The Medical Definition of Phimosis

[busymomof5]

Is actually a tightening of the foreskin around the penis which can be caused by infection or other illness like ... interestingly....diabetes....

Treatement usually does NOT involve circumcision in children...go check the medical literature, people. Phimosis is the word to describe the tightening of the foreskin and it usually goes away with time or treatment of the infection.

Phimosis does not equal CUT.

http://www.nhhn.org/15704.cfm

[MCatLvrMom2A&X]

Originally Posted by busymomof5

Is actually a tightening of the foreskin around the penis which can be caused by infection or other illness like ... interestingly....diabetes....

Almost all of us here r already aware of the definition of phimosis. But a lot of dr dont seem to be aware of what it means as they use the term all the time when describing non retractable forskin in infants/very young boys.

Originally Posted by busymomof5

Treatement usually does NOT involve circumcision in children...go check the medical literature, people. Phimosis is the word to describe the tightening of the foreskin and it usually goes away with time or treatment of the infection.

Phimosis does not equal CUT.

http://www.nhhn.org/15704.cfm

That is true busymom about phimosis should not = cut. Unfourtunatly tho here we see mom's all the time who have come in with the dr having diagnosed phimosis and saying that circ is the only answer. They do not offer the parent anouther alternative or even really discuss it with them. Also we have had mom's come in with newborns and many boys less than a year old with this diagnosis with the dr saying if it isnt better in X number of months then they need to schedual a circ.

I for one would love for you to hang around I am sure as a mother of intact boys and the wife of a Dr. you could have some valuable information to impart. I really would love to hear your opinion on the sticky at the top "A warning to parents of intact son's" there r so many stories there of forced retraction including mine Both times my son was examaned by 2 different dr both tried to retract even after me saying for them not to. only 1 dr has ever seen my son and not tried to retract him. I found it ironic that this dr was actually the oldest ped practicing there over 60.

[<<>>]

Children with congenital phimosis may have a history of recent catheterization or of parents forcibly retracting the foreskin in an attempt to clean the glans.

http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic423.htm

Now who gave them the crazy idea that they needed to forcibly retaract???

[busymomof5]

Originally Posted by MRDCatLvr

I for one would love for you to hang around I am sure as a mother of intact boys and the wife of a Dr. you could have some valuable information to impart. I really would love to hear your opinion on the sticky at the top "A warning to parents of intact son's" there r so many stories there of forced retraction including mine Both times my son was examaned by 2 different dr both tried to retract even after me saying for them not to. only 1 dr has ever seen my son and not tried to retract him. I found it ironic that this dr was actually the oldest ped practicing there over 60.

Thanks...I think you hold the minority opinion though about me sticking around.

It sux that we have to advocate so much for our kids...and ourselves all of the time. I find that I have had to become our school's worst nightmare in order to even get them to pay attention...that I have had to really push to have a VBAC for example etc.

I think that in all areas of our children's lives (an ours) it is incumbent upon us to eduate ourselves and...those around us if we can....to make things better. Many of the older docs really do still hold the 'of course you'll circumcize' opinion.

I always tell people to interview their pediatrician BEFORE baby arrives and to make their wishes clear...this way, if you pick someone whose ideas don't gel with yours, you can get away before having to deal with a newborn too....I do the same with physicians that I seek out for myself..and honestly, I've become one of those pesky moms who requests certain teachers for her kids. I'm ashamed ot admit it...but we've had so many bad experiences that I have decided that I don't care...I'll be a steamroller if I have to.

It is so intimidating to have a physician in a white coat in a 'position of power' (or at least they perceive themselves that way. ) to tell you what they will do...but legally, you have the right to refuse any and all treatment.

When my 6 year old was 2, he fell and put a huge hole through his lip/bottom of his mouth. He had to be pappoosed and stitched and I was horrified...truly. What made it worse though was that the surgeon told me that I would have to leave the room. If it had been my first child, I probably would've done it...but...I told him I wasn't leaving. So he said "so, you want your child to be in pain and afraid and see you hear doing nothing about it?" and I said "no, i want my child to know that no matter what happens to him that mommy is there stroking his hair and singing to him and comforting him."

DH talked to the guy later and apparently, he was a new resident who was afraid of the fact that his hands would shake, etc and mom would see it. Hey...not my problem...I still don't care....I would do it again.

