Birth & Beyond: C/S sub-forum? - Page 2

[mamameg]

Originally Posted by LizD

It is often impossible to discuss making a cesarean positive.

There are many women who have a c/s because...

1) they have weighed the risks of their particular situaiton and decided they are most comfortable with c/s, whether its a first time c/s or a repeat

or

2) they have no other choice because no hospitals intheir area will do vbac's and they are not comfortable with homebirth (or they can't find midwives who will attend hbacs or they can't afford the out of pocket hbac expense)

These women need support - more support than is available in one thread that gets lost in the shuffle.

ETA: I know the reasons women have c/s are not limited to the reasons I listed above... these are just two that I think are common. There are many, many reasons women have c/s - exactly why we need a forum to discuss the topic in depth.

[Smithie]

... or, as is my fear, their baby doesn't turn and they make the choice not to travel to the Farm or risk an illegal HB. Those aren't choices I'm interested in defending endlessly, should I wind up having to make them, God forbid.

[Rivka5]

Originally Posted by LizD

As a doula I've been to many cesareans and am interested in discussing how to make necessary cesareans better for all parties- without rehashing all the statistics, etc. about the too-high cesarean rate. It is often impossible to discuss making a cesarean positive. Mothering readers are more likely to seek such conversation; why should they be referred to mainstream boards, where they *still* won't get the support they're seeking?

Oh my gosh, yes.

When my midwives told me that I had a high risk of C-section due to my history of multiple pelvic surgeries, I had a terrible time finding any information at all that didn't focus on "most C-sections are unnecessary." While I don't disagree with that at all, I wanted to know how to make a C-section as birthlike and non-traumatic as possible if it *was* necessary. I wound up buying a 20-year-old book from a used book dealer, because it was the only source of positive information I could find. MDC could really help fill that gap.

[AnditheBee]

Wow, what a great response! I think I will post a link over in B&B so that any moms there who feel the same can post their thoughts here. Maybe if enough people ask, we can get a forum that meets our needs and those of others dealing with, or hoping to avoid, the same issues.

I think it's important to note that people who come to MDC are going to quickly realize it is not geared toward mainstream ideas of birth--I don't think putting a c/sec forum inside B&B is going to make anyone think it's being advocated as desirable, not with the other sub-forums that are already there! You don't exactly see "Unassisted Birth" forums on mainstream sites, that's for sure!

Besides, the forum can be called something like "C-section SOS!" (I know that's kind of dramatic, but it's off the top of my head) or something else that conveys the idea that it's a forum for those who have had, but did not really want, or who are hoping to avoid, c-sections.

[*~Danielle~*]

I would love to see info and support of mom's who have had c-sections. I am crunchy and believe that birth is natural and shouldn't be treated as a disease....having said that, my beliefs and reality didn't come together for me. What do I do now? I need support and commonality.

[mizmerricat]

Originally Posted by *~Danielle~*

I would love to see info and support of mom's who have had c-sections. I am crunchy and believe that birth is natural and shouldn't be treated as a disease....having said that, my beliefs and reality didn't come together for me. What do I do now? I need support and commonality.

:
I would desperately love some support and understanding regarding my c-section, but the lone support thread on B&B is overwhelming and intimidating. A c-sec forum on mothering is by it's very nature going to be different from mainstream boards, but as long as the reality of life includes c-sec, both necessary and unnecessary, there is a need that should be filled.

[LizD]

Originally Posted by AndiB

Besides, the forum can be called something like "C-section SOS!" (I know that's kind of dramatic, but it's off the top of my head) or something else that conveys the idea that it's a forum for those who have had, but did not really want, or who are hoping to avoid, c-sections.

But that wouldn't meet the need of those for whom almost everything about Mothering is relevant except the lack of a forum for discussing cesarean birth. To me, "SOS" still conveys that there's something to be helped, and that isn't the case for everyone. Just a plain old Cesarean Birth Forum is all folks are asking for.

