Questions for non-coercive mamas - Page 3

[Wugmama]

Love this thread!

I can't say I am non-coercive, but I think I am seldom coercive. I've made a lot of changes since reading some of the stuff on this board and reading the "How to talk..." book over the last several months. I think my relationship with my dd has never been better.

I have to say it was much easier than I thought to take some of what I've learned from Pat, CC and others, as well as the book, and incorporate it. It seems once a particular situation arises a couple of times and I am able to handle it in a non-coercive manner, it just starts to come naturally.

I'm definitely not all the way there, don't know if I will ever be, but I think my dd and I have a great relationship. She is almost 4 so can communicate better than some of the younger ones being discussed here. I have a new baby coming in January and really liked the exampes given about nc parenting with a baby.

I like to use the "Give information" tactic with my dd. For example, she likes to run, sometimes she will run while wearing dress shoes and I worry that she will fall. Instead of telling her she cannot run, I tell her, "You are wearing shoes that can be slippery. If you run, you may fall and hurt yourself". Sometimes she will walk. Sometimes she will run and not fall. Sometimes she will run and fall. If she runs and falls, I am genuinely sad for her if she did get hurt, and I comfort her and tell her I'm sorry she got hurt. I don't get mad. I recognize that for her, the sheer joy of running was worth the risk of falling and getting hurt - her choice. (Usually she wears tennis shoes anyways). Just one example, but again, I am amazed at how we keep finding more non-coercive ways of dealing with more and more everyday things, and it really is great.

Also, I, and now my husband too, are just floored by how often little ones can come up with a good solution that can work for everyone if you JUST ASK THEM WHAT THEY THINK! They deserve to give their input too, and often times it is actually good input!

~Tracy

[WuWei]

Tracy, I have missed hearing your voice and questions recently. I see that you are implementing with satisfaction. I am delighted. Your post has made my day.

Pat

[allgirls]

well I thought I knew everything

j/k...I have learned so much from this thread and I am discovering that I really am striving for and want to be non-coercive but this thread is giving me some tools...words to use...keep it coming!

:

[FreeRangeMama]

You know, the thing I have learned about non-coersive parenting after nearly 5 years (and 3 kids) on the job is that it is not my place as the "adult" to force my will on the child because I am bigger and older and know more, etc. What IS my job is to see the likely problems and work to solve them BEFORE they happen. I know my children will need certain things, and I know what they like and don't like and I know what will lead to conflict. As the older, more experienced partner in this relationship I can see the possible trouble spots just based on my past experience. That means it is my responsibility to work to avoid these things before they happen.

For example, I *know* my dd will need a diaper change. I *know* she often hates to lay down and have it done. But I also *know* that if I don't do it quickly she will end up with a horrible, painful diaper rash that will cause her much discomfort (she has sensitive skin). What can *I* do to make this work for both of us? What works for us is for me to be prepared so I can be quick about it (accessable clothes, all suppies ready), a good source of distraction (toys, cream tubes, other fun stuff) ready at a moments notice, and I good, humourous attitude. She is much more willing to lay down for a diaper change if I also make it a time for feet tickling, belly blowing, peek-a-boo, and silly faces. She is happy because we are having fun together (which I enjoy too). I am happy because I get to change the diaper quickly which saves her tender bottom from sore red rashes (which makes her happy too). We both enjoy these interactions even she hates diaper changes and I end up covered in poop

I have always approached challenges with all 3 of my kids this way. Make it a fun, positive experience for both (or all) of us and we all feel positive about our interactions. I don't always succeed. 3 kids 4 and under (one with special needs) make me less than successful some days. Thankfully they know I try my best so they cut me some slack

[QDB]

Just wanted to pipe in and say thanks for this thread.

I have been in a slump with my ds lately and need some education in this area.

I think living close to my family now is somewhat of a bad influence too - very coercive and bribing etc

oy!

anyway - i have put several books on hold and will be reading this thread and forum with interest.
thanks!

[WuWei]

I happened upon this old post and thought I'd bump it.

Pat

[monkey's mom]

: I'm so glad you did, Pat!

I never saw this and there is so much wonderful info here! And Capt. Crunchy!!! Who I never "see" anymore. :

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by monkey's mom

: I'm so glad you did, Pat!

