Birth & Beyond: C/S sub-forum? - Page 3

[eleven]

I'd like to toss a huge : to most of the posts on this thread. Once again, I wholeheartedly support this request and think a c/s subforum would be a tremendous resource. After my unexpected cesarean, I was very disappointed at the lack of discussion and information available here.

I couldn't imagine going to a mainstream board for cesarean support and information.

[all boys]

As a newbie who is due to have a csection in 7 weeks, I would love a c-s forum...a place where I know I can post with questions as support. Although in the perfect world I would not have to have a csection with this baby, there is no other options and I would welcome a place to talk to other moms....

[AllyRae]

Originally Posted by Vasmommy

In the rare event one "needs" a cesarean, posting in B&B is appropriate enough. Take the good advice, leave the criticisms of naysaying "know-it-alls" behind. If one is truly secure in their cesarean choice, they shouldn't have a problem doing this.

Well, that's awfully condescending... Why is there a homebirth forum then? If someone was truly secure in their choice, they shouldn't have a problem posting in B&B instead of a separate forum...that's pretty much along the lines as what you're saying. Yet, when you flip it around and substitute "home birth" for "c-birth" I think most people would not agree with your statement.

And in general, those who are on MDC but require a medically necessary c-section are NOT secure in that. I for one do not want to have a c-section. I would love to have another vaginal birth and I'm scared of a c-section. I'm scared of the surgery and more than that, I have no idea how to make it a positive, gentle, bonding experience for the baby because there is little positive support here for that. But, unless I want to bury another child, my babies will from now on need to be born by cesarian--a vaginal birth nearly took the life of my first son and it did take the life of my second. So, why should people like me, who cloth diaper, practice AP, homeschool, co-sleep, gentle discipline, nurse my toddler (through pregnancy and following the death of my 2nd son included) and desire the chance to bond at birth...why should I not have a place on here to discuss how to take steps to be able to have a bonding experience at a surgical birth? I did not choose a c-section for myself...my stupid body that can't birth a child safely chose that for me (and yes, I am well educated on birth but 2 births gone horribly wrong for the exact same reasons does teach me something too).

No, I am not secure in the fact that I have to have a c-section next time...it devistates me because my dream with my 2nd pregnancy was to have a homebirth. I just don't see the logic that people who require c-sections should be secure in that and therefore don't need support--getting c-section support on a mainstream board would be like getting support for low milk supply on a mainstream board. While they may be well meaning, it's not going to be the experience you're looking for if you're a NFP parent..

[wifeandmom]

Originally Posted by fyrflymommy

I guess I'm the lone dissenting voice here, but I think that having a csec support board would be akin to the discussion about having a formula feeding support board. Just as was discussed here about FF, Mothering knows that there are women who must FF for whatever reason. Just as there are mothers for whom having a csec is in their best interests for whatever reason. But same as FFing, there are other places to go to discuss it. I really do think that the general reasons for not having a FF board apply to not having a csec board.


fyrfly

When the day comes that up to 15% of women NEED to formula feed to save their own life and/or the life of their child, perhaps a FF 'support' board would be appropriate.

As it is, up to 30% of all women in the US today undergo a surgical birth, and even with the most *conservative* numbers, AT LEAST 5-10% of all women NEED to do so.

That is a large group of women, and they should not be forced to seek answers, suggestions, and/or support on a more 'mainstream' board to appease those who don't like this idea of a subforum designed specifically for those who are processing the details of a surgical birth or who are planning for a medically necessary surgical birth that encourages bonding, breastfeeding, etc right away.

There are MANY issues surrounding c-sections that apply to even 'crunchy' moms who have no other choice but to birth this way. The advice given HERE, by other 'crunchy' moms will be drastically different than the advice likely to be given on other more mainstream boards.

Is there really a fear that by adding a subforum for c-section moms, other women will flock to it, realizing suddenly that c-sections are the best way to birth in ALL circumstances?

[Smithie]

Mods? Amy input? Do you see now that there is a need for something beyond what MDC currently offers to mothers who have a surgical birth?

[OnTheFence]

Cesarean Goddess Weighs In

I wanted to weigh in here. In the past this has been considered, a sub forum for Cesarean Sections. Its something I personally have written and corresponded with Cynthia about.

