Spinoff from: Sheena's spanking story

[AntoninBeGonin]

Hi all,

I was thinking about the story Sheena related about watching a toddler spanked. I'm sure you've probably all read it. If not, the main point is as she watched the little guy get spanked, she told her kids that spanking is wrong. The mother of the kid become extremely upset and hostile, to the point of harrassment. I think situations like that should be used as learning experiences, and that includes if they happen to other people. After reading what Sheena went through I now know that in a similar situation my response will be to calmly walk up to the parent before the situation escalates out of hand and say something like, "I can see you're starting to feel really stressed. I'm happy to watch the kid(s) for a few moments if you'd like to step away and clear your head (get some fresh air, have a cup of coffee...)"

Of course this approach would not work for everyone, and I'm not saying it would. I am someone who can strike up a conversation with anybody. I have no problem talking to strangers.

baby woke up!

~Nay

[lovemybaby]

Good suggestion. I've tried that kind of approach too, I think it helps "defuse" situations. Invariably the help is refused, but the parent knows they're being watched. This is very important in stopping abusive behavior. I just cheerfully "butt in" and I've never been harrassed about it.

I think it also can help to say something nice to the child, or to say how cute or charming they are. I think when parents get upset over a child's behavior it is often because they "think" the behavior is bothering other adults. Show that it isn't bothering you by being kind and attentive to the child. I sometimes give them colorful stickers too, it seems to help by diverting attention to the stickers.

[AntoninBeGonin]

Originally Posted by lovemybaby

I sometimes give them colorful stickers too, it seems to help by diverting attention to the stickers.

That is a fantastic idea.

~Nay

[freestyler]

When I was reading the replies to her original post, I could not believe someone flamed her for speaking up. It was something like, "if you're intentionally saying it loud enough for someone to hear, then you're as guilty of harrassment as the woman herself. People that say things just to make themselves look superior are being awful, " I dunno, that response really shocked me. But it takes all kinds to make a world, right? I'm mis-quoting her, but anyway the idea was that the OP was being obnoxious by speaking up and deserved what she got. Gads. Unbelievable.

[Smithie]

If the situation is only in the threats/nasty comments stage and the kid hasn't been hit yet, I have had good results from engaging the mother in something completely outside her own situation. Once, I even pretended to be really frustrated/near tears with my slightly fussy young infant (I was standing behind the other mother in a line, so she didn't see me until I drew attention to myself). She and her daughter immediately stopped their negative interaction to pay attention to me and my ds. The mother empathized with my struggle, and the daughter started interacting with ds.

In my experience, expressing a negative judgement on the parent never works, if we are defining "works" as getting the parent to stop their abusive behavior.

[freestyler]

Yeh, that's true, expressing a negative judgement never works. Feeling judged just is awful, even moreso when the person doing the judging is someone who doesn't even know us at all....it just automatically sets me on the defensive. That said, spanking is brutality. I think I would have done the same thing as OP. And she wasn't yelling judgements at the woman, just stating her belief that spanking is wrong. Isn't the adage "take issue with the behavior, not the person?" But people who beat a child are unlikely to note the nuances. They just feel attacked and flip out. Ugh.

[Smithie]

Yeah, Sheena's situation seems like it was a no-win, in that nothing she could have legally done would have stopped the spanking. I feel like once the hitting has started, nothing but the "let me help" approach can possibly work, and it takes a lot of courage to do that. I have never done that. I hope I will be brave enough to do it the next time I'm in a situation that calls for it.

[lovemybaby]

I once stopped a woman from hitting her toddler. I walked up to her, a bit between her and the little girl, and said "people are not for hitting, and children are people too". She started a verbal battle with me, it was absolutely gut-wrenching, and my own little child was right there. She screamed and told me to mind my own business, she could raise her child how she wanted to and I could raise mine how I wanted. She even said it was illegal for me to tell her to stop hitting her child! She went berserk in a similar way that Sheena's attacker got verbally abusive. I finally said (about her toddler daughter) "She's not your slave!" She stopped yelling, I kept an eye on her, and she didn't hit her little girl again. Her older child watched the whole scene with amazement.