It's up to us to just say no...and if a doc does something like circumcising without a signed permission slip...well....you can of course sue the hell out of the hospital and physician.

[busymomof5]

Originally Posted by mommaToThree

Now who gave them the crazy idea that they needed to forcibly retaract???

I don't know. I've seen 4 different pediatricians over the years because we moved and every single one of them told me under NO CIRCUMSTANCES to forcibly retract the foreskin. I, actually didn't know this after my first child was born and was grateful for the advice...since I, personally don't have a penis...I wouldn't have known that and may have tried to clean it that way. Thank goodness for my good pediatrician back then or I might have caused my firstborn damage.

[<<>>]

Originally Posted by busymomof5

It's up to us to just say no...and if a doc does something like circumcising without a signed permission slip...well....you can of course sue the hell out of the hospital and physician.

ITA!
the problem is that there are so many out there uneducated.
3.5 years ago I had a baby girl. Luckily I got a girl for my first 2 kids because if god had given me a boy first and not 3rd, He may of been circumcised.
I was 18, we had no internet, we lived in a small town, we had a girl so no-one mentioned cir.
Luckily when I found out at 18w with my third that "it" was a "he" I looked into cir. And I totally give credit to the internet. because if i didn't have it still, I probley wouldnt have thought twice about cir.....(for my third we homebirthed, didn't vax, and certainly didn't cir. )

some out there just dont know any better

[Quirky]

Originally Posted by busymomof5

Thanks...I think you hold the minority opinion though about me sticking around.

Actually, this post of yours makes me think there's hope for you yet. I think you are well-intentioned, educated, and informed about the issues - but I don't think you have any idea how much MISinformation medical professionals are out there spreading around. Seriously - read more threads here and your eyes will be opened as to how many circ-happy, retraction-happy medipros are out there.

It sux that we have to advocate so much for our kids...and ourselves all of the time.

That is EXACTLY what we are trying to do here...advocate for children and educate parents that they can't just trust doctors and nurses to tell them what's best.

I find that I have had to become our school's worst nightmare in order to even get them to pay attention...that I have had to really push to have a VBAC for example etc.

But why don't you trust teachers to do what's best for your kids? That's what they're educated and paid to do, after all.

Oh, and if you don't like medical advice being dispensed, then perhaps you should stay out of the pregnancy/VBAC forums, where many mamas help educate other pregnant mamas who are facing pressure from their OB/GYNs for repeat c-sections, against homebirth/midwifery care, etc.

I think that in all areas of our children's lives (an ours) it is incumbent upon us to eduate ourselves and...those around us if we can....to make things better. Many of the older docs really do still hold the 'of course you'll circumcize' opinion.

See above. Sad to say, many young docs are circ-happy, too. Hey, it's a cool "procedure" to be done.

I always tell people to interview their pediatrician BEFORE baby arrives and to make their wishes clear...this way, if you pick someone whose ideas don't gel with yours, you can get away before having to deal with a newborn too....

But what if you don't know what you need to know in order to pick a good ped? Where is the information in baby books, on mainstream websites, pamphlets from the OB's office, etc. about why you shouldn't circumcise and how to care for an intact penis? That's the kind of information we're trying to get the word out on here.

I do the same with physicians that I seek out for myself..and honestly, I've become one of those pesky moms who requests certain teachers for her kids. I'm ashamed ot admit it...but we've had so many bad experiences that I have decided that I don't care...I'll be a steamroller if I have to.

It is so intimidating to have a physician in a white coat in a 'position of power' (or at least they perceive themselves that way. ) to tell you what they will do...but legally, you have the right to refuse any and all treatment.

And how many people actually know this? Or believe it? When the doctor goes to retract the baby's foreskin at his 8 month check up, or recommends circ because of "phimosis," how is the parent supposed to know better and refuse?

It's up to us to just say no...and if a doc does something like circumcising without a signed permission slip...well....you can of course sue the hell out of the hospital and physician.

It's up to the doctors to educate parents in the first place about circumcision and the intact penis. This is where I hold the medical profession truly culpable - with respect to no other surgical procedure do they throw up their hands and say "it's the parent's choice, I don't like doing them, but what can I do, the parents want it??"