I never saw this and there is so much wonderful info here! And Capt. Crunchy!!! Who I never "see" anymore. :

Capt. Crunchy shares her wisdom at "Wise Ways of Women", prolifically.



Pat

[Ks Mama]

Originally Posted by WuWei

The easiest first step, is to say 'Yes, let's figure that out' more, instead of "no". And 'What do you need? Here is what I need. How can we both get what we need?' as a process of seeking mutually agreeable solutions.

What great, simple advice. Thanks for the reminder!!

[hippymomma69]

Well I had a big ole long reply typed and the internet demons seem to have eaten it....

I just wanted to say:


Wow you women ROCK!

I am so not at this level yet but I think I am aspiring to be. I basically have had the attitude of being a benevolent dictator (yes I sympathisize with why you don't want to do X but you have to do it anyway LOL)

I guess my biggest questions are
1 - how do you do all of this and actually manage to get out the door in the morning with more than one kid? It just seems like negotiating between all the competing interests would take forever! For example, what if DS has refused to nap all morning but now it's time for DD's swim lesson but he's refusing to get in the car? If DS is 11 months old and nonverbal I can't have a conversation with him to explain how important it is to his sister to go to her lesson....how do you handle things like that?

2 - how does this work with a SN kid? My DD is behind in expressive/receptive speech and often can't follow the logic of any sort of explanation. In fact sometimes she gets wigged out when I'm actually doing what she requested - but I'm just not doing it in the order that she wants or some detail was left undone to her satisfaction or there is some detail I overlooked but she can't express what it is that is freaking her out...gaah!

I guess I just thought all this stuff worked well with verbal kids but not with infants - so you've totally opened my mind about this...I just need to learn more!

peace,
robyn

[Ks Mama]

Originally Posted by hippymomma69

It just seems like negotiating between all the competing interests would take forever! For example, what if DS has refused to nap all morning but now it's time for DD's swim lesson but he's refusing to get in the car?

This is a great question. I think non-coersion is wonderful & I try to incorporate choice & peacefulness as much as possible into our lives, but there have been a few occasions when I have resorted to physically moving DD (gently, yet obviously using my strenth/size over hers), when after several opportunities to make a choice or come to a mutually agreeable solution, she still refuses to move...

For one example, we were exiting a restaurant. I had DS already in his carseat, leftovers & my purse in my other hand, and DD beside me. At the doorway, she decided to stop moving through. There was a man with a big box of food he had just picked up, with his son. They were waiting behind her to get out. I apprised her of the situation: people are trying to get through, and you're blocking the door. I gave her some options - do you want to hold my keys, maybe you can step to the side for a moment to let the folks through. Finally, I said "you have to step out of the doorway now to let people through - they are waiting & need to get to their car too". When she continued to stand still in the doorway (it had now been about 2 very long minutes), I told the gentleman to go ahead & walk by her, and I scooted her to the side (as I said, gently as I could with her being very resisitant, yet obviously using my bigger size). I told her before I moved her that I was going to move her, in a last hope that she'd make the choice on her own. I always do this before resorting to moving her (i.e. if she refuses for several minutes to get in/out of her carseat, and her baby brother is alredy in &/or screaming in his seat), so she KNOWS I will be physically moving her if she doesn't do so herself, but I don't LIKE phsyically moving her nor do I like giving the ultimatum, but certain situations develop where I don't know what else to do.

So, particularly when there are other people involved, or an element of danger or something else requiring a speedy conclusion, what suggestions can you give to resolve these situations with less coersion?

Thanks!

[chinaKat]

Originally Posted by Ks Mama

T For one example, we were exiting a restaurant. I had DS already in his carseat, leftovers & my purse in my other hand, and DD beside me. At the doorway, she decided to stop moving through. There was a man with a big box of food he had just picked up, with his son. They were waiting behind her to get out. I apprised her of the situation: people are trying to get through, and you're blocking the door. I gave her some options - do you want to hold my keys, maybe you can step to the side for a moment to let the folks through. Finally, I said "you have to step out of the doorway now to let people through - they are waiting & need to get to their car too". When she continued to stand still in the doorway (it had now been about 2 very long minutes), I told the gentleman to go ahead & walk by her, and I scooted her to the side (as I said, gently as I could with her being very resisitant, yet obviously using my bigger size). I told her before I moved her that I was going to move her, in a last hope that she'd make the choice on her own. I always do this before resorting to moving her (i.e. if she refuses for several minutes to get in/out of her carseat, and her baby brother is alredy in &/or screaming in his seat), so she KNOWS I will be physically moving her if she doesn't do so herself, but I don't LIKE phsyically moving her nor do I like giving the ultimatum, but certain situations develop where I don't know what else to do.

