#2 Biblical Marriage/Wife Submission Thread - Page 15

[lilyka]

I forgot to tell you thank you for sharing yoru story. It is so rare to hear from the women that stay. It is so encouraging to hear that there are women who choose to stay and fight for thier marriage and that we are not mentally deranged for doing so.

And should I feel the nee to make the trip to Canada - me and you babe i don't know what we would do once we got there

[mamajama]

Originally Posted by Lisa P

It is the same with respect. It is not a birthright. It is not damnded and then willingly given. It is earned. Just as the trust my husband desires from me is not automatically bestowed upon him because he wishes it to be so, neither is the respect I wish to be shown automatic.

Babies are born deserving respect. It is a birthrigh, a *human right* to be treated with respect.
Trust is a contract which can be broken. Respect is a right.

[afishwithabike]

mamajama I like what you said

Originally Posted by mamajama

Babies are born deserving respect. It is a birthrigh, a *human right* to be treated with respect.
Trust is a contract which can be broken. Respect is a right.

In fact I like a lot of the things you say. I am so glad you are here.

[daekini]

I only have time to make a quick post but wanted to delurk and say that I'm very interested in your discussions. Sometimes I feel wayyy too dominating in our relationship and I'm finding your thread an inspiration - I think it has already helped. hmmmm.

[lilyka]

welcome

[afishwithabike]

Welcome.

[oldermamato5]

welcome daekini

[Lisa P]

Originally Posted by mamajama

Babies are born deserving respect. It is a birthrigh, a *human right* to be treated with respect.
Trust is a contract which can be broken. Respect is a right.

Its a nice sentiment Mamajama, and as much as I wish it were true, I have to respectfuly dissagree with you. We are all born with the inherent right to be treated as thinking, feeling, hungering, loving human beings...however, the respect to which I refered was the respect that is assumed to be inately "due" in a marriage. Not the respect of life to which you seem to be refering. I was speaking in a purely marital sense.

While I agree with you that we are all born with certain human rights (basically revoling around the concept that we are to be treated as human and not animal) I disagree that there is an inherrent right to be "respected" (in the colloquial sense) in general. In modern secular society there tends to be a supported view that says "don't take that tone with me, don't look at me that way, don't disrespect me...you have to respect me or else..." where, what I was getting at is that (using the old analogy) its putting the cart before the horse. Why would anyopne respect a spouse or even a friend or co-worker who took that type of approach. We cannot demand respect and expect to get it based on our demand for it and footstamping that it is out right. It is not. We would sooner get the colloquial idea of "respect" people seem to think is due them by acting in a way that makes one deserving of it.

Neither is it a contract, for that matter. When I give respect (or trust, while we're on the subject) I give it because the person to whom I am giving it is deserving of it and I give it without expectation of a return. A contract requires that you give something to get something. We are not under any duty to one another to respond in such a way. It is only thorugh selflessly choosing to be trustwothy or respectful of others without expecting to "get" something for our efforts that others will see us as sincere and want to treat us similarily. This holds true both in marriage and in life in general.

[afishwithabike]

Originally Posted by Lisa P

When I give respect (or trust, while we're on the subject) I give it because the person to whom I am giving it is deserving of it and I give it without expectation of a return.

If this were the case it wouldn't work out very well either. We are as submissive women supposed to attempt to respect (and trust) people whether they "deserve" it or not. The bible doesn't say wives submit to your OWN husbands..."because they deserve it". I also don't see anywhere where it says love one another "because they "deserve" it. That would mean if they do wrong the DON'T "deserve" it. If we all got what we actually "deserved" everybody on earth would be in constant torment at the hand of God. Grace and Mercy covered that for us when Christ became our sacrafice. We are to treat all humans with respect and dignity (Yes, and trust them) whether they deserve it or not.

Trust may be broken but should never be completely lost. It is a growing process. Would you trust a three year old to babysit a 6 month old? No but you would trust them with a small task like helping pick up the toys. Trust should be linked with responsibility not love and respect. If you never trust somebody after they "do" something to you how can they ever function in the same light of your relationship. Your relationship is forever changed and that poor person is eternally on the short end of the stick with no chance of recovery. Not a good position to be in. I'm starting to again. I'm out for now.

[DaryLLL]

Luk 17:3 Take heed to yourselves; if your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him;
Luk 17:4 and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, and says, 'I repent,' you must forgive him."

Biblically, you only need to forgive if the trespasser repents.

or

Mat 18:21 Then Peter came up and said to him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?"
Mat 18:22 Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven.

490 times. Pick one. Or combine them. But do not forgive unless the transgressor repents.

[lilyka]

i have been thinking about th is over the last few days

just some breif random thoughts.

I have a feeling we all define respect differently.

I do not respect my children I love them and do what is right and what pleases God. I treat them how I would want to be treated. it has nothing to do with respect.

resepct is something that is conditional for me. I do not respond to my children, especially my babies, conditionally. what I give them is unconditional.

I had to look really hard to find a reason to respect my dh. I respected the crap out of that. as i respected him for that he became more respectable in other areas.

Most people will respect you if you are worthy of it. I think many of us judge ourselves more worthy of it than we are. at the same time if someone doesn't respect me I would do well to examine if I am acting in a worthy manner. If I am worthy it still doesn't make a lot of differene to me if they respect me. It might effect my willingness to hang out with them. My dh is different because i made a vow to stick with him through better and worse. I don't owe anyone else that.

