#2 Biblical Marriage/Wife Submission Thread - Page 4

[mamajama]

Is this thread still active?

I am wondering the best way to bring up the subject of submission with a relatively new relationship developing from a long friendship. The thing is, we've never actually discussed roles etc. but I do see, after reading (and asking lots of questios ) how, if I were to be more submissive within the context of a relationship, much friction and angst could easily be abolished and we could move forward together. Does anyone have any good ideas of how to bring this stuff up without coming off too heavy towards the start of a relationship?

[lilyka]

I think you could put the ball in his court. talk about how you desire a strong leader, someone you feel confident following, let him know you trust his leadership (if you do, if not reconsider the relationship), trust him, value his opinion in all things, want him to take the lead etc. Your lucky in that you are still at a place where you can choose if this is a guy you want to submit to and lay out any non-negotiable things while the relationship is still negotiable (yeah, i know I spelled that wrong). decide if such and such would be somthing you are willing to bend on should he insist. find out what he will insist on.

[mamajama]

Lilyka, thanks so much for your response. I was worried that the thread was no longer being used, so thanks.
There's a lot I'd like to respond to in your post but I have to run and take the kids for a visit with their Grandma. I do want to quickly ask, though; you say, "while the relationship is still negotiable". How do you know when it isn't? Or is it ever non-negotiable? I hope that makes sense. Gotta run but I will be back..

[lilyka]

by still negotiablelelelelelelele (I am a spelling moron) I mean you don't have to submit yet (well I guess you never *have* to.) So i would think negotiations would be over once you married him and he was the head of the family. Until then you can be just as bosy and non bending as you want to be because you don't owe him anything. with a good and rght attitude of course

I guess from the perspective of if i am ever in the position of chooseing a husband again I would put my cards on the table right away and say "here are the things I will not submit in (circ, vax, breast feeding, birth control, me staying at home, him actually supporting us, religous matters etc) take it or leave it."

[janerose]

Originally Posted by lilyka

I guess from the perspective of if i am ever in the position of chooseing a husband again I would put my cards on the table right away and say "here are the things I will not submit in (circ, vax, breast feeding, birth control, me staying at home, him actually supporting us, religous matters etc) take it or leave it."

That is an excellent idea! I can see it not working for everyone because lots of people don't research those subjects until they come up in their lives, but certainly if you already know they are issues for you they should be discussed.

I'd just like to add not to try to talk to him about ALL of this at once. You'll probably totally freak him out!

Maybe start with a casusal question or two about how he sees his family being (ie: he sees himself working & you staying at home, or vice versa, or you both working). It's a pretty basic "long term relationship" type question and could be the jumping off point for some of the other issues.

Blessings,
Holly

[mamajama]

I do see what you're saying Lilyka. I think using wisdom and foresight are of paramount importance when one is choosing a spouse. I do disagree, that after marriage, things become non-negotiable, however. Things can change, people can grow more in wisdom than when they first married, and as they do grow sometimes, their God given wisdom allows them to see that a different path is actually the right one. But I digress.

The person I am partnering with is not a man. So I suppose that adds a bit more to consider. There is no gender-specified role taking. It is more something I personally would like to think about.
My *own* actions yk? Especially if we start to consider marriage. It would be really important to me for she and I to have our roles at the very least roughly sketched out beforehand.

I think that it takes a lot of thought, study, wisdom, and experience to know the difference between one's desires and one's rights. And it takes the same to know when to fight for these things and when to acquiesce. That is what I struggle with. The balance between my own needs and desires, and those of my partner.

I have come to a place where I no longer have too much trouble fighting for my needs or leaving if they aren't ever going to be met. That strength took a long time to come to me and I went through a lot of struggle to get here. But now my challenge is backing down a bit. Trusting another person enough to sometimes submit to their desires before my own. The confusion, for me, also lies in seperating my needs and desires from those of my children within the context of an adult relationship in which I'm involved.

I think there is a lot of benefit to studying what the Christian Bible has to say in this regard. But my interpretation gets muddy so often when it comes to my own personal experiences.