I was once for a seperate forum, strictly to discuss cesarean sections but now I am not. The main reason for not wanting such a forum now is due to the judgement and harsh attitudes of some (few). Having a forum that is not for support, but left open to debate and critisism would divide the Mothering community. Unfortunately this venue is not the best for mothers considering a cesarean section, have had cesarean sections, or wish not to VBAC. It is not considered a birthing "choice", and some (very few) consider any cesarean unnecessary. When a woman opens up her cesarean birth story or reasons for cesarean birth or even her choice to birth that way in a atmosphere where judgement could be easily passed, or her life dissected is not healthy or good for her or for others that could gain valuable information from her experience.

When I have the time, my plans are to eventually have a Cesarean Goddess website but until that time I think posting on the Cesarean Support Thread is the best alternative in the Mothering Community to discuss cesarean births without judgement or dissection of a woman's choice/circumstance to have one. The key is to continue posting to the thread and keeping it at least on the front page of B&B so that new members can see they do have support here and also for thos that find themselves facing or have faced a cesarean birth can find valuable advice and information.

Sincerely,
Kim

[gentlebirthmothr]

Originally Posted by OnTheFence

I wanted to weigh in here. In the past this has been considered, a sub forum for Cesarean Sections. Its something I personally have written and corresponded with Cynthia about.

I was once for a seperate forum, strictly to discuss cesarean sections but now I am not. The main reason for not wanting such a forum now is due to the judgement and harsh attitudes of some (few). Having a forum that is not for support, but left open to debate and critisism would divide the Mothering community. Unfortunately this venue is not the best for mothers considering a cesarean section, have had cesarean sections, or wish not to VBAC. It is not considered a birthing "choice", and some (very few) consider any cesarean unnecessary. When a woman opens up her cesarean birth story or reasons for cesarean birth or even her choice to birth that way in a atmosphere where judgement could be easily passed, or her life dissected is not healthy or good for her or for others that could gain valuable information from her experience.

When I have the time, my plans are to eventually have a Cesarean Goddess website but until that time I think posting on the Cesarean Support Thread is the best alternative in the Mothering Community to discuss cesarean births without judgement or dissection of a woman's choice/circumstance to have one. The key is to continue posting to the thread and keeping it at least on the front page of B&B so that new members can see they do have support here and also for thos that find themselves facing or have faced a cesarean birth can find valuable advice and information.

Sincerely,
Kim

Kim,

Totally disagree with you on what said here. Don't have anything else to add to it.

Thank you.

[BensMom]

Originally Posted by OnTheFence

The main reason for not wanting such a forum now is due to the judgement and harsh attitudes of some (few). Having a forum that is not for support, but left open to debate and critisism would divide the Mothering community.

I see what you are saying, but would the benefits (as outlined in this thread) really be discarded because of a few bad apples? Heck, maybe those people who are so vehement about c/s would stand to learn more about the experience by reading the threads. I know I was fairly oblivious, until I met some mamas who had unwanted c/s and realized how painful it could be. And then I had my own unwanted c/s, so I really learned! And if people are being disrespectful, isnt that a job for the mods? That kind of disrespect can (and does) happen on any of the boards here.

[MamaPear]

I'm not sure I understand how having a sub forum for c-section would automatically cause criticizers to come in. First, read through the b/b forum, they're already there! I read a thread yesterday asking how to plan a gentle c-birth for a breech baby and the first poster instead urged the mother to try acupuncture first. That was NOT what the mom asked about at all!! I'm sorry that there are people who feel that c-sections are totally unnecessary, but for some of us, it's the only way we get to experience biological motherhood! Having a place where we can vent and talk and discuss and just explore our options would be a good thing! My c/s make me no less of a mother nor am I any less AP b/c of them. Yet, that is the attitude that seems to prevail in B/B. It's pretty hard for a mom who is already dealing with a less than perfect birth and being told that 'at least the baby is healthy' to take. Not only am I less of a woman b/c I can't birth a baby without surgery, but now I'm less of a mom b/c of it too. Nice.

I just don't see where this would be a bad thing? Perhaps it's b/c I'm facing my second c/s and am looking for the support and answers that a sub forum would provide that makes me biased. I just can't keep up with the c/s support thread! There are too many conversations going on in there! I think they need to be broken down and the c/s moms free to ask questions, vent, and just do whatever they need to do in order to heal and grow from their experience.

[ChattyCat]

A friend IRL asked me the other day a question about my birth preferences for this pregnancy. My response was "My preference is for a homebirth, but I'm having a c-section."

I didn't even think before the words were out of my mouth. It has taken me nearly 2 years to come to terms with my reality.

