude to auntie.
Or ... on and on.

All of which, sad to say, are experiences that happen to 8 year olds who are not sequestered away. My dd will not be sheltered to the point she's never seen bad behavior, and she's a human being: she WILL experiment with being rude, and mean, and deliberately naughty. It's part of being human. I will continue to love her through that. (Unless of course she *is* an entirely enlightened being, which I don't yet rule out!)

If you expect your child to never explore that part of their humanity, I think you are setting unfairly demanding standards.

8-year-olds are far more sophisticated than you give credit for, is what I'm saying. Being raised for 8 years in a respectful environment, an outburst like the one I described would NOT be the result of simple disappointment - maybe for a 5-y-o - Not for an 8 y-o. For my sweet DD, an outburst like that would be for some reason, and a rarity.

I have had experiences, as an adult, where a friend or family member pointed out my own behaviors so that I was struck with shame. Just a handful, and they have stuck with me. Not comfortable but extremely valuable; I can honestly say I am so grateful for these friends and these experiences. I also have a DP whose culture is quite different from mine (he's white upper class) and who does clue me in about what is polite, how to behave, etc. I don't "feel shamed" by this but grateful. Maybe what I'm saying is that I do not project my own "shame" issues onto DD, because I don't really have them. And right now neither does she.

I believe in discussing the reasons WHY we say "please, thanks" with a 6yo because most 6yo will have no innate idea why we say such things; I want her to understand that the goal is not to produce the phrase on cue but to *make someone else happy*.

I don't "worry about how DD will turn out" - she is stunning already, and as she blossoms into herself she will be even more so. My intuition about this is 110%. Yet I AM responsible in some ways for "how she turns out"! Like a tree growing that will always be itself, but is shaped by the place it grows. Whatever I am responsible for, I take it seriously.
post #209 of 317
Well, that is great. You are happy and comfortable with how you treat your dc and I am with how I treat my dc. It is quite clear that no one is going to change thier minds. I am never going to think it is OK to use shame as a teaching tool. You are not going to think it is OK to not step in a take control. I do realize kids try things out that they see and hear. This is not a problem for me. I think it is pretty normal. I do think a 6 year old can figure out why we say please and thank you. And I have zero doubt that dd will grow up to know how to use manners if she wants to. I have met many children and adults that have been raised non-coersively and find them to be very pleasent people. I have met many children and adults that have been taught manners with shame, reminders, looks, and punishment....some are pleasant, many are not.
post #210 of 317
I have read some of this thread, and really wanted to chime in to say AIRA, YOU ARE DOING WONDERFUL THINGS! What you are doing here for children should be applauded, so I am here to do that . I am not going against anyone who disagrees with Aira, so forgive me if this sounds chafing to others. But she is just saying some amazing, world changing things. For if we change how children are parented, we can change the world!

We all have little kids, right? But what about us big kids? I was never, ever told to say please, thank you, nothing. Yet my mother had five very polite children. And we are now very polite adults. In fact, my mother hates seeing children pulled up for manners and it makes us all cringe - it looks so insincere when the child says thank you after being reminded, for starters. My brother has two older children, one is 16, and they are lovely - never a reminder graced their ears. I don't remind my daughter and I am confident, because of my parents, that she'll be ok - regardless of a slip up now and then. In fact, she is the only three year old I've ever known to say things like, "Oh this is just wonderful, thank you from the bottom of my heart!" - because that's what I say to her. Sure, all of us here are polite now regardless of how our parents treated us; my point is that reminders aren't necessary if you treat them with the golden rule - less stress for parent and child is the bonus. Let us not model insincerity, or expect our 5 year olds to behave like 12 year olds. Every now and then that will happen, but to expect it isn't fair.
post #211 of 317
Quote:
For if we change how children are parented, we can change the world!
Exactly! Thank you for saying it so succinctly.