[fyrflymommy]

I guess I'm the lone dissenting voice here, but I think that having a csec support board would be akin to the discussion about having a formula feeding support board. Just as was discussed here about FF, Mothering knows that there are women who must FF for whatever reason. Just as there are mothers for whom having a csec is in their best interests for whatever reason. But same as FFing, there are other places to go to discuss it. I really do think that the general reasons for not having a FF board apply to not having a csec board.


fyrfly

[Vasmommy]

Originally Posted by fyrflymommy

I guess I'm the lone dissenting voice here, but I think that having a csec support board would be akin to the discussion about having a formula feeding support board.

I can agree with that. MDC has a very biased view of childbirth and parenting; they don't deny that. Not all MDC readers share every view. When you find yourself not following the philosophy, ya go elsewhere to find support. Easy peasy. But ya don't expect MDC to lax their principles to adhere to the masses.

That said, I may very soon find myself in need of asking C/S questions. I'll post in the B&B forum. I'll take what I can from the responses, leaving the pithy ones behind. No biggie.

[Smithie]

Vasmommy, I really think you're missing the point. Medically necessary C-sections happen to EVERYONE, including hardcore crunchy mamas who would never, ever be able to find the kind of support and information they needed at a "mainstream" board. It's not about ideology.

I actually think we do a better job of supporting mamas who have nursing difficulties - Low Supply tribe, etc. Supply issues are accepted as real and valid. I think we also accept certain C-sections as valid (for previa, significant fetal distress, grand multiparas who are all tangled up, VBAC in a woman whose uterus was not properly sutured the first time around, footling breech etc.). But we treat these births as tragic, and they don't NEED to be tragic, and they could be much better experiences if we shared information and strategies for planning the births and handling the experience just as we do for every other type of birth.

Necessary C-sections are NOT against Mothering's philosophy. I am under the distinct impression that Peggy, Cynthia et. al. are glad that surgical birth is available to women and babies who have an abnormally high risk of death if they attempt to birth vaginally. I have never read anything in the magazine that would contradict that, for sure.

[Vasmommy]

Not at all missing the point. Of course medically necessary C/Ss happen. My point is that by making a forum specifically for cesarean, it appears supportful of ALL cesareans. And that's not what MDC is about.

In the rare event one "needs" a cesarean, posting in B&B is appropriate enough. Take the good advice, leave the criticisms of naysaying "know-it-alls" behind. If one is truly secure in their cesarean choice, they shouldn't have a problem doing this.

[Smithie]

I totally disagree that there's no way to have a supportive subforum for medically indicated surgical birth without simultaneously condoning elective and institutionally mandated surgical birth. It's not like MDCers are not gifted with the powers of discernment and critical thought. Somehow, some way we have managed to welcome discussion and information-sharing about supplementation for mamas who need it without turning into a subsidiary of Enfamil.

We are being told, by mamas who have BTDT, that the current support thread is an insufficient resource. I think we should listen.

[J-Max]

As a 3X c-sec mom and a somewhat active poster on the c-sec support thread, I would love to have a c-sec subforum. Those of us BTDT mommas can (and have many times) advise those preparing for a needed c-sec how to have the most natural/"normal" birth possible. What and how to ask the doctors and hospital can make or break you birth experience, trust me. I expect tha majority of posters here at MDC ar not looking forward to a c-sec, but to have a place to discuss the issues, fears, and happyness that surround them without have to search through a huge support thread with many different topics.

I would be an active practipant in a c-sec subforum!

[Drummer's Wife]

Originally Posted by Smithie

Vasmommy, I really think you're missing the point. Medically necessary C-sections happen to EVERYONE, including hardcore crunchy mamas who would never, ever be able to find the kind of support and information they needed at a "mainstream" board. It's not about ideology.

I actually think we do a better job of supporting mamas who have nursing difficulties - Low Supply tribe, etc. Supply issues are accepted as real and valid. I think we also accept certain C-sections as valid (for previa, significant fetal distress, grand multiparas who are all tangled up, VBAC in a woman whose uterus was not properly sutured the first time around, footling breech etc.). But we treat these births as tragic, and they don't NEED to be tragic, and they could be much better experiences if we shared information and strategies for planning the births and handling the experience just as we do for every other type of birth.