Another time I saw a man hitting a little boy on the playground. My daughter said I should talk to him (brave girl!) so I approached him (he had stopped hitting at that point) and said "Hi, what's your name?" he replied "Hi my name is Joe" and I then said "Joe, I saw you hitting your little boy, and you know, hitting a child is very bad for them" and he denied hitting the boy. He got a bit nasty but then went away. He didn't hit the boy again but he approached me a little later and challenged me again, denying he had hit the boy, where did I see him do it, etc. and I replied "I have 20-20 vision and I saw you hit him. Don't do it again. I've got a phone on me, and if you keep this up, I'm going to call the police on you." He went away.

People who hit babies and little children often are abusive to adults as well. It's good to remember that, and try not to take it personally. And they're usually angry and worked up and not inclined to pleasant conversations! I know it makes a real difference to speak up, and the children get the "helping witness" Alice Miller writes of. This is so important, it can change a child's life and stop them from continuing the cycle of violence. I'm always very glad to have spoken up.

I am haunted by memories of a little boy being hit by his mother, right in front of me, on the subway. She would whack him, sometimes on the head, and he never even whimpered. The train was full of people, and nobody stood up for that poor little boy. I never want to regret not speaking up for a child, ever again.

[AntoninBeGonin]

Originally Posted by lovemybaby

I once stopped a woman from hitting her toddler. I walked up to her, a bit between her and the little girl, and said "people are not for hitting, and children are people too". She started a verbal battle with me, it was absolutely gut-wrenching, and my own little child was right there. She screamed and told me to mind my own business, she could raise her child how she wanted to and I could raise mine how I wanted. She even said it was illegal for me to tell her to stop hitting her child! She went berserk in a similar way that Sheena's attacker got verbally abusive. I finally said (about her toddler daughter) "She's not your slave!" She stopped yelling, I kept an eye on her, and she didn't hit her little girl again. Her older child watched the whole scene with amazement.

You sound like an awesome person.

Originally Posted by lovemybaby

Another time I saw a man hitting a little boy on the playground. My daughter said I should talk to him (brave girl!) so I approached him (he had stopped hitting at that point) and said "Hi, what's your name?" he replied "Hi my name is Joe" and I then said "Joe, I saw you hitting your little boy, and you know, hitting a child is very bad for them" and he denied hitting the boy. He got a bit nasty but then went away. He didn't hit the boy again but he approached me a little later and challenged me again, denying he had hit the boy, where did I see him do it, etc. and I replied "I have 20-20 vision and I saw you hit him. Don't do it again. I've got a phone on me, and if you keep this up, I'm going to call the police on you." He went away.

Originally Posted by lovemybaby

People who hit babies and little children often are abusive to adults as well. It's good to remember that, and try not to take it personally. And they're usually angry and worked up and not inclined to pleasant conversations! I know it makes a real difference to speak up, and the children get the "helping witness" Alice Miller writes of. This is so important, it can change a child's life and stop them from continuing the cycle of violence. I'm always very glad to have spoken up.

Originally Posted by lovemybaby

I am haunted by memories of a little boy being hit by his mother, right in front of me, on the subway. She would whack him, sometimes on the head, and he never even whimpered. The train was full of people, and nobody stood up for that poor little boy. I never want to regret not speaking up for a child, ever again.

Aw, that is so sad. Isn't it amazing how profoundly things can affect us sometimes? I'm glad on behalf of all the children you've helped over the years.

~Nay

[lovemybaby]

Thanks AntoninBeGonin! I'm no hero, just a regular mom, I just couldn't live with myself if I didn't try to help a child if I could. Yes, sometimes events change our lives, painful events...that poor little boy, his mom punching him like a punching bag, his head bouncing back into position for the next blow...she kept it up for at least a couple minutes and was still hitting him when they got off the train...

I'll never hesitate again the way I did that day, trying ANYTHING is better than just sitting there

[bigsurmama]

Nothing will change with out a little discomfort. Hooray for all intereventions for the protection of children. Be bold and stepp in safely. check your surroundings, remember people that don't see striking a child as violent behavior are a bit hot headed.

[Smithie]

They certainly ARE hot-headed. That's why I don't care to antagonize them and risk them taking their "discomfort" out on their kids, TYVM.