I am surrounded by crunchy people, and live a fairly, crunchy life (bf, cd, eat mostly organic, cosleep, ap, etc.). It is very difficult to find a place where those who are crunchy and had medically necessary csecs can find support. Mainstreamers don't think it's a big deal, and our crunchy friends want to disect our birth experiences to figure out what we did wrong. How can we not feel guilt and a sense of failure under these circumstances? We have no one to say 'I know you didn't want this for yourself, but you've done everything you could have. Let's make this as positive an experience as possible.' There are lots of things that go into planning for a positive (as crunchy as possible) surgical birth. Unfortunately, there aren't really any resources for those who find themselves in this position.

I really am tired of posting a question (or reading a new thread) about csec in the B&B forum, where someone just wants some info and guidance. Everytime you mention csec you have to give a disclaimer stating that your csec was medically necessary and please only support with the csec question at hand. Should this really be the case? This only alienates the active MDC members, who through no fault of their own had a medically necessary csec. This adds to the guilt many of us feel. I didn't choose a surgical birth. I really did everything I could to avoid it. I'm tired of having to justify it, when I just want support. I honestly believe that the constantly having to explain my birth (both IRL and online), when looking for post-csec support contributed to the length of time that it took me to process the experience.

There are many well-intentioned women who do not understand unless they have been through the experience. I was one of them. Prior to my ds's birth, I took my Bradley classes, practiced relaxation everyday, exercised, did Kegels, ate properly, etc. I was NOT going to have a csec. I knew that way too many women had them, and that most were unnecessary. I would not let myself be a victim. I couldn't believe how many of my (mainstream) friends had csecs and didn't even think twice about them. In pretty much every case, I thought I knew better, and if it had been me, I would have managed a vaginal birth in that instance. I had the same holier-than-thou attitude that many MDCers have towards me now. After having gone through ds's birth, I see how judgemental and condescending that attitude can be. It is often hurtful and painful to have to explain why you did what you did, when you were in the situation you were in.

Considering the large numbers of women who have csecs, and a good number of those are necessary (especially on MDC), I think a Cesarean Support and Questions sub-forum would be a fantastic addition to MDC. I don't think it takes away from MDC's natural living message. There could be a sticky at the top stating the purpose of the forum, which should include healing from a traumatic birth experience/unwanted surgical birth, planning for an unwanted, but necessary surgical birth, and should not include debate over whether an individual's birth experience was medically necessary.

[fyrflymommy]

Originally Posted by wifeandmom

When the day comes that up to 15% of women NEED to formula feed to save their own life and/or the life of their child, perhaps a FF 'support' board would be appropriate.

As it is, up to 30% of all women in the US today undergo a surgical birth, and even with the most *conservative* numbers, AT LEAST 5-10% of all women NEED to do so.

That is a large group of women, and they should not be forced to seek answers, suggestions, and/or support on a more 'mainstream' board to appease those who don't like this idea of a subforum designed specifically for those who are processing the details of a surgical birth or who are planning for a medically necessary surgical birth that encourages bonding, breastfeeding, etc right away.

There are MANY issues surrounding c-sections that apply to even 'crunchy' moms who have no other choice but to birth this way. The advice given HERE, by other 'crunchy' moms will be drastically different than the advice likely to be given on other more mainstream boards.

Is there really a fear that by adding a subforum for c-section moms, other women will flock to it, realizing suddenly that c-sections are the best way to birth in ALL circumstances?

Up to 15% of women probably DO have to FF. If you add up the 5-10% that's estimated to not be able to full bf for whatever reason, plus the babies w/ medical reasons, plus the moms who need to take medicines or who have cancers...I'd say the same amount of women that need to FF would be around the same amount that need a csec or close to it.

So...should we also start a FF support board? What about a circumcision support board for those who must circ for medical reasons, and for those whose religion encouragees it? Should we also start a hospital births board, for those who must birth in a hospital?

To your last question...yes. I think it would open a can of worms just a FF board would have.

The necessity arugments for csec board can be applied to a FF board.



fyrfly

[mmm0708]

9 months ago a c/s forum would have been tremendously helpful to me. C/S was not even mentioned in my birth plan, I didn't research anything about them before my delivery, etc. Unfortunately, I ended up having an emergency c/s. At the time I did what I had to do to keep myself and my baby safe. I will NEVER regret that decision. However, I was depressed about it for quite sometime. Sometimes I still am. If there would have been a forum for me to talk about my feelings, it may have helped me heal, emotionally, faster.