If I went to the doctor and said "I had my tonsils out when I was 20, it hurt like hell even with anesthesia, I don't want my baby to remember the pain, so please go ahead and rip her tonsils out without anesthesia the day after she's born without anesthesia because it's cleaner not to have yucky tonsils anyway" the doctor would educate me as to why s/he couldn't in good conscience or medical judgment do that. If I insisted, if s/he were ethical, I'd get fired as a patient.

It should be the same with circumcision. It is an unnecessary, non-therapeutic surgery as per the AAP, yet doctors do not sit down and educate parents about the risks and pain involved and the benefits of an intact foreskin. They just and say "well, it's your choice." And for every foreskin they cut off they dig the hole of their moral culpability that much deeper.

[Minky]

I'm all for her sticking around too.
And please, I said I was leaving after the abortion debate thing in here, and I decided to come back. People can say things in the heat of the moment and then decide they were wrong.

[acrathbun]

Busymomof5,

I feel silly calling you that, but since you don't have a signature or any other "handle" then I guess that's your name

I wanted to say a couple of things.

First, I totally get what you are saying about members advising other members about medical care. There have been some situations where I have literally wanted to scream into the computer "RUN TO THE DR." especially wrt pediatric issues or pregnant moms w/ pre-e. However, this is a natural living community and most of the members here like to try more natural methods first. I will speak up on issues I know something about (heart defects, kidney defects/reflux, hemophilia, pre-eclampsia, HELLP, etc.) but unless I see something that scares the hell out of me, I generally try to keep my more medical-minded opinions to myself. I've found it easiest to avoid a couple of forums that tend to make me

Second, my brother is a doctor, my father is a doctor, my uncle and two of my aunts are doctors (see a trend here?). I am NOT a doctor, I am a mother & mothering is my primary work at this point in my life. However, due to my children's unique medical problems, we deal with many, many doctors on a regular basis ~ and almost all of the sub-specialties. In my experience you don't ask a cardiologist about foreskin or a neurologist or a hemotologist. They each have their own specialty, at which they excel.

Most of the issues members here have are with pediatricians, ER doctors and urologists (someone correct me if I am mistaken). These are people who, simply by the specialty they have chosen, should be exceedingly up to date on the care of an intact penis. ER doctors, I can cut a bit of slack to, because their primary focus is on making sure their patients have an airway, a blood pressure and heart rate...but if they see kids at all, I would hope they would take a bit of time to educate themselves.

At the very least, we want doctors who will listen to a patient or the patients parents. Most good docs know how to do this, and how to disagree w/o being offensive.

I think that part of your current problem on the boards is that you jumped right in w/o an intro OR a gentle "nudge" kind of post. I think that if you want to stick it out & get to know us all, you could be an incredible asset and resource...but if it's just too uncomfortable for you, I get that.

Anyway, that's my pov...and my

[Daisyuk]

Originally Posted by busymomof5

It is so intimidating to have a physician in a white coat in a 'position of power' (or at least they perceive themselves that way. ) to tell you what they will do...but legally, you have the right to refuse any and all treatment.

When my 6 year old was 2, he fell and put a huge hole through his lip/bottom of his mouth. He had to be pappoosed and stitched and I was horrified...truly. What made it worse though was that the surgeon told me that I would have to leave the room. If it had been my first child, I probably would've done it...but...I told him I wasn't leaving. So he said "so, you want your child to be in pain and afraid and see you hear doing nothing about it?" and I said "no, i want my child to know that no matter what happens to him that mommy is there stroking his hair and singing to him and comforting him."

DH talked to the guy later and apparently, he was a new resident who was afraid of the fact that his hands would shake, etc and mom would see it. Hey...not my problem...I still don't care....I would do it again.

It's up to us to just say no...and if a doc does something like circumcising without a signed permission slip...well....you can of course sue the hell out of the hospital and physician.

Papoosed? Does that mean what I think it means? You tie up small children over there so they can't move? Doesn't that panic them? That sounds utterly inhuman.

God, I looked it up..... this just gets worse and worse....and it's not just toddlers...how can you allow them to do this to your children? If we need to restrain a child over here, a parent does the holding, they might be scared but nothing to what they would be strapped into one of those horrible contraptions.

