#2 Biblical Marriage/Wife Submission Thread - Page 5

[lilyka]

She did point out that she hadn't read the responses

I think it changes things when you put a two women together. I don't know that it can be looked at in the same context. Part of the beauty of the order of submission is that men were created to be the head and women the helper and women were commanded to submit to the husband. God gave men certain qualities and responsibilities and women others.

i suppose you can assign roles as leader and follower. head and helper. husband and wife. but that is not Biblical. I mean part of the reason this works for me is that this is how God designed it for men to be in one role and women to be in the other. I don't know how you would transfer that to a same gender relationship. (and I don't mean any of this judgmentally.) as far as submitting to reduce conflict, as Christians we are called to submit to one another out of reverance to Christ. Ity is more than just a good idea and it is easy enough to impliment. And if submission isn't mutual you can are also called to be a peace maker which often involves submitting your will to bring the peace. Our call to submission is not exclusive to man/woman marriage by any means. it is jsut essential in this relationship above all others and far from optional. I think it is hard for our husbands to lead effectively when we lack a submissive spirit.

and yes you can sub respect, honor whatever and it is easier to swallow. But the Bible is clear that we are commanded to submit. Love and honor and respect are great but we are commanded to submit to our husbands. submitting isn't easy. submitting speaks to your heart, your will and your attitude. it is not enough to give in. it calls you into agreement, not just obedience. It brings peace. not just a ceace (sp?) fire. It is about more than loving. It is about more than sacrifice. It is about more than giving. It is not an easy calling. Yet oddly it is not burdonsome either. The responsibility is lifted off me and to the one in the position of leadership.

[SheBear]

Originally Posted by lilyka

She did point out that she hadn't read the responses

I think it changes things when you put a two women together.

And obviously, I didn't read your post very well, either Mamajama!

I'm so sorry--I do apologise. No excuses, but can we chalk it up to a brain malfunction due to very advanced pregnancy?

And I do agree with Lilyka's statement above....IMO, the same-sex relationship does change everything, and I'm in no way qualified to address your questions. Not that I'm "qualified" to address any relationship, but at least I feel to have a firmer footing when discussing husband/wife interactions, KWIM?

So, I have no idea if anything I said previously is at all helpful, but I'm not going to try to edit it. I'll just let it stand as a testimony to the dangers of post-skimming, LOL!

forgiveness and hugs all around, please?

[afishwithabike]

Yes Yes Yes

Originally Posted by mamajama

I specifically stated in a previous post that I'm interested in looking at this stuff from a christian perspective.

I was speaking with a friend about this subject recently, and she made an interesting point. It was something along these lines and I'd love to discuss it if anyone's interested:
If you just take out that word "submit" and replace it with respect or honor or even trust, you can have the kind of relationship most women really want. They want to respect their men, make them feel "like men." They also want their dhs to also respect them, of course. But they are shooting themselves in the feet by putting "submit" in there, b/c it can lead to imbalance abuse so easily, give a man the right to do whatever he wants whether the woman wants it or not.

Yes the Greek word is respect. Which means NOT a doormat. I would recommend a book for your situation that I found most helpful in my life. It is called One Flesh by Bob Yandian. It gives great examples of how Christian relationships are supposed to work. I know I learned more in this book than in anything else in my life. If you are interested you could have my copy. I will ship it to you if you are interested.

[lilyka]

According to my new testement professor the word is not the same. I would type it out but his comments filled my entire title page and then some. (maybe I could scan it) and he was writing small. I did a 20 page exigesis on that passage assertaining that submision was similar to respect and far differencet from obedience and he said I and my 15 sources were all wrong (still gave me an A for my ability to argue my case effectively . I got a C for editing though ) Apparently the word is the same one used for obedience. I however (In my infinite unquestionable wisdom : ) think submission is a higher call than obedience. And certainly differnt than respect. You can respect someone without agreeing with them or following thier lead and no doubt respect is very important in a relationship and apparently its more important to men to b respected than to recieve love and affection. or so I am told. But submission calls into agreement.

[Lisa P]

Ok, need your help today ladies...confession time...