Was waiting all that time in the doorway mutually agreeable to the man holding the big box of food (and his son)?

I guess I don't understand this thread at ALL, because I don't see what would be the big deal in saying right from the get go "okay honey, let's scoot to the side so this man with the heavy box can get by" and if she doesn't respond, then gently scooting her over.

I would definitely ask her to move first, of course... but if she doesn't, then blocking people in a doorway for a long two minutes seems really inconsiderate. Where's the win here? Maybe you didn't coerce your CHILD, but you certainly forced the man and his son to do your bidding. Is it okay to never coerce at the price of everybody else in the world's time?

I don't see this as a positive message to pass along, that doing things your way trumps the needs of others.

[FreeRangeMama]

hippymomma69,

I can appreciate how it seems like this wouldn't work in a household full of kids with various needs, and it doesn't always work perfectly (nothing does when you are dealing with REAL people and REAL situations). But I have found in general when you put consensual living into practice-all the time, every day- it really just changes your interactions with your family. You respond to them differently and they respond to you differently.

For example, lets say my dh wants to watch a movie that I don't particularly enjoy, if he were to just say, "I want to watch this tonight, I have been looking forward to it and am very excited to see it. I plan to watch it with you". How do I react? Well, I might be annoyed that he just assumes I want to spend MY evening doing something he enjoys and I don't. I might feel like I should actually have a CHOICE in the matter. I might watch the movie with him, but I probably would feel a little resentful. His words and attitude make me feel like I don't really have a choice.

What if he were to say, "I want to watch this movie tonight, would you like to watch it with me?" I might say, "I don't really like that kind of movie, is there something else we could watch?". Maybe he would say, "Well, I have really been looking forward to THIS one...". I would see that it meant a lot to him and we would probably get snacks and it would be an enjoyable time.

Either way we would watch the movie. He would get what he wants. In one scenario I feel like I am COMPROMISING to make him happy, in the other I choose to watch it and enjoy the time with my partner regardless of the movie. Maybe not the clearest example, but the difference in the attitude he brings makes all the difference.

Can't work with kids? Why not? If you work as a partnership or a team you bring a different attitude to the situation. It makes you more willing (and creative) when finding solutions and it makes them more willing to work with you. It sets up a positive pattern instead of an expectation of power struggles. Often when I child feels coersed into something they will be more resistant to "bend" to another person's needs the next time. This sets up an expectation of power struggles.

And in case you think I am just a crazy idealist I will tell you, I have 3 kids age 6, 3, and 2 (with baby #4 about to appear). My eldest is ASD, my middle is a super high energy, can't sit still, bundle of energy, and my youngest has a severe communication delay. It doesn't always go smoothly (we are all human after all), but it does go well most of the time. They are willing to cooperate with me and I am willing to cooperate with them. Most of the time we are willing to work so that everyone's needs are known and everyone's needs get met.

The biggest misconception is that we spend all day negotiating things. That doesn't happen. Occasionally someone doesn't want to go somewhere (usually my oldest) that we need to go, but I may gently suggest he bring a book so that he isn't bored. If he feels his needs are getting met he will happily pick out a book (or other activity) and come along. The key is that it isn't a power struggle (we don't have many of those) so there is no 'I win you lose' mentality. Just a 'how can we all enjoy this' mindset.

Sorry for the novel

[hippymomma69]

thanks for your response! I guess I still have a long way to go to get into the right mindset for this....I'll keep reading and rethinking what I'm doing to see if I can get closer to this way of being with the family....

it's good to hear that someone with multiple kids and kids with SN can do well with this approach!

peace,
robyn

[UUMom]

I got to age 17 with my oldest before I imposed a 'punishment' . It had to do with the car, and the consequence was a whopper. He had to take the bus to school for 6 weeks. My 15 and 8 yr olds are a breeze and have never had 'consequences'. They are naturally easy-going as is their older brother. i do have a 13 yr old who is a greater challenge, and I once gave him a time out in his room when he was 7. He's lucky I didn't boot him out the door. He still rememberrs that.