Seriously, people. "Anything is better than doing nothing?" Really? Is that a universal truth? When you see the child take more abuse right in front of you, or when the parent hisses "just wait 'till we get home," is that still better than what would have happened if you didn't interfere?

I think that SOMETIMES direct intervention helps, and SOMETIMES it hurts, and that there's no such thing as a responsible intervention that doesn't include some serious thought about all possible outcomes of one's actions. I think indirect intervention, while not possible in all situations, is a much safer choice for the child who's being hit.

Some possibilities for indirect intervention in a situation where the kid is already being hit:

1) Drop your plate/tray/bag nearby. Act very upset.
2) Pretend to trip and fall nearby, maybe even jostling their table/stroller/bag to make sure you distract the spanker.
3) Ask your child to do something "naughtier" than the other kid is doing, then deal with it in a vigorous and distracting, but nonviolent manner. This is something you could work out with your child beforehand, it would help them feel empowered to help other kids as well.
4) Stage a fight with your dining/shopping companion, or a highly dramatic conversation on your cell phone.
5) If you are alone, interrupt the spanker to ask them if they've seen your missing child. Act really freaked to get their sympathy.
6) If the abuse is illegal, call the cops. I'm pretty sure hitting a kid in the head is illegal everywhere.

Bottom line: when you make it about the kid instead of about you, then you're putting the kid on the firing line, and they have no legal recourse. There are times and places for explicit GD education, and the moment of anger just isn't one of them unless it is with a person who knows and trust you.

Oh, and getting in between a parent and child is illegal unless the child is being assaulted according to the legal definition of assault. Not to mention, it's most most panic-inducing thing you could possibly do. I'm not a spanker, and I would totally lose control if a stranger put themselves between me and my child. I'm shocked that you consider that action to have been a good choice when you look back on it.

[lechepatito]

Smithie, I like your ideas for indirect intervention.

Originally Posted by Smithie

Oh, and getting in between a parent and child is illegal unless the child is being assaulted according to the legal definition of assault.

Really? How is that illegal? I've never heard that.

[ThinkBlu]

Nice thread.

I love the ideas about early intervention and I love the "let me help" approach for once in the heat of things. For whatever reason, that never occured to me.

Maybe it's just my defensive nature (which I battle with recognizing it's not a good thing) but I just can't imagine someone not taking offense to a critical word or action from a stranger and I can't imagine it doing any good. I kinda get the idea that you are advocating for the child, but the parent child bond is so strong, even in abusive situations. I've read that victims of child abuse almost always act very defensively of their abusers. (Note my parents were not abusive) I strongly suspect that as a child, if someone had been critical towards my parents in any way, that every fiber of my being would have jumped to their defense, even my intellect and emotions. Maybe it would be different if they were/had been abusers. Anyway, I really like the idea about offering to help, provided it's sincere, as while I can see where the spanker might be uncomfortable, I'm thinking they would not be on the defense.

[Smithie]

Elizabeth: I'm not a lawyer, but I know one on another board She's a fabulous pro-woman pro-child feminist type, and she tells me that the only way it's legal to physically prevent a parent/guardian from touching/holding/leaving with their kid is if there is a crime being commited against the child IN THAT MOMENT, and the authorities are immediately summoned to take charge of the situation. There are no such laws against getting between two adults when one is hitting the other. It's only kids who don't have a right to have others to defend them from violence.

And really, how else could the law work? I certainly am not prepared to give strangers the authority to put themselves in between me and my child because they don't like what I'm doing at the moment. In fact, I think that would push me over the edge into commiting assault against the intervening adult, because I would be so scared that they had violated a social taboo so egregiously. I would think they were crazy and dangerous.

[lovemybaby]

What I did with the woman hitting the toddler was legal. It was a crowded, noisy situation, the woman was not just hitting the little girl but had a vice-grip on her arm. I leaned in and spoke right in the hitter's ear "People are not for hitting, and children are people too". She didn't seem to hear me at first and kept roughing up the girl. So I leaned in again, spoke louder, and then she let go of the girl and she yelled at me but stopped hitting the girl.

