#2 Biblical Marriage/Wife Submission Thread - Page 6

[lilyka]

I have been thinking about the big and little thing discussion, why the little things seem harder. SOmething that came up here not so long ago is that dh wanted dd to use #2 pencils onher school work instead of the colored ones. WHAT DOES HE CARE!!! He did have a god point, but at the same time what did i care? never the less, I tried to get around it every which way (he only meant for handwriting. they are still fine for math). I should point out that my dd, while prefering the colors, didn't really care either way, and if daddy had an opinion then so be it. The whole thing was so silly.

But i think the whole "what does he care" was what made it so hard. you start thinking "what difference does this make" It is easy to se what difference the big things make but the little things just seem controling. and maybe they are. maybe they have a perfectly valid reason. Do you think it is OK to question the reasons? Is there a good way to ask if there is a reason without needing a reason to submit? Did that make an sense at all is constantly needing a reason a sign of rebelion in your own heart? I am the forever why? girl. I don't need to agree with his reasons but for some reason I think he certainly needs them and owes me an explination wether I care if I agree with it or not. Kinda like "I have a strong opinion on this and if I have to suck it up you at least better feel as strongly as I do". That just feels like the wrong spirit in me. I know the Bible doesn't say anything about that in relation to being submissive but is that attitude something I am not putting my finger on that the Bible does address (hello run on sentence)? I know having children has made me much more aware of what my bad attitudes look like and how most outright easy to see sin stems from other more sinister atitude problems. I am sure this falls into that catagory.

aahhh, how I wish the refining precess was easier. My friend was a potter and she tok us on a journey with some clay from being dug from the earth to the final vessle it was to be. ootery is a brutal business what with the wedging and striking and ripping and squishing, throwing and then just waiting around, then firing. in the firiring flaws appear, things break, things turn out odd colors in odd places (glazes appear differently then when youput them on) so then she mashes a peice, takes it back to clay and starts all over. ouch. Sometimes Gods refining process grows painful. I have heard people cry out to God "let me be clay in your hands. make me into something beautiful" and I want to tackle them and cover thier mouths and just reassure them "no you don't "

hehehe all that to say I think the little things are part of refining our hearts and attitudes. not just in our marriage but preparing us to be the bride of Christ.

[afishwithabike]

OOOH I have heard that prayer too!

I have heard people cry out to God "let me be clay in your hands. make me into something beautiful" and I want to tackle them and cover thier mouths and just reassure them "no you don't "

I have felt that way myself, but then I remember all the stuff I had to go through to make me a better woman for the Lord. Then I agree with their prayer and PRAY PRAY PRAY, For them. If I had not sinned and felt the consequesces of some of my actions I wouldn't be able to understand my children nearly as well. God is good to us, even when we are going through the tough stuff. I am often reminded of the scriptures in the OT regarding Moses crossing the red sea and Joshua crossing the Jordan. Moses was allowed by God to raise his staff and then the waters parted. God had to work a bunch of stuff out of the Israelites to get them into the promise land. When it was Joshua's turn he had to "get into" the River Jordan to allow God's miracle to be performed. Yeah...sometimes we have to get down and dirty to get the things we need from God. Here I go again

[Lisa P]

Everytime I read a post from you lilyka, I think I'm reading my own journal... he he

Do you think it is OK to question the reasons? Is there a good way to ask if there is a reason without needing a reason to submit? Did that make an sense at all is constantly needing a reason a sign of rebelion in your own heart? I am the forever why? girl. I don't need to agree with his reasons but for some reason I think he certainly needs them and owes me an explination wether I care if I agree with it or not. Kinda like "I have a strong opinion on this and if I have to suck it up you at least better feel as strongly as I do".

I too am the proverbial "Why?" girl. My dh hates it. He frequently gets annoyed with me because I always want to know the why of things. I think it makes him feel less respected when I contantly question. Like I need him to proove his reasoning in order to comply. I don't, of course, but asking why ahead of the "doing" seems to be what bugs him. I am trying to be better about the why thing. I have resolved to try to only ask why, if I feel so moved, after the fact. That way he won't feel like I'm challenging him/his decisions.
I do think constant questioning is a sign of rebellion. I know I rebel in all sorts of ways and this is just one of them. It is so hard to not see the little things as controlling - even though I know they're not. It's just me feeling constrained by not wanting to fully submit and defer to him.

