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#2 Biblical Marriage/Wife Submission Thread - Page 2

post #21 of 587
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamajama
That people are just human, and inherently flawed. No person can make things "whole" for you.
If I submitted to sex with him during that time, it would have been against my will.

ITA with the first sentence, people are human and humans make mistakes, it is very important to rely fully on God and not fully on Humans. The second question I disagree, had you submitted you may not have wanted to but it would have been your will to do it. Against your will would be if you absolutely said no and he did anyway. But giving in whether you wanted to or not, whether you liked it or not is still you agreeing to do it, therefore it is not against your will.
post #22 of 587
Now, what if it's the husband who is disinterested in sex? Is the wife then to obligated honor his God-given low sexual drive and continue a celibate marriage?
post #23 of 587
Hey, mj, empty your box!

Sorry to interrupt, ladies!
post #24 of 587
Quote:
Originally Posted by DebraBaker
Perhaps if we told our sons to be pleasant and taught our daughters to be strong there would be more balance in their future relationships.

DB
Oh Deb...
I you...

I thought the whole idea of biblical submission in regard to the wife was when your husband was acting Christlike... Loving the wife like Christ loves the church. So the question I have is... How long do you give it for your husband to be Christ-like? And ARE you supposed to be a submissive wife in the biblical sense if your husband isn't owning his part of the equation?

Thanks for any light you can shed on this for me.

Warm Squishy Feelings..
Dyan
post #25 of 587
Quote:
Originally Posted by candiland
Hey, mj, empty your box!

Sorry to interrupt, ladies!
I made some room.
post #26 of 587
Quote:
Originally Posted by eightyferrettoes
Now, what if it's the husband who is disinterested in sex? Is the wife then to obligated honor his God-given low sexual drive and continue a celibate marriage?
That's a great question eightyferrettoes.
post #27 of 587
Quote:
Originally Posted by eightyferrettoes
Now, what if it's the husband who is disinterested in sex? Is the wife then to obligated honor his God-given low sexual drive and continue a celibate marriage?
Well, she can't force him to have sex. And she can't have sex with anyone else, so I would have to say yes. When this happened to us, I kept trying, and I waited it out and prayed, and made myself attractive to him, and eventually we talked it out and worked things out. Now we are back onthe same page.
post #28 of 587
I think the idea here is.......

if you fully support someone in pure love, visualizing them as perfect, capable individuals, they will, over time, grow toward that vision. But if you wobble back and forth with fear and indecisiveness - or a "lack of faith", if you will - it will keep that person in their present state of unbalance and feed into the cycles you want them so desperately to break out of.

I try to live my life feeling this way toward everyone, tho, not just my dh. However, I fail much of the time. But I'm getting better!
post #29 of 587
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pynki
So the question I have is... How long do you give it for your husband to be Christ-like? And ARE you supposed to be a submissive wife in the biblical sense if your husband isn't owning his part of the equation?
You give it as long as it takes. Biblical submission is not about what the other person is doing, right or wrong their decisions should not affect yours. Otherwise you heart is not in the right place. Submission is about doing what God has commanded of us regardless of anyone else.
post #30 of 587
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2tired2clean
Well, she can't force him to have sex. And she can't have sex with anyone else, so I would have to say yes. When this happened to us, I kept trying, and I waited it out and prayed, and made myself attractive to him, and eventually we talked it out and worked things out. Now we are back onthe same page.
Hmmm. Interesting that the onus is on the woman either way.

Is there some reason that the husband does not have an obligation to provide sex for his wife if he isn't "in the mood?" or finds her unattractive?

Clearly, the wife has such an obligation to ensure that the marriage does not become celibate. "There is no room for celibacy in marriage" should perhaps have the subtext: "Unless the husband decides it should be that way."