Something that may help give you courage to stand up for a child is to remember that there are "Good Samaritan" laws in the US. If you act to save someone from injury, in the best way you know how, you have a strong legal defense should anyone ever complain about your manner of intervening.

I think Smithie's ideas could well work in certain situations, they sound creative and non-violent. But I wouldn't be comfortable with them, as they involve saying things that are untrue. I prefer to tell it like it is, and hearing the message that hitting is wrong is so important to the child being hit. That message could save their lives. It's what I would have wanted when I was a hit child myself.

Here are some articles on interventions I've found useful:

http://www.naturalchild.org/jan_hunt/intervention1.html
http://www.naturalchild.org/jan_hunt/intervention2.html
http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/ma...r_lansing.html
http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/ma..._lansing2.html
http://www.nospank.net/intervn.htm

[Trinitty]

I don't think I've ever seen a child hit in public, I'm in Ontario, Canada.

I would have spoken up in the situation Sheena was in.

I might have handled it differently, but, I would have said something..... though, I'm very careful about getting into arguements with people in public with my husband there, as he would feel compelled to "defend me" and it could escalate.

Anways, I really found those links helpful. Last year I heard a woman berating a seven yearold girl, she was being so mean and the little girl looked SO sad that I just wanted to say SOMETHING or do something to help the situation... I think I'll start carrying stickers, that might have helped in that situation, it might have helped the girl feel better and shut that woman up for a few minutes.

[allgirls]

Originally Posted by Trinitty

I don't think I've ever seen a child hit in public, I'm in Ontario, Canada.

I would have spoken up in the situation Sheena was in.

.

I am in Ontario...I have seen children spanked in public and in private~but that was where I used to live...where I live now...I never see it.

(my nephew, my niece...my former SIL is a huge spanker..she hit my nephew because he wanted food and she was busy on the computer talking to strangers on Paltalk. )

I have to say something. I can't not say something.... So it may be regional. I am pretty sure that it occurs less here because of the number of stories of public spanking I read on here.

My ex husband told me the reason we had so much trouble with my oldest DD was because we didn't spank her~yeah,right it had nothing to do with her father being and absent, alcholic, drug addicted dead beat :

I like Smithie's suggestions but I couldn't do it..I am not an actor..they would know it's staged.

Most people I know don't spank. and many are very gentle with their children.

[lechepatito]

Originally Posted by Smithie

Elizabeth: I'm not a lawyer, but I know one on another board She's a fabulous pro-woman pro-child feminist type, and she tells me that the only way it's legal to physically prevent a parent/guardian from touching/holding/leaving with their kid is if there is a crime being commited against the child IN THAT MOMENT, and the authorities are immediately summoned to take charge of the situation. There are no such laws against getting between two adults when one is hitting the other. It's only kids who don't have a right to have others to defend them from violence.

And really, how else could the law work? I certainly am not prepared to give strangers the authority to put themselves in between me and my child because they don't like what I'm doing at the moment. In fact, I think that would push me over the edge into commiting assault against the intervening adult, because I would be so scared that they had violated a social taboo so egregiously. I would think they were crazy and dangerous.

Thanks for clarifying! I agree that I would flip out if a stranger put themselves between me and my child, regardless of the circumstances.

[Smithie]

lovemybaby, I agree that what you did was totally legal, and it sounds like it worked according to my definition, because the hitting stopped and you took on the focus of the hitter's attention. I misunderstood your first post, I thought thought you physically prevented the mom from coming into contact with her child. As far as I have beeb able to figure out, THAT's the illegal part, not yelling or interrupting or even getting really close to the other adult.

And it's true, I am an actor so I feel comfortable playing a role in what I see as a good cause. It doesn't mean that I don't speak up frankly in other situations about GD, though. I just don't confront angry, violent people about it. I've never been in that situation with a kid who was old enough to really understand my anti-spanking words, though, and I can see how that might make the direct approach seem best.

Another indirect suggestion from an IRL friend who occaisionally has seizures: fake a seizure. They don't have to last long, and every eye in the place will be upon you and the spanker you're sitting next to. This seems pretty extreme, but sometimes the violence you witness is pretty extreme without being illegal, and heck, there are some places where you know that the cops are not going to help the kid even IF the violence is illegal.