Pat
post #212 of 317


Oh my!
post #213 of 317
Quote:
I am never going to think it is OK to use shame as a teaching tool.
True 'dat.
post #214 of 317
My dd is almost 27 months old...and is very polite. But, we are polite people. If I ask dh to do something for me, I ask please, and when he does it, I say thank you. So, we've taught dd to be that way from the beginning. If she is asking for something rudely and being demanding, we remind her that she needs to ask nicely. I personally see nothing wrong with that. I often need reminded of how I should be acting in a given situation...and I'm an adult! I don't take offense if someone corrects me...unless I'm having pride issues that day.
post #215 of 317
Not sure, but you may have misunderstood my comments about shame: I do not say it's "a teaching tool for parents" but that it's an emotion we can learn from. I don't belive that the "dark" emotions like sadness, loneliness, shame, guilt are just bad things to be avoided at all costs, but rather are emotions a fully-developed, mature person will feel at times. And should.

Obviously, there's still disagreement about the scenarios I sketched earlier. When I hear, "Those scenarios are shaming," I read it as: "I am a sensitive person, and if I were the child in question, I'd be shamed." And I can believe that. And were my DD also that sensitive I'd behave differently.

But I don't believe ALL or even most children experience things that way.

Bottom line - I can not believe blanket generalizations about how ALL kids experience ALL things. Of course, you have the right to believe whatever you do.

Thanks for the discussion, in any case!
post #216 of 317
Quote:
Not sure, but you may have misunderstood my comments about shame: I do not say it's "a teaching tool for parents" but that it's an emotion we can learn from. I don't belive that the "dark" emotions like sadness, loneliness, shame, guilt are just bad things to be avoided at all costs, but rather are emotions a fully-developed, mature person will feel at times. And should.
(emphasis mine)

I agree with the above quote, I do. However, my only point was, I am not going to be the person who contributes to my daughter feeling the ways that are bolded if at all humanly possible...and I believe it is in almost all situations.

I fully believe there are enough people in the world that will *contribute* to her feeling like that at different stages through her life...but I won't be one of them if I can help it.

The posters are right, I can't tell everyone's emotions at all times...but I have been in enough social situations with children to see the averted eyes, the mumbled *thank you* as they stare at the floor, the look at mom or dad after they mumble said thank you to make sure they *did it right*, and other non-verbal cues that are clearly given when most children are "reminded" of their manners...

Will it damage them for life? Who can say. When I see those things though, I do know in the moment the child feels uncomfortable, and I want to prevent temporary upset as much as I want to prevent permanant damage.
post #217 of 317
Ok, I am going to add a bit of a twist into this discussion. I don't feel guilt or shame. I do sometimes feel apologetic and I apologize. But, I don't carry any of that sense of regret into future ruminations. I strive to be very conscious of my actions and am comfortable taking full accountability for my actions; therefore I don't see a place for guilt, nor shame. (maybe I am a sociopath : )

Another issue is that I am authentic about my emotional reactions about how I prefer to be treated. So, when ds has requested help in a demanding manner, I will share how I prefer to be addressed or treated, without shaming, nor expectation of performance. Not in a manner of teaching, but in a manner of requesting how I desire to be treated. I have done so professionally and personally on other occasions too.

And, I do want to mention that desiring to 'prevent a child from feeling uncomfortable, and wanting to prevent temporary upset' when authentically expressing myself is not a specific goal of mine. However, I do not speak with an intent to elicit those feelings either. I don't remit expressing my own feelings in an effort to protect our son from the experience of his actions. This is a fine line. I am not desiring to 'teach a lesson', but to maintain personal boundaries. I don't consider that our son is responsible for my reactions, but I do attempt to be true to expressing my feelings.

I believe sharing feelings and needs is a an opportunity to nurture connectivity with information about how I feel about different events as they occur in my life. I don't use the lexicon of "you made me feel xyz". I own my feelings AND I do share how I feel, BUT without attributing blame or accountability to others for my feelings. I would say "I don't like to be hit, I feel sad when I see animals hurt, I feel angry when I am kicked.' Or, I might say 'I prefer to be asked to do things with a 'please' or 'would you mama?', when ds (or dh, for that matter) says 'get me some apple juice' if this were a consistent issue to me. But not in front of anyone and not regarding how he addresses others.