I would not nessecarily trust a 3 year old to pick up blocks. only if they had proved trustworthy. at the same time i wouldn't hold that against a three year old. i don't expect babies to be all that trustworthy. But I don't trust my children until they prove trustworthy. Further more my childrens ability to follow through with cmpetence and know truth from lie is based largely on my parenting and how well I have taught them. so thier faults are my faults. I certainly wouldn't hold that against them. but at the same time unless they had proved trustworthy they wouldn't be trusted.

I can forgive without it effecting my whillingness to trust. I forgive my husband for the affair (daily) but will never trust him in that area completely again. i generally do not reserve forgiveness for people who repent. I have better things to do with my life then wait for repentance. weather or not they repent is between them and God.

[afishwithabike]

Sorry if my previous post was offensive. That was not my intention

[Lisa P]

Let's remeber please that this respect line of posting began because someone (or multiple someone's) said/implied that wives with imperfect husbands deserved more respect and should stand up for themselves and demand it. My posts were merely to drive home the point that eventhough each of us is called to behave in a particular way towards eachother (i.e. Husbands love honor and respect, etc.) that doesn't guarantee that you will be treated that way and demanding it isn't the best way to get it. This has all gotten very convoluted.

Originally Posted by Lisa P

When I give respect (or trust, while we're on the subject) I give it because the person to whom I am giving it is deserving of it and I give it without expectation of a return.

Originally Posted by afishwithabike

If this were the case it wouldn't work out very well either. We are as submissive women supposed to attempt to respect (and trust) people whether they "deserve" it or not. The bible doesn't say wives submit to your OWN husbands..."because they deserve it".

Even taking my words out of context cannont occlude their meaning. Never did I say that this somehow superceded my obligations according to the Bible. One can be deserving of my respect based soely on my biblical call to treat someone that way. Again, my focus here, was on the second half of the sentence...expectation. Demanding respect hinges on one feeling entitled and expecting that their actions will be met in kind. All I was saying was that I try to act well towards those around me, do my duty as a wife in terms of obedience/respect/whathaveyou but do it without getting my hackles up when the person on the receving end does not behave as he or she should or how I'd like them to. I choose to act as I should not to bask in the reward I get from the person on the other end treating me with equal care but to please God.

[DebraBaker]

I don't believe it is healthy for a woman (or a man for that matter) to just live under such circumstances.

I believe this is when there needs to be a mechanism for redress of grievences.

Not retribution but some redress.

If a man is not treating his wife appropriately there should be a proper way for a woman to handle the situation with dignity.

Debra Baker

[lilyka]

Oh fish, i hoppe you don't think i was offended by your post. My comments were breif not because I am angry but because i am having weird bone pain weirdness and it hurts to type.

i think ti is great that we are hashing out respect and trust and a persons entitlement (or lack there of) and what is a healthy way to deal with it and live where you are.

[AngelBee]

Checking in and catching up on the thread.

I have not been around much. Just wanted to say that I love you all!

[SheBear]

Originally Posted by DaryLLL

Luk 17:3 Take heed to yourselves; if your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him;
Luk 17:4 and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, and says, 'I repent,' you must forgive him."

Biblically, you only need to forgive if the trespasser repents.

or

Mat 18:21 Then Peter came up and said to him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?"
Mat 18:22 Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven.

490 times. Pick one. Or combine them. But do not forgive unless the transgressor repents.

Well, praise the Lord and pass me a popcicle, for once, I think we are in agreement!

I totally believe that forgiveness should not be handed out lightly--should only be granted where there are fruits of repentence. Unless it is asked for, I don't think forgiveness has much value, to either party. I know there are cases where the transgressor will never ask for forgiveness, say for example a child who is traumatized for years by a schoolyard bully, and there are those (therapists, counselors, etc) who would encourage that child to forgive the bully "for your own sake, so you can move past this" and I think that's fine, but I don't think it is at all the same as actual forgiveness. I think it is better called "coping" getting over past hurts and moving on with your life.

Forgiveness, IMO, always involves 2 parties, the transgressed and the transgressor. Actually, make that 3 parties, because the repentance is (should be) Godward.

All that said, I don't think that it is my place to judge whether repentance is "real" or not. IOW, if someone comes to me, begging forgiveness, then I should be willing to grant it wholeheartedly, unless/until it has been proven to me that they were not sincere in their repentance.

Okay, so that's a tangent, but I was so excited to actually agree with DaryLLL for once that I had to post, LOL!

[mama_b]

I posted on the 1st wife submission thread. I have not posted on this one, but I am always reading and just want to say that I think you are all wonderful. Your stories are very inspiring.

[beccaboomom]

I just want to share something I've started doing in the last couple of years when I'm angry at dh. I used to just lash out and say whatever came to mind when I was angry, now I make myself wait till I'm not angry then go to dh and tell him what is on my mind. One of two things usually happens, I realize what I was angry about was just not worth being angry about or I know exactly what had me upset and I can tell dh in a manner that helps resolve the issue.

[lilyka]

Thats actually a good nugget for any relationship.

I was watching this show and they were working with a woman who had a tendency to run on at the mouth. for a whole day she had to write down what she wanted to say (she could not speak anything that wasn't writting down) and set a timer for 5 minutes. if she still thought it needed to be said after 5 mimutes she could say it. I think she said less that 10% of what she wrote down. and most of it was requests for help or something of that nature. no put downs, no come backs, no sarcasm, veryt few opinions. It made me really start contemplating "does this really need to be said."