I also get very frustrated by how he chooses to question me. Am I getting my ego all bent out of shape here, or what? I may be off base, I'm not sure...I certainly know he's not perfect. But, for instance, this morning (we EC, BTW) I had just pottied dd and put her dipe back on. Then dh came into the room and moments later he started undoing dd's dipe to potty her. He had the cover undone when I said "I just pottied her a few minutes ago." Then he asked me "Why'd you wait until I had her cover off to tell me?" to which I replied "I though maybe you knew something I didn't" "Then why did you decided to tell me?" he said "I just thought you'd like to know." He got annoyed at the way I answered him because he said it was a lawyer's answer (I'm in the legal profession). I said "would you rather I said 'to be helpful'?" and he said no b/c it would have been no better... he was looking for an "I reconsidered" or something along those lines. It just drives me crazy and here's why....
When he asks me a question along these lines I hear it as adversarial and critical...why else would he ask? And if its not, then why wouldn't he ask in a non-adversarial way? The question "Why did you wait until I got her cover off.." directly implies the accusatory "You waited until I got her cover off, why?" Am I right? (I certainly didn't deliberatly wait until he took off dd's cover to say something!)
Dh frequently asks questions to which there is no dierct answer without unpacking the question to remove the accusation (that he sees as nonexistant). I find it very trying to answer him, let alone be graceful and non adversarial about it. Insight anyone?

[georgia]

Originally Posted by boobybunny

If my questions challenge your views or make you think at all, you will ask me to leave? I do not feel welcomed, I do feel like this is much of Christian community because of the lack of welcomed and sharing.

boobybunny, If you are interested in posting in an effort to "challenge your views," a post of this nature would be appropriately addressed in the Religious Studies Subforum. MDC is a community which welcomes members of any/all/no faith This particular discussion is being held in the Spirituality Forum. Guidelines here:

Spirituality Forum Guidelines

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While we will not restrict discussions to persons of the faith being discussed we will be active in discouraging an individual from posting for the purpose of disagreement, with no interest in practicing the faith or belief in discussion, or to prove a faith or a belief to be wrong, misguided, or not based on fact. Prosletyzing, to convert to a faith or from one, will not be permitted. Controversial subjects of discussion related to spiritual and religious beliefs and origins can be found elsewhere on the internet and we invite you to seek out other sites for that purpose.

vs.

The Religious Studies Guidelines:

The Religious Studies forum is for the academic discussion of religious and spiritual matters. This is where the tough questions may be asked. Please do not take it personally when someone questions your own particular faith or belief system or posts an interpretation or opinion that does not support your belief. Questions and their discussion are not to be construed as being judgemental, but should rather be seen as an honest plea for a deeper understanding.

Hope that clears up any misunderstandings! Please PM me or laralou if there are any additional questions.

Thanks!

[SheBear]

Originally Posted by DaryLLL

Is part of being a submissive wife training your children to submit to the absolute authority of their father, as SheBear said?

IMO, it is very important that the parents together raise the children to respect and submit to the authority of both parents, understanding fully that the father is the head of the family, and has the undisputed leadership role. I personally would never say that the father is the "absolute" anything, because only God is absolute (yes, I see where I twisted my words around in my previous post, and I edited it to make it say what I meant). And obviously, there are circumstances where the father abdicates his role, whether it be through outright abuse, neglect, or disinterest, etc. But those cases are not the norm. Just as there are cases when a wife should not submit to her husband (if he is abusive in some way). Which we've already established, several times, that bad things do happen to good people, and it's a shame that it does, and it should not be tolerated. But again, those cases are not the norm.

Do you train the girls to be more submissive and the boys to be leaders? Do you train your girls to submit to their brothers as practice for wifedom?

Nowhere in Scripture do I see anything that says that girls should submit to boys, or women should submit to men. I see that wives should submit to their own husbands. Therefore, IMO, it is clear that the concept of wifely submission is only relevant within the bonds of marriage. I will not )"train" my daughters to submit to their brothers, simply because that would, IMO, be an improper application of the scripture. I will strive to teach all my children to respect and love each other, to protect and care for each other, to stand together. I will teach my daughters to be feminine, and I will encourage them to develop characteristics and values that reflect Godly womanhood. I will (and my husband will) likewise teach our sons to develop moral characters that reflect Godly masculinity. I hope that I am able to teach all of my children to have both a submissive spirit (as Lilyka said, to show reverence for Christ, and to promote peace when necessary) and a willingness to lead others in a Godly manner. I think both traits are valuable ones and have nothing to do with gender roles.