I officially had a buck-authority-subbmit-to-THAT? problem yesterday. Dh wants us to be in in bed by 11 and I didn't start getting ready for bed untill then...he was pissy that I didn't get into bed until 11:20. I was pissy because it felt arbitrary. Any way you cut it, though it might be stupid to think of submitting to your dh in terms of bedtime, I failed, nonetheless, to submit to his will in this area. Not only did I not do so joyfully, I argued about the whole idea of a "bedtime" with him. As I write this it sounds SO stupid...
But I know, in terms of having a leader, we need to allow that person to lead - not to pick when we think they should lead and when we think we need not follow (unless blatantly biblically contrary). Otherwise, everything becomes a judgment call.
Any thoughts?

[lilyka]

Ya know, sometimes it is easier to submit to the really big "hard" things than than the stupid little piddly ones like a freaking bed time. it is one things to say "lets go to bed together and around 11:00" but for him to get grumpy over 20 minutes. I can see why this was hard for you to submit joyfully.

Sometimes it helps me to go to a different place. ratyher than think "this dope is getting controlling over a couple of minutes at bedtime" think positive thoughts. Is there something fun waiting under the covers will it please the socks off your dh if he can get to bed earlier? consider it your way of helping him get the sleep he needs. Dwell on anything besides "this is just dumb" regardless of how silly or unreasonable it realy is. Because if your mind is saying "this is just dumb" your heart is going to follow. but if your mind is looking for ways to make this reasonable and submit hoyfuly then your heart is moer likely to follow that.

[Lisa P]

Originally Posted by lilyka

rather than think "this dope is getting controlling over a couple of minutes at bedtime" think positive thoughts. .

You pretty much read my mind
Thanks Lilyka. How are you doing today?

[lilyka]

I am doing ok

I am supposed to be finding a sitter . . .ther eis nothing I hate more in the world. . . .positive thoughts . . positive thoughts. . . .

[SheBear]

Originally Posted by mamajama

I was speaking with a friend about this subject recently, and she made an interesting point. It was something along these lines and I'd love to discuss it if anyone's interested:
If you just take out that word "submit" and replace it with respect or honor or even trust, you can have the kind of relationship most women really want. They want to respect their men, make them feel "like men." They also want their dhs to also respect them, of course. But they are shooting themselves in the feet by putting "submit" in there, b/c it can lead to imbalance abuse so easily, give a man the right to do whatever he wants whether the woman wants it or not.

I think you have raised a very interesting point for discussion, and I'm sure there are many subscribed to this thread who have much wisdom and insight to share. Personally, however, I do not feel that this is the appropriate thread for such a discussion, no matter how careful and respectful the members try to be. This is a support-only thread for those who have already embraced the concept of submission within marriage, and to start debating the value of that word is, IMHO, counterproductive at best. I really value this tribe, have gotten so much encouragement from the members here, even though I'm not able to participate as fully as I would like at the moment. I would really hate to see it devolve (again) into just another semantics debate.

That said, I would certainly be interested in seeing your question discussed on another thread!

Blessings,

[SheBear]

Lisa P, I have BTDT far too often lately. Lilyka is right--it's much easier to submit to the BIG stuff. The little stuff is there to trip us up, I think!

I can wholly embrace dh's 5 year plan for our family, which includes downsizing in a lot of areas so that he will be able to step back (at least partially, hopefully completely) from his secular job and be able to serve the church full-time. That oughtta be scary, but I can get on board without a problem. But when he brings up the idea of having a set daily schedule, or suggests that I start putting my shoes in the closet rather than under the bed, I can think of all sorts of reasons why his ideas are stupid, unreasonable, controlling, inflexible, and "it just ain't gonna happen!"

Usually when I look at it rationally (which is much easier said than done!) I can see that those times when he starts "laying down the law" over little things are times when I have been trying to take over in other ways. Honestly, I think those little things are his subconcious way of testing his authority, some inner part of him feeling the reins of leadership slipping and he quickly pulls up the slack, if that makes sense.

I think that if I can learn to do a better job of responding to his leadership in all ways, he will feel more truly in charge, and not have such a need to control the details. Moreover, I need to be much more diligent in training (especially via modeling) our children to respond absolutely to his leadership and authority. I fail miserably in that regard.

Lilyka, of course, hit the nail on the head....where your mind wanders, there your heart will follow....lilyka, you rock! You're my hero, you know? Hope the sitter hunt goes well...I used to have a great sitter, then she graduated and joined the Navy. *sob* I miss her so much....especially right now when I really need to know I have someone I can count on to come stay with my kids when I go into labor....dh keeps reminding me that it will all work out, that I need to just relax and trust God to take care of it. Maybe I'll labor thru the night and they will awaken just as their new sibling is being born!