[afishwithabike]

A few suggestions

Originally Posted by mamajama

Is this thread still active?

I am wondering the best way to bring up the subject of submission with a relatively new relationship developing from a long friendship. The thing is, we've never actually discussed roles etc. but I do see, after reading (and asking lots of questios ) how, if I were to be more submissive within the context of a relationship, much friction and angst could easily be abolished and we could move forward together. Does anyone have any good ideas of how to bring this stuff up without coming off too heavy towards the start of a relationship?

I will preface it by saying..... I had a few engagements before my DH that I ended..... I said that to say this....There are men out there that I personally couldn't submit to. Their personalities were weaker than mine. I had more life experience than they did and I am very opinionated. Submission doesn't work in every relationship. You are at a beautiful point in this relationship. You have a chance to discuss some important issues before getting serious. That way the things you wish not to waiver on are kept intact. I am of the mindset of being as honest as possible. If you want to know how they feel about something just ask. If it is right they will understand and not get "freaked out" about things getting too heavy.

[janerose]

mamajama, you may also want to look into reading "The Surrendered Wife". It deals with the same ideas but from a non-religious POV. You can do a search on-line and find her site. They used to have exerpts from the book online for you to read. Still written in the context of a hetero relationship, but you may find it helpful.

Off to spend the day with my family....

Happy New Year's everyone!!!

Blessings,
Holly

[SheBear]

Just real quick, in response to Mamajama's first post (#61)...

I haven't read the other responses yet, but I just wanted to say that, IMO, if this is a new relationship, and if you are taking it slow (as I surmised from your context), then IMO, you may not even need to have a talk about roles, submission, etc, at this point.

Since you are long-time friends, obviously you already play roles in each other's lives. It seems to me that you are personally searching right now, figuring out what role you want to take as a woman/wife. Figuring out how it all fits together with your beliefs, your personality, your goals, your vision of marriage, etc.

IMO, it might be more important right now for you to have a firm grasp on how you feel about all this, what you think is "right", etc., before you make it an issue in a newly-developing relationship. As your beliefs about your role as a woman and potential wife become more settled, then start treating this man as the kind of man you want him to be.

He will (IMO) either willingly step into his own role as a man/potential husband, or he won't. Then you will know, KWIM? I believe that most men are capable and willing of being strong leaders. I believe that God created them with the desire to lead, protect, guide and guard their families. I think that our current society has taken away from many men the understanding of how to fill that role, just as it has taken away from women the knowledge of how to fill our roles as true helpmeets, KWIM?

It is scary to try to change our world, especially when there are so few examples to look to. But if you start by seeking to fully understand your own role (and of course, consider deeply what characteristics and qualities you desire in your future spouse), then begin treating this man as your role demands, that will give him the opportunity to step into his own role more easily, you know? Basically, through your actions and reactions to him, give him "permission" to be the man he was created to be. I know, that doesn't sound very submissive, but I hope you understand what I mean...let him know in all your actions that you are willing to follow his lead, and he will likely be very willing to take the lead!

Then, as your relationship progresses, you can have conversations about roles, submission, etc., but they should come about very naturally, not in a forced, "Honey, we need to talk" sort of way, IMO. Just as a natural sharing of your beliefs, values, opinions.

Hope this makes sense...blessings to you and best of luck with this relationship! It sounds like a really great start!

[mamajama]

Thanks for your responses everyone.
I just want to say I *will* be back but I'll be off for a couple of days. Look forward to returning in the new year!

[lilyka]

Ok heres a doozey.

Submision in the context of marriage counseling.

how do I honor my husband and reaspect him while still putting everthing on the table when he doesn't want to.