As far as how to teach daughters about submission within marriage, I think that comes from watching the example set by the parents. Watching the mother model a submissive spirit before her husband, caring for the family and putting his/their needs ahead of her own whenever possible....and doing so with love and joy. Watching the father accept the authority and leadership of the family as his God-given obligation, and handle it with grace and wisdom. I think it is best learned by example, which is why I am sincerely striving to be a better example (right now I can only pray that my children will remember my good moments more than my bad, LOL!).

But I don't think that marriage, or "wifedom" is something at which you can "practice". You can practice cooking, or playing an instrument, or riding a bike. IMO, the idea of practicing at marriage could lead to unhappy results....perhaps that mindset explains to some degree the divorce rate?

[lilyka]

Originally Posted by Lisa P

"Why did you wait until I got her cover off.." directly implies the accusatory "You waited until I got her cover off, why?" Am I right?

yes

Originally Posted by Lisa P

I certainly didn't deliberatly wait until he took off dd's cover to say something!

then why didn't you say this. Instead you defended why you waited. either you waited or you didn't. When I am accused I just defend my innocence (if it is there otherwise I jsut say sorry and drop it and hopes that we don't have to explore it further ) or confess. Or claim gnorance . .. "I wasn't sure what you were doing there . . . "

but I see what you are saying. when we feel accused it is hard to drop it. we have a tendency to seek to strike back and defend our selves. even if there is no reason to.

[afishwithabike]

when we feel accused it is hard to drop it. we have a tendency to seek to strike back and defend our selves. even if there is no reason to.

DH and I have issues with this from time to time. He will make a comment that I feel is an attack. I immediately react like a cat in a corner and come out with both claws drawn. Then I remember that he has asked me to be patient with him because he is good at sticking his foot into his mouth and swallowing it up to his knee. I have to operate with parience where he is concerned and he has done better at thinking before he talks. I think we all need to communicate in these instances. Sometimes we hit each others nerves unintentionally. If we talk about where we struggle with our spouses it can enhance the manner in which you approach each other. I am not saying you need to tread lightly, but tread with purpose. If you can communicate your issues with each other you can walk together to the goal of a long and happy marriage.

[lilyka]

why do you think we take it as accusation. (and not just from our husbands but i strugle with this with lots of people). Ina way that is judging others, judging thier intentions. Why do we feel attacked? Is it because deep down we feel like weactually should have done it differently?

[janerose]

mamajama -- If you're still reading this thread just wanted to say sorry that my book suggestion offened you. I've recommended that book to several people since I found the parts I read so helpful. I didn't notice that you were specifically wanting to look at submission from a biblical perspective. Anyway, no disrespect was meant. Just wanted to share a resource that was helpful when *I* was first exploring the concept of wife submission.


Anyway, the small things are definitly hard to submit too, but what do you do when your spouse totally decides to change directions with his life? That is the situation I'm suddenly in. We recently moved back to my hometown so DH could work part-time & return to finish school. The idea was he'd finish school, get a good job, I'd SAHM, we'd put an addition on our new house,

Well, he's now decided that he wants to do grad school, which means moving away again in about another year and a half. I'm trying to have a good attitude about this, but it's really hard. He's proposing moving away from our families, to a place where I'll know no one, and he'll be crazy busy with working & grad school so I won't have ANY help. See a pattern here right? Me, me, me. *sigh* I KNOW he deserves to go to grad school (which isn't an option where we live now...there are just no grad schools here). He's very smart & I hate to inhibit his gifts. At the same time it feels like there's no balance in the situation you know. It's ALL about him, his school, his eventual job, his goals, his self-worth....

I did talk with him a couple weeks ago about my concerns. Specifically my concern that the new plans are all about him, but what about us? Certainly he has an obligation to his education, goals, talents, etc. But he's the head of this family & he has an obligation to us as well. Basically I asked him to just keep that in mind while he was making decisions about what to do.