Necessary C-sections are NOT against Mothering's philosophy. I am under the distinct impression that Peggy, Cynthia et. al. are glad that surgical birth is available to women and babies who have an abnormally high risk of death if they attempt to birth vaginally. I have never read anything in the magazine that would contradict that, for sure.

I think this was very well said and I think that if there was a c-section forum it would be a safe place for mama's to find helpful information. Posting it elsewhere often means negative comments from other's who think they know what's best and who often haven't been in the same situation as the OP.

I do not think that having a forum specifically for surgical births would make it appear that Mothering supports ALL c-sections but support is NEEDED for mamas that have had one for whatever reason and mama's that are facing the possibility.

[Drummer's Wife]

Originally Posted by Smithie

I totally disagree that there's no way to have a supportive subforum for medically indicated surgical birth without simultaneously condoning elective and institutionally mandated surgical birth. It's not like MDCers are not gifted with the powers of discernment and critical thought. Somehow, some way we have managed to welcome discussion and information-sharing about supplementation for mamas who need it without turning into a subsidiary of Enfamil.

We are being told, by mamas who have BTDT, that the current support thread is an insufficient resource. I think we should listen.

I completely agree with this

Originally Posted by Jessmcg

As a 3X c-sec mom and a somewhat active poster on the c-sec support thread, I would love to have a c-sec subforum. Those of us BTDT mommas can (and have many times) advise those preparing for a needed c-sec how to have the most natural/"normal" birth possible. What and how to ask the doctors and hospital can make or break you birth experience, trust me. I expect tha majority of posters here at MDC ar not looking forward to a c-sec, but to have a place to discuss the issues, fears, and happyness that surround them without have to search through a huge support thread with many different topics.

I would be an active practipant in a c-sec subforum!

ME too! I've also had 3 sections and what happened has happened, I believe that I would be a valuable resource and could help other's if there were just a specific spot for them instead of being scattered between B&B boards and Health & Healing. That being said I am not PRO c-section and wanted more than anything to have a natural vaginal birth... so it's not like the forums would be pushing unnecessary sections, just answering questions and concerns and providing support when needed

[gentlebirthmothr]

Same here on having this kind of forum and nothing else to add to it.

Thank you.

[mamameg]

Originally Posted by Vasmommy

In the rare event one "needs" a cesarean, posting in B&B is appropriate enough. Take the good advice, leave the criticisms of naysaying "know-it-alls" behind. If one is truly secure in their cesarean choice, they shouldn't have a problem doing this.

This "you made your bed, now lie in it" attitude is exactly why a c/s forum is necessary! These decisions are often NOT something a woman is truly okay with. These decisions are made in the potentially most vulnerable moments of a woman's life, under duress, in a state of exhaustion, with pressure from every "expert" in the room who says they just want the baby to be okay and the insinuation that going against their medical advice means you, the mother, does NOT want the baby to be okay. It can be something women sometimes struggle with for years afterwards and the negativity of those who just don't understand how these things happen can be too much to wade through.

I can absolutely own the fact that I made the decision to have a c/s and it probably wasn't medically necessary. But it was my first baby, I was under the care of an ob who I trusted at the time, I was two weeks post date, I was scared as hell, tired as all get out, my body had been lambasted by intervention after intervention, and in a moment of weakness, I caved. This is how it goes, all too often. And then these same hospitals have poilices that don't allow for VBAC's, so women are stuck with having more c/s.

It is ignorant and insenstive to put all the responsibility on the women having the c/s. This attitude denies that the medical system is manipulating women into having c/s, and then forcing them to have them repeatedly by taking away all other choices. And we as individuals are supposed to bear the brunt of that? I don't think so.

I come to MDC because it's philosophies most closely match my own. It seems unfair and slightly cruel to be told to go elsewhere for support re: my c/s becuase it doesn't match up with the ideal, regardless of the fact that I felt completely manipulated into it. Besides, a mainstream board is FULL of "well the baby is healthy and that's all that matters" comments. And if I hear that one more time, I might just totally lose it. It totally negates my feelings and experience. I'd rather go with no support than subject myself to that nonsense. But if MDC could provide a more enlightened, educated, sensitive mode of support via a discussion forum, well... that would be my ideal.