DH lied to get me to marry him because he didn't think i would wait until he was ready which caused problems right from the start. I was not clued in about submission, leadership and my faith that God would bring all things right in time was not there. I figured I was honest going in, the Bible backed me so I had every right to demand. all of that lead to him eventually (and not in this order) having an affair, adiction to porn, and several other inappropriate relationships with women where he whined about me and everything wrong with me and and absolutely no qualms about lying to me about anything and everything. needless to say regardless of how naggy or unsubmissive I was none of that was even remotely appropriate or justifiable. i have no doubt I am just as to blame for our problems as he is but he crossed some serious lines. And I never allowed myself to stop trusting him or to acuse him until the night she called our house. and he was more woried about not being able to talk to her than he was about me just being delt the most horrible blow ever. Seriously I could not have been in worse shape if i woke up to a massacer. Now I am dealing with PTSD which is makeing healing from this all the harder.

So we are sitting in the pastors office (who doesn't know my dh or our story - i should point out i have never ever told anyone in real life what he did. Everyone who knows us thinks everything is just peachy keen and that he is a great guy and our marriage is just messy with the normal stuff and I am too stressed to leave the house much. But I could never shame my husband to people we know. It would jsut feel to vindictive to tell friends and what not. and it is embarrassing) the other day and he says "whats your biggest problem in your eyes?" . .i let dh take it because I wanted him to be able to get it out there on his terms. He says, I kid you not, communication. I was just stunned. Ok maybe that was the root of all evil (and his lack of honesty fromt he get go) but right now the biggest problem is that my heart has been ripped out and pissed on. I have been stabbed in the back, kicked in the gut and left in the cold by the only person in the world I trusted not to hurt me. (it was ugly people. there was nothing sacred about me between him and his girlfriend. i read the emails. They had great fun at the pain I was suffering. After I found out he said they weren't they were just friends and wouldn't talk anymore. they were talking about running away with my hildren, and laughing at my breakdowns and mnaking jokes about my lame attempts to salavege the marriage. ugly stuff. I am amazed at peoples ability to be cruel to other human beings. and to love each other in the face of that uglieness.) i can't communicate with him now because i have no idea what kind of fun games he will play with it. communication is a doozy but until this is delt with (he really minimizes it and just wants to forget he ever made such a bad choice) ~sorry I am rambling angry, forgive me. I am really going somewhere with this.~ Ok so i ask him if he was going to bring up his affair and he says "do you think I need to?"

Now after all that I know I am going to sound like a total nut job but I cannot be the one to bring it up. I do not feel it is my place to sit and expose my dhs sins to other like he has no heart. it would crush me to be that hurtful to him. rip a new one in private. absolutely but never ever in public. I could never sit there and shame him like that.

and there is a part of me that just doesn't want people to know how bad my husband treated me. how unlovable I really am.

is it ok for me to spill it? is that disrespectful (and I know most of you probably think he doesn't deserve respect)? Should I just pray that God would bring to light all things that need to come out of the closet? I don't want to hurt things fuirther and fior a while (while he was having the affair and I didnt know I did give up on the marriage and just went on a mission of destruction but nothing I wsaid was untruthful or behind his back) We talked (screamed) about it after counseling. he hates that I can't let it go. I hate that he can let it go as if it was nothing. But he agreed to email th pastor and let him know what happened and I could read it before he sent it and include my side of the story. that works for me. I think.

Ok so are we wasting time in counseling? Good grief, I feel like we are going to traumatize our counselor with our mess. .

anyone, help . . . .

[tracymom]

Originally Posted by lilyka

and there is a part of me that just doesn't want people to know how bad my husband treated me. how unlovable I really am.

is it ok for me to spill it? is that disrespectful (and I know most of you probably think he doesn't deserve respect)? Should I just pray that God would bring to light all things that need to come out of the closet? I don't want to hurt things fuirther and fior a while (while he was having the affair and I didnt know I did give up on the marriage and just went on a mission of destruction but nothing I wsaid was untruthful or behind his back) We talked (screamed) about it after counseling. he hates that I can't let it go. I hate that he can let it go as if it was nothing. But he agreed to email th pastor and let him know what happened and I could read it before he sent it and include my side of the story. that works for me. I think.