Interesting thoughts. Thanks!
post #31 of 587
Quote:
I am a submissive wife, and boy howdy EVERYBODY knows how I feel about things! And for the most part, my DH wants my opinions and usually follows them. On the occasion he has other ideas, I will put mine aside (as long as it doesn't go against something God has directed me to do) Generally it's just a matter of time before DH ends up doing things my way anyway and I've avoided all the strife.
Funny story about how God used a rusty old car to test me on this right before DH and I got married.
We were talking engagement and on our way up to my parents house we came across this rusty old convertible. DH is a car guy so we stopped to look at it. He then began trying to work a scheme in order to buy it. Here's where I began getting frustrated. I didn't have a ring yet and we already had a wedding date set! He wants to BUY A CAR!!!! I finally just told him I didn't think it was a good idea right now. Then I prayed prayed prayed. "Lord I have shared my opinion with him. Please help him to see what you want. If he takes my advice Great!! If not please help me to be at peace anyhow" He didn't buy the car and bought my ring a week later. Here's the great part. I picked out the cheapest ring and asked him to get it for me. When he proposed I got the shock of my life. He had bought me the ring I was secretly desiring. I feel it was god's way of telling me I did the right thing. I hope this little story helps. I know I think of it often when we are faced with things. I just love how God seems to bless me when I do his will.
post #32 of 587
Forgive me here....But I am getting a little wearied by all of the "What ifs". Did God allow a what if clause in the scriptures? Did I miss the what if clause? We do what we are called/commanded to do according to the scriptures. Take your selfish desires out of it. I personally wouldn't want the pressure my husband has to be the spiritual head. If I sin at his hand he will be judged for it. If the spiritual fruit in our family is rotten he is the one who will be judged for it. If I don't remain faithful in praying for him to make Godly decisions I feel guilty. If I don't lift him up daily I feel awful. We get so wrapped up in our own pride and all of the what ifs that we don't think about how much pressure they have.
post #33 of 587
All I can do is control my actions in my marriage. My dh does have obligations but my ability to meet my obligations and live according to the word does not hinge on him meeting his. husbands absolutely have an obligation to fulfil thier wives in every way but regardless of if they live up to that has nothing to do with me. I can only serve God for me. i am not responsible for my making my dh do anything of for condemning or punishing him when he doesn't. God will deal with each of us according to how we respond to his leading.
post #34 of 587
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2tired2clean
You give it as long as it takes. Biblical submission is not about what the other person is doing, right or wrong their decisions should not affect yours. Otherwise you heart is not in the right place. Submission is about doing what God has commanded of us regardless of anyone else.
So then, really it's submission to god and not the husband. Right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2tired2clean
But giving in whether you wanted to or not, whether you liked it or not is still you agreeing to do it, therefore it is not against your will.
This sentence makes no sense to me. If you agree to something you don't want to do, then that, by definition, is doing it against your will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lilyka
It doesn't always matter what you feel like doing. Sometimes I give sex to my husband as a way of blessing him. I am not particularly in the mood. But I know he is. It realy isn't that much effort to say "ok I can be into this for an hour"
But isn't the above dishonest? Wouldn't that then be breaking one of the commandments?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lilyka
All I can do is control my actions in my marriage. My dh does have obligations but my ability to meet my obligations and live according to the word does not hinge on him meeting his. husbands absolutely have an obligation to fulfil thier wives in every way but regardless of if they live up to that has nothing to do with me. I can only serve God for me. i am not responsible for my making my dh do anything of for condemning or punishing him when he doesn't. God will deal with each of us according to how we respond to his leading.
This sounds selfish, to me. So the ultimate goal here is to get oneself to heaven then?


I realize that my post may come off as baiting or something to some. I really hope not though. I hope this space is safe enough to ask questions and I do so with some trepidation. I appreciate your taking the time to answer some of my questions thusfar.
post #35 of 587
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamajama
But isn't the above dishonest? Wouldn't that then be breaking one of the commandments?
No. I am not lying. i am not faking or being dishonest. I am choosing to change my attitude. I am deciding that I will give my best effort and express love wether I want to or not. is it dishonest to hug your child when you really want them to just go play? No it is showing them love beyond your immdiate feelings (I believe love and attitude are both choices and I believe we can "feel" differently when we choose to have the right attitude)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mamajama
This sounds selfish, to me. So the ultimate goal here is to get oneself to heaven then?
It has nothing to do with getting to heaven. the goal is to bless my dh weather or not I am blessed in return. the goal is to serve my dh and therefore serve God even if no one ever gives a scrap to me. this is really quite the opposite of selfish IMHO. I bless my dh because I love him. I don't bless God so that I will win His favors or get to heaven. I serve God and Bless his name because he is worthy. he is worthy of this devotion and sacrifice. And to give it all up to Him is nothing. to serve others and to serve God is a refining fire for me. Sometimes it hurts but since I have started submitting my will to others (with a good attitude) out of reverance and obedience to Christ I have learned so much about my attitudes and motivations (not great stuff but at the same time knowledge of my shortcomings is the path to change).
post #36 of 587
On one hand, I understand that individuals need to focus on their own business and do the best they can to be good Christian people but on the other hand, I think the focus on the wife's duties is rife for potential abuse.

Women have these types of discussions (online and in real life) very commonly but where are the discussion boards for men? In my experience,it isn't as natural for men to have this type of discussion between themselves.

Again, I say there must be a balance.

BTW, perhaps TMI, but my dh doesn't want sex with me unless I really want to have sex with him. I'm glad I'm not married to a guy who would take some if I'm not in the mood to give some.