[LizD]

Originally Posted by mmm0708

9 months ago a c/s forum would have been tremendously helpful to me. C/S was not even mentioned in my birth plan, I didn't research anything about them before my delivery, etc. Unfortunately, I ended up having an emergency c/s. At the time I did what I had to do to keep myself and my baby safe. I will NEVER regret that decision. However, I was depressed about it for quite sometime. Sometimes I still am. If there would have been a forum for me to talk about my feelings, it may have helped me heal, emotionally, faster.

As with childbirth itself, education is the key. I planned my homebirth knowing what I would want to ask for in the event of hospital transfer and cesarean birth. I knew in my head which things I could continue to ask for and require and when I would simply let go to a true emergency. In the event of a cesarean, I would have been 100% secure because I would have known it was necessary, and still known enough to be an active participant in my care, which is what informed childbirth is all about. *That* is what makes for secure mother-infant attachment, not some idealized water birth at home.

In my opinion, and as a subscriber to the magazine for twelve years, I see a separate forum as exactly in line with Mothering's philosophy of attachment and informed parenting. Women who give birth by cesarean surgery need this support. If we make cesarean birth a more pleasant and fulfilling experience, the sense of loss can be completely minimized. My job as a doula is to make that birth experience terrific. I didn't choose the doc or hospital, and I've seen the "cascade of interventions." But my clients feel terrific about their births. I encouraged them literally to make the best of it, and they succeeded.

Incidentally on these boards saying your cesarean was medically necessary is not enough. Then they will trot out statistics that most doctors are quacks and if you'd only had a good midwife and planned a homebirth you wouldn't be in that situation now. I have even had some people tell me I am incorrect for calling it "Cesarean Birth;" they say women who have c-sections don't give birth.

Just as hospitals are trying to meet consumer demand for a gentler birth experience, if consumers undergoing surgical birthknew what to ask for the experience could be made better, even beautiful, for everyone who has to have it. Isn't the most important thing truly that a healthy mother and baby result? How best does this community help that to happen, regardless of the mode of delivery? When does a woman get the respect she deserves as someone who is capable of making her own medical and lifestyle decisions without the input of an online community? Why don't we *start* from the assumption that she knows what she is doing?

Why is it if a woman doesn't meet the ideal she gets no support?

[AnditheBee]

Originally Posted by LizD

In my opinion, and as a subscriber to the magazine for twelve years, I see a separate forum as exactly in line with Mothering's philosophy of attachment and informed parenting. Women who give birth by cesarean surgery need this support.

And they need it from like-minded people like the posters at MDC. From what I can see, "going to another board" is not really an option, because most other boards will not be places where people will understand why someone might be upset about having had a c/s, or wanting to avoid another--or even wanting to avoid one in the first place. MDC is a community for people who can understand these feelings because we share in common the uncommon view of birth as natural and not automatically "medical."

I admit I wasn't even thinking of it this way when I proposed the question. I (even as a woman having had an unwanted c/s) have learned a great deal by reading this thread. Thanks, ladies.

[AnditheBee]

Originally Posted by OnTheFence

I was once for a seperate forum, strictly to discuss cesarean sections but now I am not. The main reason for not wanting such a forum now is due to the judgement and harsh attitudes of some (few). Having a forum that is not for support, but left open to debate and critisism would divide the Mothering community. Unfortunately this venue is not the best for mothers considering a cesarean section, have had cesarean sections, or wish not to VBAC. It is not considered a birthing "choice", and some (very few) consider any cesarean unnecessary. When a woman opens up her cesarean birth story or reasons for cesarean birth or even her choice to birth that way in a atmosphere where judgement could be easily passed, or her life dissected is not healthy or good for her or for others that could gain valuable information from her experience.

This is why the forum would have to be moderated, and a sticky with guidelines and purpose posted at the top.

That said, however, I think this is a very revealing post, OnTheFence--revealing and highlighting the very same lack of support that most of the posters here have felt at MDC. This in itself is a big part of the problem, and one that I had hoped to mollify through the introduction of such a forum. I had hoped that giving these women a place to post their stories and questions without fear of attack would help in the healing process.

It is interesting, however, that you believe a c/s forum would specifically draw such negativity (since, frankly, people who have not BTDT would have no business posting in that forum anyway, unless they had helpful info on c/s avoidance or were doulas/MW's/etc. offering advice). The VBAC forum isn't bombarded with judgemental posts (though a few do sometimes pop up--it's unavoidable to have occasional negativity on a public board); are other forums like the Unassisted Birth forum peppered with comments by people who have no personal knowledge of or experience with UC? If so, perhaps the problem goes beyond this thread.