Ok so are we wasting time in counseling? Good grief, I feel like we are going to traumatize our counselor with our mess. .

anyone, help . . . .

Oh, this makes my heart hurt. So, so complicated.

Have you gone to your own counselor to work through these feelings? Because you know, it would be confidential, so it's not like you're running through the street with a banner announcing all the things he did to you.

It does sound as if he is clued in about the communication issue, but it would seem to me that the whole issue includes your present inability to feel *safe* communicating with him. So if it's *not* brought up, whoever counsels you doesn't have the complete picture. And like a physician, the counselor's going to have to have the whole picture in order to treat the problem. KWIM?

I personally don't think telling the truth is disrespectful or against submitting. If you were vindictive, screaming names, pledging not to ever trust again, I could see the problem with it. But he made choices, bad ones to be sure, and it has impacted your relationship with each other and likely with God. I would think open and honest truth in the safety of the counselor's office would do more to help than anything else.

You'll be in my prayers tonight, Lilyka. :

[Lisa P]

Wow. Been there. So much to say...not enough time in the world to say it all. In brief, telling it all to a counselor (the pastor and even your personal counselor) is not something that I see as going against your duty to submit. You have a duty to the thrid "person" in your relationship and that is, of course, God. Your duty regarding your marriange includes Him...and in that context, you need to be as honest with your pastor as your are with the Lord when it comes to your marital issues. Your duty to God in the context of marriage is first, to uphold and fix, if at all possible, the bonds of marriage so the two of you can function as the single entity you became when you were wed. This is where the dominion by right of our husbands come in. If a husband is acting in a way that is contrary to Gods law then we as wives are not required to submit. Your situation seems no differnt to me. He is essentially asking you to lie in the context of fixing the marriage - leave something out that is essential to healing the rift. I don not think submitting in this situation is in the best interest of your marriage...and that is your primary focus - the marriage.
I have so much more I could say, but time is short.
You are in my thoughts and prayers...more later.

PS: just a thought on the trust issue/rehashing the affair...
Your dh may never be able to completely own what he did, he may never be able to apologize or even admit all of it. You have chosen to stay. By your chioce to do so, you have chosen forgiveness. Never forget that. As hard or darn near impossible as it may be... To forgive doesn't mean to forget it ever happened. But it does mean that there needs to be shift in how you respond to him regading this stuff. You have chosen forgiveness, please don't make him feel like he still hasn't been forgiven or else your "choice" has little effect in terms of healing your marriage.

[lilyka]

Originally Posted by tracymom

If you were vindictive, screaming names, pledging not to ever trust again, I could see the problem with it.

See this is part of the problem. If i thought I could bring it up in a humble merciful graceful way I would however . . . . .every time I start talking about it. . . . well, anger and hurt seem to over ride forgiveness and mercy

thank you both.

[tracymom]

Originally Posted by lilyka

See this is part of the problem. If i thought I could bring it up in a humble merciful graceful way I would however . . . . .every time I start talking about it. . . . well, anger and hurt seem to over ride forgiveness and mercy

: Well, hon, you're human, you know? If forgiveness was easy, everybody'd do it, right? I'm thinking maybe a few sessions alone with a counselor could help you overcome that visceral reaction and get to a place of real communication if that's where you really want to go. I don't see that you would be shaming him by that in any way. Praying for your journey.

[whimsy]

Sweeping it under the rug is not going to help your DH. He needs to be able to get to the bottom of what caused this behavior. (and really, it had little to nothing to do with you - I'd bet on it) He is acting out from some deep hurts somewhere. You may do some research on sexual addiction.

My response is solely based on your decision to stay. If you were choosing to leave I'd say kick him in the 'nads and be done with it. (but that probably isn't the best answer) It sounds like he has chosen to walk away from the other woman and stay with you. Is that correct?

I believe it IS biblical to go to church elders with this sort of problem. This is one of the reasons God wants us in fellowship. If it is too embarrassing, can you go to another town for counseling?

You need some counseling for yourself alone. You have to make sure you don't fall into the doormat role. it will be fatal to your marriage. You have to get yourself strong.