For things such as an unwanted gift from me, I would just empathize and offer to return it. I might even express how I would prefer to be told that he didn't want it more gently, and explain that I desired to gift him with what he wanted. But again not in front of anyone and not regarding how he addresses others. I have advocated for dh in a similar manner too, helping ds understand the impact of ds's unhappy reaction and dh's intent. But, not in an expectation of a 'redo' of the response in some "appropriate" fashion.

Pat
post #218 of 317
Weird, I do feel shame and guilt. I wouldn't say that I wallow or drown in them, but I do feel almost every emotion on the range of the emotional rainbow...That having been said though, just because I feel them occasionally doesn't mean I think they are emotions that serve much of a purpose to hold on to.

For instance, there was a mutual friend of mine and another woman who had made some comments at a big vegan gettogether that I didn't particularly agree with. The next time my friend and I were together, I was basically being a gossipy bitch about this woman, saying a bunch of things I didn't have the nerve to say to her in person...when I left that exchange I did feel ashamed and guilty. That is not the person I am or the person I want to be, but no one's perfect. To top that off, I saw her at an anti-war protest and she was SO kind to my daughter, then I felt doubly like poop. Of course I didn't let it ruin my life, but I know that I was wrong and that I wouldn't feel better until I did something. I apologized to the other friend about saying negative things and explained I was frustrated and was venting and I truly didn't feel that way about the other woman...and explained to the woman when I saw her again that there were a few comments she made (politically and animal rights wise) that I didn't agree with and I was frustrated that I didn't get the chance to explain my side of the discussion blah blah blah... all was good.

My point to that longwinded story, is that I feel people are born social creatures and that they do feel a world of emotions, both good and bad....and that small children don't need these emotions thrust upon them in the form of guilt, shame, manipulation, whatever to "learn" how to "be" adults in the future.

If there is such thing as a sociopath, I believe it is a chemical reaction in the brain from birth, or as a result of growing up in a situation that is SO repressed of any genuine feeling that the person stifles as second nature...or a combination of the two, I don't know. I don't think sociopaths are created by NOT forcing lil Johnny to say thank you to Aunt Sally any more than I think they are created by reminding...

....but at the same time, if I have a chance for my child to have a pleasant experience with the oppurtunity to observe a social situation to come to their own conclusions about how they choose to act in the next social situation...that is the choice I will make over tainting their learning or observational experience by pushing my own code of behaviors on them. (that is what I meant by preventing temporary pain or embarrassment for a greater *goal*...of allowing a natural environment for them to come to their code of acceptable behaviors through their own observations, thoughts, reactions from others etc and not from me nudging them or giving a look or whatever)
post #219 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by scubamama
Ok, I am going to add a bit of a twist into this discussion. I don't feel guilt or shame. I do sometimes feel apologetic and I apologize. But, I don't carry any of that sense of regret into future ruminations. I strive to be very conscious of my actions and am comfortable taking full accountability for my actions; therefore I don't see a place for guilt, nor shame. (maybe I am a sociopath : )

Another issue is that I am authentic about my emotional reactions about how I prefer to be treated. So, when ds has requested help in a demanding manner, I will share how I prefer to be addressed or treated, without shaming, nor expectation of performance. Not in a manner of teaching, but in a manner of requesting how I desire to be treated. I have done so professionally and personally on other occasions too.

And, I do want to mention that desiring to 'prevent a child from feeling uncomfortable, and wanting to prevent temporary upset' when authentically expressing myself is not a specific goal of mine. However, I do not speak with an intent to elicit those feelings either. I don't remit expressing my own feelings in an effort to protect our son from the experience of his actions. This is a fine line. I am not desiring to 'teach a lesson', but to maintain personal boundaries. I don't consider that our son is responsible for my reactions, but I do attempt to be true to expressing my feelings.