I would call myself 'less coercive'. I think it's easy to beleive that people who are CL or TCS always do the right thing, but it's impossible to not make a mistake here and there. Even if we don't discuss our mistakes in the thread, mistakes happen.

I don't call myself TCS or CL simply because I will not wait an hour until an 18 mos old is ready to get strapped in the carseat. I offer the lolli or the toy and make it as pleasant as possible for the child and then I'm done.

[monkey's mom]

Originally Posted by hippymomma69

I guess my biggest questions are
1 - how do you do all of this and actually manage to get out the door in the morning with more than one kid? It just seems like negotiating between all the competing interests would take forever! For example, what if DS has refused to nap all morning but now it's time for DD's swim lesson but he's refusing to get in the car? If DS is 11 months old and nonverbal I can't have a conversation with him to explain how important it is to his sister to go to her lesson....how do you handle things like that?

I do tend to have that conversation--even though it's pretty one-sided. We just try to find a way that makes going to the swim lesson (or wherever) more enjoyable. Like bringing along a fun toy, picking the movie for the car ride, being able to play in the pool also, or some other thing that makes the outing agreeable.

And sometimes it is, "Hey, your brother went along yesterday with you to your thing, so let's give him the same curtesy today, huh?"

It's pretty rare that we run into some big conflicting needs "stand-off." Just b/c as they get older they start to understand that we are all on the same team and there is always give and take by everyone.

Originally Posted by hippymomma69

2 - how does this work with a SN kid? My DD is behind in expressive/receptive speech and often can't follow the logic of any sort of explanation. In fact sometimes she gets wigged out when I'm actually doing what she requested - but I'm just not doing it in the order that she wants or some detail was left undone to her satisfaction or there is some detail I overlooked but she can't express what it is that is freaking her out...gaah!

With non-verbal kids I just tend to ask "yes" and "no" questions a lot. "Is this OK?" "Is this what you want?" "YOU want to do it?" "Can I help?" And move from there.

Originally Posted by Ks Mama

For one example, we were exiting a restaurant. I had DS already in his carseat, leftovers & my purse in my other hand, and DD beside me. At the doorway, she decided to stop moving through. There was a man with a big box of food he had just picked up, with his son. They were waiting behind her to get out. I apprised her of the situation: people are trying to get through, and you're blocking the door. I gave her some options - do you want to hold my keys, maybe you can step to the side for a moment to let the folks through. Finally, I said "you have to step out of the doorway now to let people through - they are waiting & need to get to their car too". When she continued to stand still in the doorway (it had now been about 2 very long minutes), I told the gentleman to go ahead & walk by her, and I scooted her to the side (as I said, gently as I could with her being very resisitant, yet obviously using my bigger size).

I would do what you did also, but I would not hold someone else up for 2 minutes. I would move the child, model excusing oneself to another person, and then explain about getting out of people's way and probably call up a situation where someone was blocking him at the playground or something and talk about how it made him feel and that that's how other people feel when we're blocking them--even if we don't MEAN to make them feel that way.

I pretty much assume that they don't want to do the impolite social thing and just treat it as such. Like, how I would, "Psst...that's the SALAD fork," to a friend or my husband in a formal dining situation where they grabbed the wrong one. It's all about helping them navigate a new situation or social mores that are new to them. And I think b/c the VAST majority of the time they are given autonomy and respect for their body and decisions--and they truly believe that we are committed to working as a team--the times where these situations arise are just a non-issue. They know that I'm looking out for their interests so that other people don't perceive them as rude or they're not doing something socially "wrong."

Originally Posted by FreeRangeMama

The key is that it isn't a power struggle (we don't have many of those) so there is no 'I win you lose' mentality. Just a 'how can we all enjoy this' mindset.

Yes! This is key!

[Mom2Joseph]

I was so on this path until my DD came along. DS has been violent with her and I have found no other option than to physically remove him because she has a right to not be violated every time he feels like it. How do you handle that? I really can see most other things being handled, giving choices, redirection, etc....but how do you handle violence?