So, I voiced my opinion and unless he asks for it again I'm trying to just keep my peace & pray that God guide him in the direction that is truly best for our family. I'm totally open to the possibility that his doing grad school & us moving again is what will be best for us in the future. I'm just not sold on the idea yet, yah know?

Yesterday he was talking about applying for a summer research program. They'd pay him, his housing, meals, travel. But we wouldn't be able to go with him. He'd be gone 8-10 weeks, so basically all summer. That really threw me for a loop. Totally NOT how we'd been planning to spend the upcoming summer.

Holly

[SheBear]

Originally Posted by afishwithabike

I am not saying you need to tread lightly, but tread with purpose.

I really like that....tread purposefully, not lightly. I've been reminding myself to "tread lightly" on what I *know* are dh's hot button issues, but saying it that way sorta leave a bad taste in my mouth, like I'm humouring him or something. Saying it the way you did is much better, because it acknowledges that although we each have our issues, we can still discuss the hard things as long as we strive to do so in a respectful and loving way, with a purpose in mind, not just lashing out. So, I guess it's sorta like saying "choose your battles".

Anyway, I think that part of why we (or at least me) can be so easily offended by our husbands is because in the marriage relationship, we pretty much HAVE to be vulnerable, unguarded, and open to our spouses. At least, I don't think I would want a marriage where I couldn't or didn't let my guard down and let my husband see the "real" me.....

But that vulnerability I think is a double-sided blessing....I know exactly how to push all his buttons, and he knows all mine! He can hurt me worse (and more easily) than any person on earth, and I'm sure he'd say the same about me. And since we are both still sinful and selfish and just plain mean at times, we occasionally lash out. A casual friend might say something to me that I don't give much thought, or I just brush it off, but let dh say the very same thing, and I start searching for a hidden meaning behind his words. What's worse, I'm convinced that there is one, and I refuse to believe him if he tells me I'm overreacting!

IMO, it all stems from self-centeredness.....thinking a little too much of myself, demanding a little more than I'm willing to give, holding on to old injuries, old grudges. And all of that is selfishness. It is saying that I (my feelings, my emotions, my thoughts and opinions, etc) am more important than those around me. That I should be treated better, that I deserve better, that I am worth more.

Which is easy to believe, since all the advertisement campaigns out there right now seem to be telling us exactly that--you deserve it, you're worth it, have it your way right away! Really? I "deserve" high-speed internet? Why? What have I done to deserve it? What makes me more deserving of it than someone who doesn't even have a computer?

"I'm worth it" in reference to a $5 beauty product? Really? Is beauty the standard by which my worth is measured? And isn't that a bit insulting, to imply that my worth is on par with discount cosmetics?

Sigh....it all bugs me so much. How can I hope to raise my kids to have have realistic, healthy, Godly self-images amongst all this drivel?

okay, how's all that for a tangent? Sorry for rambling!

[lilyka]

Originally Posted by SheBear

But that vulnerability I think is a double-sided blessing....I know exactly how to push all his buttons, and he knows all mine! He can hurt me worse (and more easily) than any person on earth, and I'm sure he'd say the same about me. And since we are both still sinful and selfish and just plain mean at times, we occasionally lash out. A casual friend might say something to me that I don't give much thought, or I just brush it off, but let dh say the very same thing, and I start searching for a hidden meaning behind his words. What's worse, I'm convinced that there is one, and I refuse to believe him if he tells me I'm overreacting!

you really hit the nail on the head with that. That is the source of all of our problems in our marriage. And to be comepletly honest I think it has been worse for us than many couple because deep down idon't know that i ever believed I was safe. which has really sabotaged us. And I think even when people put up a facade most don't pull it off sucessfully. regardless of how much armour we put on and how gaurded we are we can't help but be vunreable in a marriage. And we either react when our partners use it against us or assume that they are using it against us and foil ourselves. does that make any sense. The commitee in my head say "yes yes" but they are idiots . . . .

[lilyka]

jenerose - have you ever ridden a tandem bike (two seater)? My dhand I do. and he is, IMHO, a lunatic on a bike. when we are each riding our own bike I have the option of following him, not following him, following at a slower place, meeting up with him or turning around and going home to wiope the blood and mmmuid off my legs . . .. On a tandem the only thing I can do is hold on and pray and bend and lean as he does and do my best to keep my feet on the pedals (please bare with this silly anology). I can't even see where we are going. but he can. and he is the one experianced and he is stearing, he has the brakes and more pedal power. however i have the power to crash us both horrifically and he would never see it coming. and all I would have to do is lean slightly in a different direction.