DB
post #37 of 587
But I can want to have sex with my husband even if I am not in the mood. I always want to have sex with my husband. Sometimes i am just feeling lazy or self focused andw ould like to stay there. better for both of us if I snap out of it.

and I don't know what the men talk about when they get together. I don't what thier books on being a good husband say. I do no it is not my place to shape into the perfect godly husband. It is not my place to judge how he is doing. That is between Christian men, my husband and God. Just like god delt with me individually on this.

can we go beck to a support non-questioning thread now. I miss it.
post #38 of 587
Quote:
can we go beck to a support non-questioning thread now. I miss it.
I agree.
post #39 of 587
Oh my goodness! I went out of town for a week and theres SO much I've missed!!
Forgive me if this gets a bit long...

bamamom Thank you for the story you shared. I don't doubt its truth. Before my marriage, I was the lost one and through viewing the unselfish, loving, godly actions of my now Dh I was changed. Not by his words or demands (he made none) but by seeing him living in Christ. Yes it took years, yes there was pain, yes I had to run away to recognize my feelings for Christ were for the love og Him and not because I loved Dh and he loved the Lord. ...actions, my friends, are so much stronger than any words.

Mamajama I appreciate your desire to question... there is no way for anyone to become beter than they are without a serious dose of introspection and challenge. You asked about whether one should follow God or one's husband if Dh's will was not in line with God's. From a biblical standpoint, the answer is easy. If Dh's will is not in line with the scriptures then he is not functioning in his role as head of the home the way he is supposed to ...not loving you as Christ did the Church. In such an instance, following Christ supercedes one's obligation to one's Dh. In essence, one ALWAYS follows Christ and, God willing, Dh's actions are in line with that too.

You also asked what if one was given musical tallent, etc. and Dh didn't want you to use it or pursue it?

Not to stroke my own ego, but just for illustrative purposes, I was given such "talent." My Dh was an international opera singer by profession for 25 years. We met doing a show together. I pursued a career along the same path. My Dh never asked me to give the career up, but if he had, though painful, I would have done so.
Without his insitence, I came to that conclusion on my own...and through viewing his actions. He traveled 10 or 11 months a year singing in the US and Europe before we married. When we married he retired from singing (although still had to finish several years of contracts...but he didn't take any more). He knew he wanted to be at home with me and our future children. He also knew that the life of an opera singer was not conducive to a stable marriage and family. I made the decision on my own that despite wanting the career (self centered), wanting to be a Good wife and mother was much more important to me (family centered). I still sing (in church ocassionally...and lullabyes to my baby, of course) and it is NO waste of my talent. It is simply an acknowledgement that there are things greater than myself to which I have a blessed duty.

DebraBaker mentioned that teaching kids to smile and look pretty is modeling passivity and teaching them to be a doormat.

I have to respectfully disagree with her the charecterization of submission as well as her conclusion. In acting in a biblically submissive way, a woman is teaching her children how to model the feminine ideal...not be a doormat. I have never felt like I was one, nor has my husband treated me that way. If I walk around with a scowl on my face and fail to take care of myself physically, then by all means, my husband will feel less inclined to be physically attracticed to me and will likely think less of me for my lack of effort. This is not to say that one should just blithely smile and be a little Stepford wife. It simply acknowledges that the only actions over which one has control are one's own. I can only change myself. Conjunctively, if I try my hardest to be the bright spot in my husband's life and to do things for him and give without expecting anything in return I am rewarded (not will be , but AM...daily). It is a natural response to feel happy when someone does somehting for you without expectation (on either side). That happiness leads to wanting to do something to make the other person feel just as good about themself as they were made to feel. It is a regerative circle. As far a physical appearence (dressing nicely and smiling are concerned) beyond it just being a generally nice thing to do, it recognizes one of the natural differences between the sexes. Men are much more visually stimulated than women. A man who doesn't wasnt sex from his spouse is a man who is either medically ailing or hurt/in pain in some way. This might be external to the marriage (ie/ his dad just died) or internal to it (ie/ there are problems within...ex: he might feel emasculated in some way by a wife unwilling to allow him to be a man, in all his differences).
I certainly make my opinion known to my husband (in a non confrontational way) and you know what? the more I defer to him, the more he asks for my opinion and counsel. Long answer short, submission is not about shutting up and looking pretty. Its about self sacrafice and respect for one's husband as leader...yes there can be too many chiefs...

Okay...getting too long. I'm going to post this monster and continue on in another post....
post #40 of 587
Ok, I came to post, but realize this thread is in need of mod direction. This is a support only forum. If you wish to debate submission, please start a thread in the RS forum. There is room in this thread for pleasant discussion of what submission is or how best to submit for women wishing to submit, but not room for debate about whether you should submit, etc. Is that clear, because I am having a bad day and I may not be making sense?

Taking off mod hat now. I am really frustrated with my husband. I feel like he is being well, not how I want him to be. He bought candy for the stockings but he bought candy ds doesn't eat and he doesn't want me to buy different candy. I don't like giving kids candy they don't like as a gift. Then he sits at home all night while I am at the hospital with my dying cousin from lunch until midnight, and complains the next morning that I won't finish painting the girls Christmas gift by Saturday. I wanted to ask him why he didn't do it since he didn't do anything at all that night. I don't feel like being a good wife at all so I need some inspiration, kwim?

I am not asking for advice to tell him off. I want to know why/how to submit when he don't feel he is being submit-worthy ().
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