[LizD]

Originally Posted by Vasmommy

My point is that by making a forum specifically for cesarean, it appears supportful of ALL cesareans. And that's not what MDC is about.

In the rare event one "needs" a cesarean, posting in B&B is appropriate enough. Take the good advice, leave the criticisms of naysaying "know-it-alls" behind. If one is truly secure in their cesarean choice, they shouldn't have a problem doing this.

I'm sorry, this came across as so condescending I don't know what to say. Like most people who say that, I will continue. I hope to see a *welcoming* and *positive* cesarean forum. There was a magnificent article around called "Humanizing Cesarean Birth." I am interested in learning from others and sharing what I've learned, having attended many cesareans, both positive and not-so-positive.

If a bunch of people of like mind, who enjoy reading the same magazine and find *most* of the principles in their lives reflected therein, want to start a forum, I see no reason to disagree with them. If you don't like it, don't visit it. Why should a woman planning a "new agey" homebirth be thrust into an unplanned cesarean that can be all the more traumatic for having no preparations made? Why shouldn't she be able to discuss how still to retain the magic and fulfillment of birth euphoria- those topics are *not* available for discussion on most boards. And frankly, those are the most traumatic cesareans I have attended. I have also attended some terrific cesareans in which all the participants are high and spiritually charged and the glory and triumph of birth are clearly present.

Why shouldn't formula-feeding women find a place to discuss ways in which to enhance attachment, and the good things about breastfeeding, while they are still formula-feeding, without having to justify their choices ad nauseum? What about women here who breastfed some children and now formula feed?

I believe in natural family living and I support *every* woman's birth choices, whatever they are. I really don't think they need to justify themselves to anyone. The reasons behind their choices are none of my business. If someone asks me how to have a great cesarean, I'm not going to recommend she read homebirth books. I'm going to tell her. My sister-in-law asked me how to use her old breast pump three days postpartum. I didn't ask why, I told her. It turned out there was a life-threatening issue at stake. Whom would I have been serving to tell her she didn't need to be pumping or giving a bottle at three days postpartum?

I would like to see the forums *broadened* to welcome and respect the vast range of individual choice here. We are members of the community. The principles we value cannot be undermined by opening the discussion further, they can only be enhanced, and the community strengthened. It would also be a place where others, who might be turned away by the dogma and rigidity of a limited focus, can be exposed to wonderful information they might otherwise never have a chance to enjoy.

[MamaPear]

Originally Posted by mamameg

I'd to see a c/s forum! With the national c/s rate hovering around 30% , I would love to see MDC highlight the issue, making it easy for women to seek out information on how to avoid them, recovery from them, heal emotionally from them, and fight for change in the system that's responsible for them.

I completely agree!! There is a lot of emotional healing that goes along with recovering from a c/s and I don't think that is really supported in the general birth and beyond forum. The sad truth is that c/s happen in this country more than most would care to admit (especially here) and the moms who go through these surgical births NEED support too.

[BensMom]

When I was planning my homebirth turned unwanted, planned c/s, I was very lucky to have several IRL crunchy friends who had BTDT. They provided a great deal of support to me in considering all of my options, coming up with a c/s plan and also just as support to listen to my stress and emotional issues.

If I had not had that, I would not be doing as well as I am at 8w post c/s.

(And that's not to say I am doing great! I would love to talk to other moms about things like how I am reminded of my unwanted surgery every morning when I shower and run my fingers along my scar. How long will that last?)

If one is truly secure in their cesarean choice, they shouldn't have a problem doing this.

Very few of the c/s moms I have read about are secure in their "choice". More like being backed into a corner with very few options, trying to battle opposition from every angle, being told by everyone in their lives they are stupid for not just scheduling the surgery already. Yeah, no need for support there.... :

Anyway, I would really like to see a subforum. After this discussion, how can the mods not agree?