:Puke

[busymomof5]

Originally Posted by Quirky

Oh, and if you don't like medical advice being dispensed, then perhaps you should stay out of the pregnancy/VBAC forums, where many mamas help educate other pregnant mamas who are facing pressure from their OB/GYNs for repeat c-sections, against homebirth/midwifery care, etc.

You are right about that...you know why? I had a c-section with my firstborn after 48 hours of labor...I had only dialated to 1cm and my waters had broken on their own at the beginning of labor. We ended up trying pitocin after 24 hours of labor and the baby's head simply did not come down into the pelvis. I was devastated to have a c-section...devastated...I had planned a 'natural' birth, had brought my birthing ball, candles, and a tape of music that I had put together just for the occasion. I was all about avoiding the whole 'medicalization' of birth.

I insisted on a vbac with dd #2 and had no complications from the delivery.

With ds#3, I was advised by my OB that new research had come out indicating that there was a higher risk than once thought...and I refused. I switched medical groups to a practice that had midwives and docs who shared my beliefs...and my midwife agreed to deliver me with a backup doc just in case...AND..I hemmorhaged...I passed huge blood clots the size of grapefruits and had to be rushed to emergency surgery where they discovered that where I had had the section before the uterine wall had becoem thinner and full of vasculature. I almost need a hysterectomy and I could have died. When I was discharged 4 days later, my hemoglobin was still only 7.1...and that was after days of treatment with iron etc.

If you had told me it could happen, I wouldn't have believed you...I would have thought the OB just wants the extra money for the c-section...really...but with baby#4 I had a section without complaining...AND I will have a repeat section again...which the doc will have to do earlier than my due date because of the thinning of the wall where the section was performed.

So....it does happen....

[busymomof5]

Originally Posted by Daisyuk

Papoosed? Does that mean what I think it means? You tie up small children over there so they can't move? Doesn't that panic them? That sounds utterly inhuman.

God, I looked it up..... this just gets worse and worse....and it's not just toddlers...how can you allow them to do this to your children? If we need to restrain a child over here, a parent does the holding, they might be scared but nothing to what they would be strapped into one of those horrible contraptions.

:Puke

I think it is awful too. Unfortunately, it was a scar on his face/mouth and we couldn't hold him still. I literally couldn't get his head/arms/legs to hold still...I felt terrible about it too...trust me. Myself and 2 nurses tried....I felt bad about the papoosing, but would have felt worse if he had had scarring from not laying still, etc. The actual trying to hold him still took longer than the pappoose/stitch...the doctor did it very fast...and I held him, stroked his hair, and sang to him the entire time.

Oh, and this was in the USA....in Florida

[CallMeMommy]

I just wanted to say I'm a medical transcriptionist and EVERY SINGLE routine infant circumcision note I type gives a diagnosis of phimosis at the beginning.

[busymomof5]

Originally Posted by acrathbun

Busymomof5,


At the very least, we want doctors who will listen to a patient or the patients parents. Most good docs know how to do this, and how to disagree w/o being offensive.

I think that part of your current problem on the boards is that you jumped right in w/o an intro OR a gentle "nudge" kind of post. I think that if you want to stick it out & get to know us all, you could be an incredible asset and resource...but if it's just too uncomfortable for you, I get that.

Anyway, that's my pov...and my

I think you're right...I probably should have introduced myself and gone about it more gently. I just was so shocked by two different threads that the entire reason that I registered was to express my shock.

We all want good docs that will listen to us and be up-to-date. Unfortunately, there are bad apples out there....and...sometimes as parents we can be so blinded by our love for our children and be 'wrong' too. All I can say is that if you end up with a doctor who won't listen to your pov on things that you should gather as much information as possible from impartial sources and then decide whether or not you want to continue with the doctor/patient relationship or you think you need to interview a new doctor.

[eightyferrettoes]

Originally Posted by busymomof5

So....it does happen....

Bizzare, terrible crap does happen. However, one woman's experience does not an entire universe of experience make.

I think you are really failing to acknowlege how complicit doctors are in perpetuating circumcision-- you are minimizing people's outrage by telling your personal story of how "Doctor Knew Best" after all.

The fact remains the doc do NOT always know best. As they say, even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

The entire VBAC movement has been fighting againt the medical profession... the anti-circ folks are fighting against medical folks, too. Breastfeeders even today encounter stunning ignorance in pediatrician's offices. And that's just the beginning.