It is true that c/sec's bring a reactionary response from many natural-birth advocates, but that is exactly the heart of the problem for women who post at MDC, and exactly why MDC needs to provide a safe place for them to share their thoughts and seek info from other naturally-minded folks.

When I have the time, my plans are to eventually have a Cesarean Goddess website but until that time I think posting on the Cesarean Support Thread is the best alternative in the Mothering Community to discuss cesarean births without judgement or dissection of a woman's choice/circumstance to have one.

And if the c/s support thread doesn't tend to attract negativity, then I'm curious why you suppose a forum would? Not being contentious; I'm honestly wondering what the difference would be.

BTW, I hope you get that Cesarean Goddess website up and running. Sounds like a great idea! Even if we do manage to get a support forum here, such a website would still be invaluable to natural-thinking moms who have had c/s and those who want to avoid them! We can't have too much support, you know!

[OnTheFence]

Originally Posted by BensMom

I see what you are saying, but would the benefits (as outlined in this thread) really be discarded because of a few bad apples? Heck, maybe those people who are so vehement about c/s would stand to learn more about the experience by reading the threads. I know I was fairly oblivious, until I met some mamas who had unwanted c/s and realized how painful it could be. And then I had my own unwanted c/s, so I really learned! And if people are being disrespectful, isnt that a job for the mods? That kind of disrespect can (and does) happen on any of the boards here.

Let me say that my "hate" mail says differently. When you have gotten letters chastising your presence, advice, and even support of those who choose to have cesareans you tend to be guarded.

From what I got a few years ago, a Cesarean Sub Folder would not be for "support only". That Cesarean Sections go against the core of Motherings philosophy of birth, and therefor debate, questioning and judgement would take place in that kind of forum. Based on my experience here I agree.

Kim

[mamameg]

As much as I would like to see a c/s forum, I do see OnTheFence's point. A "support only" thread is given the respect of being support only (and moderated accordingly), and debate is not allowed. In a forum, it would pretty much be a free for all (except for UA violations). ALL MDC members are welcome in ALL forums, regardless of their experiences. For example, hospital birthers can post in the UC forum and debate the practice as much as they want, as long as they adhere to the UA. The same would go for a c/s board. Anyone could participate in the discussions and it could potentially open up a slew of very negative attacks.

I am still having a hard time reconciling this, though. I know MDC is against c/s on the whole, but this leads me to think... is the real reason MDC doesn't want it a philosophical one, or would it just be too much work to moderatet it and they can't be bothered?

[mamameg]

Oh, and OnTheFence, I'm sorry you have received so much negative feedback. I have read some of your posts on the subject and they really helped me clear up some of my own issues. I have ultimately decided against repeat c/s and am trying for a vbac with this upcoming birth, but I would not have been able to come to that conclusion with the peace of mind I did if I had not read your prespectives and experiences. You helped me get over some of my fears (of judgement, of failing, etc) so that I could make a rational decision based, rather than simply a reactionary one. Thank you so much for putting yourself out there. I really apprecaite your contributions.

[candiland]

The vast majority of women I meet believe their cesarean was necessary.

If we allow that misinformation to slip by unquestioned, we are complicit in this country's 30% cesarean rate.

It's not my job to say "Hmm, a doctor forcing you to push to the count of ten while lying flat on your back and then claimed you weren't making progress and that you're body doesn't work is probably WRONG." But it's also not Mothering's job to create a forum for every exception to every rule, ya know? If questioning the validity of so many women "needing" cesareans is seen as rude, hurtful, and unsupportive, then where do you draw the line? I've seen and heard, here on this board, a lot of women who simply believe more in the medical model of birth than in the midwifery model of birth. The c/s support forum would not - in fact, could not - distinguish those women who truly needed a cesarean from those who chose one out of fear, ignorance, and a general distrust of their bodies.

If we made subforums for every exception to every rule, not only would Mothering's message of natural birth, AP, and NFL be horribly diluted, but it would then be no different than many other parenting boards out there.

[cottonwood]

"When the day comes that up to 15% of women NEED to formula feed to save their own life and/or the life of their child, perhaps a FF 'support' board would be appropriate.

As it is, up to 30% of all women in the US today undergo a surgical birth, and even with the most *conservative* numbers, AT LEAST 5-10% of all women NEED to do so."

Depends on what you mean by "need". There is no evidence that a large number of these 5-15% are not due to iatrogenic or environmental causes, and quite a body of evidence that suggests that they are, if we take into account the known cause and effect of observation and monitoring of labor, not to mention all the routine interventions.