[lilyka]

The cousins are sitting for us. fun for everyone. I might even be able to escape to the coffee shop for some precious time for myself. I have been wigging out the last couple of days and wanting to run away. Dh keeps teling me to get a sitter and go do something but even having to get a sitter is just not the same as being able to say "I think I shall go for a walk right now, alone." it is a whole preduction of makign calls, negotiating fees,dressing, bundling and loading everyone up in the car and well, ya know. . . . . it is hard not having any time where I am free of them. I think Ireland is nice this time of year and tehre is no language barrier. for the most part . . and we have the frequent flyer miles. . . . all I need is a passport and a sitter .. ..

[mamajama]

Originally Posted by SheBear

I think you have raised a very interesting point for discussion, and I'm sure there are many subscribed to this thread who have much wisdom and insight to share. Personally, however, I do not feel that this is the appropriate thread for such a discussion, no matter how careful and respectful the members try to be. This is a support-only thread for those who have already embraced the concept of submission within marriage, and to start debating the value of that word is, IMHO, counterproductive at best. I really value this tribe, have gotten so much encouragement from the members here, even though I'm not able to participate as fully as I would like at the moment. I would really hate to see it devolve (again) into just another symantics debate.

That said, I would certainly be interested in seeing your question discussed on another thread!

Blessings,

OK, well, the parameters are far too strict and detailed for this thread, and since I don't have the power to make myself microscopic in order to fit between them, I will do as you suggest and hit the road. Thanks for the tip.

[boobybunny]

So basically, you want no one to ask ???? and look for information, all you want is to be in a monochromatic world? I have major questions about the way you all are choosing to live. I live my life, and treat my husband with the honor and respect he deserves. If my questions challenge your views or make you think at all, you will ask me to leave? I do not feel welcomed, I do feel like this is much of Christian community because of the lack of welcomed and sharing.

[tracymom]

Originally Posted by SheBear

I would really hate to see it devolve (again) into just another symantics debate.

Semantics.

I thought a long time before I responded because I got the sense that you thought a long time formulating your response, as well, and wanted to respect that.

I think I, too, will make my exit from the thread, as I think my concept of the word "submission" isn't quite narrow enough or quite literal enough for the purposes of this thread, and apparently questions about how broadly or narrowly the meaning of the word is to be taken are not welcome. I initially only posted because lilyka's earlier post broke my heart and I was *really* disappointed to see very few people responding to her heartfelt post. I felt a nudging to reach out, step in her shoes and try to understand. Maybe some of you felt that, but didn't know what to say. Next time, post anyway.

[mamajama]

Originally Posted by tracymom

Semantics.

I thought a long time before I responded because I got the sense that you thought a long time formulating your response, as well, and wanted to respect that.

I think I, too, will make my exit from the thread, as I think my concept of the word "submission" isn't quite narrow enough or quite literal enough for the purposes of this thread, and apparently questions about how broadly or narrowly the meaning of the word is to be taken are not welcome. I initially only posted because lilyka's earlier post broke my heart and I was *really* disappointed to see very few people responding to her heartfelt post. I felt a nudging to reach out, step in her shoes and try to understand. Maybe some of you felt that, but didn't know what to say. Next time, post anyway.

Thank you Tracymom. I leave saddened, but comforted by your thoughtfulness.

[SheBear]

Thanks for correcting my spelling.....I do have a dictionary around here somewhere, I really do!

Of course I have no intention of driving anyone away from this thread, even if I were presumptuous enough to think that I had the power to do so. My only issue is with the idea of changing/substituting/replacing the word "submit" as if it were somehow the wrong word. Obviously, we are all going to personally (and differently) interpret exactly what the word means, and how it relates to our relationships, etc. My understanding (and certainly my application) of the word is likely quite different from others who are subscribed here.

But to simply do away with the term, or to suggest that it can be easily replaced or substituted is what concerns me. It is a very unique term, and IMO, it's usage is very important. By all means, let us discuss the meaning of submission. Let us discuss the application, the nuances. But please, please don't ask us to get rid of it. To replace or omit it changes everything, IMO, and not for the better.

Respect, honor, trust.....wonderful ideals. I certainly want them in my marriage, and I am thankful that I have a marriage that is founded on such ideals. But I also want--crave--this heart of willing submission. It is different, vitally so, from all those other terms. I'm discovering that it is much more precious--more precious in the sense of being rarer, harder to grasp, harder to cling to. And IMHO, it seems to be more precious also in the sense of being more valuable, because I am finding that when I am able to tame my heart into submission before my husband, those other qualities (respect, honor, trust and many more besides) begin to flow between us much more freely. More joyfully. Almost like my heart of submission is creating a conduit for them, if that makes sense.