Should LLL be forbidden from offering "medical" BF advice? Hopefully not, because if peds are the only acceptable source of knowlege, we might as well start breaking out the formula coupons.

Mamas are smarter than we get credit for being.

[eightyferrettoes]

Originally Posted by busymomof5

All I can say is that if you end up with a doctor who won't listen to your pov on things that you should gather as much information as possible from impartial sources and then decide whether or not you want to continue with the doctor/patient relationship or you think you need to interview a new doctor.

I also want to address this: not all of us have the luxury of interviewing docs and picking a "good" one. I am dang lucky to get ANY medical care. Beggers can't be choosers; this is America.

But that's a whoooole other story, isn't it?

[acrathbun]

I just wanted to say I'm a medical transcriptionist and EVERY SINGLE routine infant circumcision note I type gives a diagnosis of phimosis at the beginning.

That's sick, just sick.

[busymomof5]

Originally Posted by eightyferrettoes

Bizzare, terrible crap does happen. However, one woman's experience does not an entire universe of experience make.

I think you are really failing to acknowlege how complicit doctors are in perpetuating circumcision-- you are minimizing people's outrage by telling your personal story of how "Doctor Knew Best" after all.

The fact remains the doc do NOT always know best. As they say, even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

The entire VBAC movement has been fighting againt the medical profession... the anti-circ folks are fighting against medical folks, too. Breastfeeders even today encounter stunning ignorance in pediatrician's offices. And that's just the beginning.

Should LLL be forbidden from offering "medical" BF advice? Hopefully not, because if peds are the only acceptable source of knowlege, we might as well start breaking out the formula coupons.

Mamas are smarter than we get credit for being.

Of course you are right that there ARE docs who will suggest circumcising or retracting...there are bad apples out there. You may, however, be failing to recognize how 1. complicit many parents are in forcing the issue of wanting to have their child circumcised and 2. the fact that many newer trained docs don't advocate routine circumcision.

I am still glad that I had a VBAC with #2 and #3, BUT, I see now from experience that it isn't just all hot air they are trying to blow up our skirts...there are dangers involved in VBACS. As long as you are willing to take that risk upon yourself and not sue the doctor if you are injured or your baby dies during a hemmorhage situation, then...I say...go for it. Most likely, your VBAC will be ok. You are right...my experience is not a 'universal' one...but I'm not the only one that has ever happened to....most likely, you'll be ok with a vbac...but if your doc doesn't warn you of the risks and give you the option of a c-section, they will be setting themselves up for a major lawsuit. Oh...and many midwives (though not all) won't deliver a VBAC w/o physician back-up because there is an increased risk and they don't want to be liable either.

My good friend is an OB and she pays an outrageous amount of money annually for her liability insurance...hundreds of thousands of dollars...She has been sued for things that are definitely sad..but are not her fault. Most recently, she advised a woman who was pg with twins and had a malformation of the uterus to have a c-section. The mom declined and one of the babies died...and she ended up having to have an emergency c-section to save the other baby. It was tragic...really awful...but not her fault. She's the kind of doctor who gives 150% to her patients...even doing home visits after babies are born if mom is having trouble. She advocates breastfeeding...actually...I don't know a single doctor right now in our circle of friends that doesn't advocate breastfeeding if I'm honest.

There are bad doctors, bad lawyers, bad teachers, bad mothers and fathers, bad .... drivers . You just have to get out there and find a good doc.

[busymomof5]

Originally Posted by eightyferrettoes

I also want to address this: not all of us have the luxury of interviewing docs and picking a "good" one. I am dang lucky to get ANY medical care. Beggers can't be choosers; this is America.

But that's a whoooole other story, isn't it?

I agree with you there wholeheartedly. This country seriously lags behind the rest of the 'westernized' world in providing healthcare to it's citizens.

[Daisyuk]

Well, I still don't understand why tying up a small child only seems necessary in the US. I've never heard of it before, and I've been in Casualty often enough and had several lots of stitches when I was small, the first lot being when I was 4, I can just remember it. It's never been even mentioned with my daughter, the wriggliest child you ever met.

You all certainly have a different way of doing things on that side of the Atlantic.