I believe sharing feelings and needs is a an opportunity to nurture connectivity with information about how I feel about different events as they occur in my life. I don't use the lexicon of "you made me feel xyz". I own my feelings AND I do share how I feel, BUT without attributing blame or accountability to others for my feelings. I would say "I don't like to be hit, I feel sad when I see animals hurt, I feel angry when I am kicked.' Or, I might say 'I prefer to be asked to do things with a 'please' or 'would you mama?', when ds (or dh, for that matter) says 'get me some apple juice' if this were a consistent issue to me. But not in front of anyone and not regarding how he addresses others.

For things such as an unwanted gift from me, I would just empathize and offer to return it. I might even express how I would prefer to be told that he didn't want it more gently, and explain that I desired to gift him with what he wanted. But again not in front of anyone and not regarding how he addresses others. I have advocated for dh in a similar manner too, helping ds understand the impact of ds's unhappy reaction and dh's intent. But, not in an expectation of a 'redo' of the response in some "appropriate" fashion.

Pat
This is reasonable. The bold is mine, I like that sentence. Do you do NLP? Neurolinguistic Parenting. (also neurolinguistic programming in most circles). They advocate modelling behavior and not "stifling creativity and potential genius" by molding a child to fit one's own idea of appropriate behavior - even if that behavior is considered the norm of one's society. What struck me as NLP in your post was your phrasing. NLP does not advocate admonishing behavior, but instead reflecting how the behavior affects others, allowing choice. For instance, instead of "Don't hit!" or "We shouldn't hit" or whatever form of words usually taken by parents, they encourage "I don't like it when you hit me" or "That hurt!" Which is a completely reasonable guiding tool, if used correctly. The latter is showing repercussions and natural consequences (telling the truth; saying how you feel; showing what happens - allowing thought and choice to build in one's child) yet avoiding admonishing, demanding and expectations which removes choice and highlights failing.

Another example are thought-preceding-action phrases which are along the lines of "Don't think of a pink elephant" and a pink elephant inevitably entering the mind. Instead of saying to a child, "Don't drop that." (negative outcome potential of "drop that") we choose "Hold on tight with two hands." (positive outcome option of "holding on").

I think that sharing with a child how their actions or words make you feel, while at the same time owning those feelings as a choice you have made teaches the child this same behavior also. However, this type of parenting only works for a small minority of people. For the majority, it seems to just confuse them and make them feel powerless - for to own responsibility for one's own feelings is a tough ask for the average Westerner.
post #220 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calm
This is reasonable. The bold is mine, I like that sentence. Do you do NLP? Neurolinguistic Parenting. (also neurolinguistic programming in most circles). They advocate modelling behavior and not "stifling creativity and potential genius" by molding a child to fit one's own idea of appropriate behavior - even if that behavior is considered the norm of one's society. What struck me as NLP in your post was your phrasing. NLP does not advocate admonishing behavior, but instead reflecting how the behavior affects others, allowing choice. For instance, instead of "Don't hit!" or "We shouldn't hit" or whatever form of words usually taken by parents, they encourage "I don't like it when you hit me" or "That hurt!" Which is a completely reasonable guiding tool, if used correctly. The latter is showing repercussions and natural consequences (telling the truth; saying how you feel; showing what happens - allowing thought and choice to build in one's child) yet avoiding admonishing, demanding and expectations which removes choice and highlights failing.

Another example are thought-preceding-action phrases which are along the lines of "Don't think of a pink elephant" and a pink elephant inevitably entering the mind. Instead of saying to a child, "Don't drop that." (negative outcome potential of "drop that") we choose "Hold on tight with two hands." (positive outcome option of "holding on").

I think that sharing with a child how their actions or words make you feel, while at the same time owning those feelings as a choice you have made teaches the child this same behavior also. However, this type of parenting only works for a small minority of people. For the majority, it seems to just confuse them and make them feel powerless - for to own responsibility for one's own feelings is a tough ask for the average Westerner.
Calm, you have intrigued me with a formal name for this practice of mine. Hmmm..I will need to respond later. But yeah that. An interesting question to ponder is 'how could owning responsibility for one's internal emotional experience disempower one'? Actually, I find that it doesn't at all.

Pat
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