I think this is the same in marriage. You have the option of going another direction but is it worth risking a crash. and if not is it going to change anything except make the ride uncomfortable fo a minute? your best bet, IMO is to hold on for the ride. it is only a year or two. it will mean increase income for your family. ask him why he feels the need to do this. and then just listen. My guess is in his plan this helps the family XYZ way. (perhaps higher income, more job security and options as this is important to men, especially men who are supporting thier family alone, a family in want makes men feel like a failure). try to embrace his plan for making your family stronger and better. Also by just let him work this out if he doesn't have good reasons for continuing his education it will be easier hearing it from himself than from you.

the only thing I would take issue with is the 8-10 weeks away. We have a family rule that dh doesn't go away alone for any length of time (anything more than a week). We either go with him (as inconvient as it may be we make the best of it) or he doesn't go. that is just too much devision outside of some sort of emergancy. This I would fight for. but be in prayer first and ask God to handle it first or to choose your words for you. try not to focus on how inconvient it is for you (because that is a selfish reason in the end - though justifiable in my opinion) but rather how important it is to maintain family unity and have him leading the family. How his role is important in the family and he needs to be there. 10 weeks, that is so long. yeah, I would lose it if dh even suggested doing that without us. easy for me to say stay calm. iff I were actually in your shoes. i don't see that the grad school thing would be a problem. my dh family were alwaysgoing away to school for a year, that is how we met, and they just made the best of it. got involved quickly in a good church and threw themselves into peoples social circles.

[laralou]

That is a great analogy.

[SheBear]

I agree--awesome analogy! I've always thought a tandem bike would be fun.....now you've got me thinking I may be too much of a control freak to do it, LOL!

(WAAAAY off topic, but is anyone else now thinking of the Simpson's episode where Bart and Marge are riding the tandem bike and doing all the other Mother and Son things? heehee....that was a great episode! )

[afishwithabike]

I think that part of why we (or at least me) can be so easily offended by our husbands is because in the marriage relationship, we pretty much HAVE to be vulnerable, unguarded, and open to our spouses.

Sometimes my problem literally lies in the fact that I feel guilty for doing/saying whatever the offensive thing is. Sometimes his comments are innocent and merely a statement of observation and I take it as an insult as though I have done something wrong. As a woman I have issues with reading into things that aren't there. Nine times out of ten with most men they say what they mean and there is no implication to an underlying message in their statements. Men are very literal and women are more figurative. It's feeling vs logic. I have learned this and seen it work in many instances of my life. I know this is going back a few posts so if I jumped topic I'm sorry.

PS I do like the tandem bicycle analogy. Good Job

[AngelBee]

Wanted to wish you all a HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!

[lilyka]

Originally Posted by SheBear

I agree--awesome analogy! I've always thought a tandem bike would be fun.....now you've got me thinking I may be too much of a control freak to do it, LOL!

It is very good therapy for your inner control freak And it is very fun. Check with yourlocal bike sho and see if they rent them. we do and I think it is only like $20 which includes everything you need. Cheap date.

[lilyka]

Originally Posted by afishwithabike

Sometimes his comments are innocent and merely a statement of observation and I take it as an insult as though I have done something wrong. As a woman I have issues with reading into things that aren't there. Nine times out of ten with most men they say what they mean and there is no implication to an underlying message in their statements. Men are very literal and women are more figurative.

pop quiz: What is the absolute worst thing I can say to my dh?

answer: What do you mean by that?

he insists that he says what he means and never has underlying meaning and it drives him absolutely crazy that I am always trying to read something deeper in his statements. he looks at me like i have grown a third head. he really doesn't get it. after 11 years I am just startingt to get this. now he thinks that I must mean somethign else everytime I say somehting since I always assume he is. we really need a smilie that is digging . . .

[AngelBee]

I really love you all!

I have not been posting as much, but I am reading. Being in this tribe makes me feel hope in the world, I feel grounded, and loving.

I can not believe how much hatred there is....



Feeling kinda down....thank you for all being so inspiring. :

[beccaboomom]

I can not believe how much hatred there is....