Anyway, that is why I am interested in maintaining the importance of the term "submission" etc. for the purposes of this thread. But I was being sincere when I said that I think it is a very interesting point for discussion, one that would no doubt bring out a lot of valuable insight and soul-searching. And I was also being sincere when I said I'd love to see it discussed on another thread. There was no hidden motive in my post. It's an interesting point. It deserves discussion. I hope it will be. I just don't think this is the thread for it....that's just my honest, simple, plain, sincere opinion, worthless though it may be.

But obviously I don't own this thread, nor do I moderate it, so my opinion makes little difference in the larger scheme of things--discuss away; I'll simply refrain!

[afishwithabike]

We were not disputing what submission meant

Some have learned it a little different than others. I have heard it both ways....One translation called it "willfull alignment" another called it respect. Personally to me willfull alignment is very respectful. It is not to tear down the sincerity of what is being done here. I have been very touched by this thread and it seems as others have been as well. I pray nobody leaves and we all can learn a little more from each other. God Bless

[DaryLLL]

Is part of being a submissive wife training your children to submit to the absolute authority of their father, as SheBear said?

Do you train the girls to be more submissive and the boys to be leaders? Do you train your girls to submit to their brothers as practice for wifedom?

[afishwithabike]

Do you train the girls to be more submissive and the boys to be leaders? Do you train your girls to submit to their brothers as practice for wifedom?

Some do feel that way. I however don't. I recently argued with a friend about this. She was saying hoe she was glad she only had boys because "I wouldn't know how to teach them to learn how to be mom's. I wouldn't want them to go to college because they will be staying home and taking care of their children" I about hit the floor. The thought of just teaching my DD how to cook clean and be "barefoot and pregnant" made me sick. How do you know that your daughter will not be called into some major career. I feel it best to get that established early on. If she has a desire for a career and wantes to be independent so be it. If she wants to be a Mom and stay home. That's great! If she wants to interpret the scriptures to mean what I feel they mean fine. My Mom gave us options. A choice to follow the beliefs of her church or find another path to worship God. That proved to be a valuable asset in my life.

[lilyka]

I teach my dd that the role of a wife is to be submissive to thier husbands. And if they don't want to live life as a wife there are also many blessings in singleness and God has called some women to that role. Knowing ahead what Gods plan for marriage is I do think will mke it easier to find the right husband so that submission will not be such an issue.

I would teach sons (if I were so blessed) to be strong leaders, to love women, to be generous and caring and intrested in his wifes mind. A strong leader who is easy to follow and trustworthy enough so that even when it is hard his wife can follow with confidence. I would teach him that a good leaders considers the well being of his folowers first and foremost and how controlling is not leading but a ticket to rebellion.

but when it all comes down to it girls learn to act like ladies by watching thier mother and boys learn to act like men by watching thier dad. lats hope we are being the sort of people we want our children to become.

And no of course I would not expect (nor allow) my dds to be in a place of submision to thier brothers on the basis of "practicing". I do expect my children to submit to one another out of reverance for Christ and love each other sacrificially but none of them have athourity or leadership over the other. None of them are "head of the siblings" . The only person with athourity over a child is thier parent and the only person with athourity over a wife is the husband. while i will submit to others out of reverance to Christ and to bring peace, the only person I feel obligated to submit to every time is my husband. It is crucial to a peacful relationship that one of us leads strongly while the other can submit in confidence (the reason we don't have peace now is because his leadership is still growing).

I think the mistake people make with submission is thinking that the woman is never heard. of course some men are jerks and thier sweet submissive wives are saints. But most men love thier wives, think she is intellegent and takes wise counsle from her because no smart guy would turn his back on half the wise counsle in the world. Many men out there love thier wives and would fall over dead to make them happy, give them thier way, provide them with every little pleasure. many women have been entrusted with much and given much freedom. let me tell you, it is not hard for some women to submit. In many relationships there is a pretty even exchange. the key is knowing who makes the final call. not using that position to manipulate and get your own way just cause you can. not selfish taking just because your husband is willing. I would dare say some of the women who live with jerks have it easier because the lines are mroe clearly drawn.