I'm reading more to figure out how to do this with two kids because I can't quite seem to catch up.

Is The Continum Concept and UP the books to read for this type of parenting?

[Ks Mama]

Originally Posted by chinaKat

Was waiting all that time in the doorway mutually agreeable to the man holding the big box of food (and his son)?

I guess I don't understand this thread at ALL, because I don't see what would be the big deal in saying right from the get go "okay honey, let's scoot to the side so this man with the heavy box can get by" and if she doesn't respond, then gently scooting her over.

I would definitely ask her to move first, of course... but if she doesn't, then blocking people in a doorway for a long two minutes seems really inconsiderate. Where's the win here? Maybe you didn't coerce your CHILD, but you certainly forced the man and his son to do your bidding. Is it okay to never coerce at the price of everybody else in the world's time?

I don't see this as a positive message to pass along, that doing things your way trumps the needs of others.

I think maybe you didn't understand my post. What you describe is just what I DID. I asked her to move, described the situation, and when I realized that she wasn't going to move, I moved her. The man really wasn't irritated, yes obviously he would like to get by the 2 year old in the doorway at some point, but I do have an awareness of when something becomes socially awkward, and also an awareness of when my daughter is deciding not to do something, which would mean I would have to put my son & bags down, and physically move my daughter.

I was posting a question on how better to have handled the situation so that I wouldn't have HAD to move her. I was hoping that a mother who practiced non-coercive parenting could share how she would have dealt with the situation differently.

Edited to add: I guess the key sticking point here is the 2 minute wait. Perhaps I exaggerated the wait time as my son was fussing, I was anxious about him being in his carseat already, and didn't want to get into a power struggle with my daughter. It may have only been a minute. The point being that when I stepped in to move her, it had just gotten to the point of feeling awkward, yet the man was still smiling. And the thing is too, he could have stepped by her at any point in time - the doorway was wide enough - he likely just felt rude about having to walk by her, having a child himself, he obviously understood what was going on - I told him to go ahead around her. I just really didn't want to have to physically move her. I don't like doing it, and it never turns out well - because she's obviously required to acquiese to whatever it is I'm asking - whether it is the right thing or not - and it takes power away from her. I don't like power being taken from me, so I don't like doing it to her.

Just doing something because you CAN doesn't make it the right thing to do or the right way to do it.

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by Ks Mama

I was posting a question on how better to have handled the situation so that I wouldn't have HAD to move her. I was hoping that a mother who practiced non-coercive parenting could share how she would have dealt with the situation differently.

I would move TOWARD something of mutual agreement: perhaps suggest singing a song while hopping toward the car, going home to see Daddy, moving toward a snack or lunch if hungry, suggest that she spin three times and then piggyback ride toward the car, etc.

Pat

[chinaKat]

Originally Posted by Ks Mama

I think maybe you didn't understand my post. What you describe is just what I DID. I asked her to move, described the situation, and when I realized that she wasn't going to move, I moved her. The man really wasn't irritated, yes obviously he would like to get by the 2 year old in the doorway at some point, but I do have an awareness of when something becomes socially awkward, and also an awareness of when my daughter is deciding not to do something, which would mean I would have to put my son & bags down, and physically move my daughter.

I was posting a question on how better to have handled the situation so that I wouldn't have HAD to move her. I was hoping that a mother who practiced non-coercive parenting could share how she would have dealt with the situation differently.

What I understood from your post was that you were perfectly okay with letting other people wait a ridiculously long time to get through a doorway because you weren't comfortable getting your daughter out of their way in a timely manner.

You reinforced my impression by saying above that the man wasn't annoyed. How do you know that? He could merely have been being polite. People have places to go and things to do, and it's just not right to inconvenience them like that. Especially when they are carrying things and managing children of their own.

I'm sure that my post will garner plenty of responses indicating that the world needs to sit back and wonder at the whimsy of a child in a doorway, instead of hustling and bustling to and fro. But frankly, that's not on most folks' agenda, and it shouldn't have to be. Holding up for twenty seconds while a woman gives her daughter a chance to move on her own? Sure. But sitting there for "two long minutes" isn't reasonable.

I just don't see the value in so-called non-coercive parenting if it comes at the expense of everybody else's needs.