I'd recommend "love must be tough" (I can't remember who wrote it) It really helped me deal with some issues in our marriage (tho not to the extent you are dealing with)

Marriages have recovered from this and been stronger and healthier, but it's going to take both of you baring your souls to do it. That totally sucks for you (but what part of this doesn't?) but God is there with you the whole time. (and us too - we can be your "anonymous" support system)

[tracymom]

How're you doing, lilyka? Been thinking about you.

[afishwithabike]

is it ok for me to spill it? is that disrespectful (and I know most of you probably think he doesn't deserve respect)? Should I just pray that God would bring to light all things that need to come out of the closet? I don't want to hurt things fuirther and fior a while (while he was having the affair and I didnt know I did give up on the marriage and just went on a mission of destruction but nothing I wsaid was untruthful or behind his back) We talked (screamed) about it after counseling. he hates that I can't let it go. I hate that he can let it go as if it was nothing. But he agreed to email th pastor and let him know what happened and I could read it before he sent it and include my side of the story. that works for me. I think.

Ok so are we wasting time in counseling? Good grief, I feel like we are going to traumatize our counselor with our mess. .

anyone, help . . . .

I would bring it up in counseling. Somebody has to. As a pp said you need not name names. If a person can't be honest and open in counseling the counseling can't help. Hiding stuff that is seriously draining the strength from your marriage will not strengthen your marriage. Blaming yourself for others actions will not help you. There may have been things that you could have done differently, but that is no longer the issue. Now the issue is porn, infidelity, and the door to extramarital sins being kicked wide open. God of course can forgive all these things. The fact that he is willing to get counselng is a good sign, but if he won't bring up the porn, affairs, etc.. it will do no good. Try to get him to bring it up in counseling first. If he doesn't then you can. Generally people should want to fix themselves in order for true change to occur. For example..If my DH bought me a gym membership hoping to help me lose weight it will only work if i actually go to the gym.

[lilyka]

I am doing well. yesterday was good.

afish - you make a good piont. and I think I would feel better if I still gave him a chance top bring it up first and just let him know that one of us will bring it up but i will give him a chance tyo do it his way fitrst. That feels respectful and sensitive. I don't even care what he says about it because we can talk about the finer points once it is out there.

[mamajama]

Lilyka, have you considered speaking alone with a counsellor or pastor? Talking to a professional about things that have gone on in your marriage is not betraying or disrespecting your husband. These people maintain confidentiality. You deserve to have your thoughts and feelings validated. You deserve support, love and respect from your spouse. You deserve to feel emotionally safe with the person with whom you share a life. These things are not bonuses or rewards. They are fundamental aspects to a healthy relationship and they are basic needs when you choose to give of your love to another adult. I wish you much peace in all this.

Originally Posted by janerose

mamajama, you may also want to look into reading "The Surrendered Wife". It deals with the same ideas but from a non-religious POV.

Janerose, I believe I specifically stated in a previous post that I'm interested in looking at this stuff from a christian perspective. I do think I'd have posted in Parents as Partners or Queer Parenting or elsewhere if I were looking for secular resources--not Spirituality KWIM? I can't help but wonder that you'd specifically mention only a non-religious resource. Is it because I disclosed this aspect of my sexuality?
I also find it, I don't know, amusing maybe, that even after I posted, my partner was referred to as a man. Just in case anyone missed it, she's a woman. No hard feelings but it makes me feel like I'm certainly not really being "heard" on this thread.




I was speaking with a friend about this subject recently, and she made an interesting point. It was something along these lines and I'd love to discuss it if anyone's interested:
If you just take out that word "submit" and replace it with respect or honor or even trust, you can have the kind of relationship most women really want. They want to respect their men, make them feel "like men." They also want their dhs to also respect them, of course. But they are shooting themselves in the feet by putting "submit" in there, b/c it can lead to imbalance abuse so easily, give a man the right to do whatever he wants whether the woman wants it or not.