Who here has NEVER punished? - Page 5

[nonconformnmom]

I realize the thread has gone past the toothbrushing thing, but I think it brings up a point that often gets lost in these discussions and that is that 1) the conflict is almost never really about the act of brushing their teeth on the part of the toddler and 2) many of us are dealing with more than one child and so the standing and waiting strategy, for example, just isn't practical. I see so often on threads that solutions are posed that don't take into account families who are trying to provide adequate attention to two or more children at the time the "misbehavior" occurs.

MamaE wrote:Yes, the next step after brushing in our bedtime routine is books, and if the teeth are not brushed, the books cannot be read. I have never once had to follow through with this. I deliver this alternative to my daughter in a matter-of-fact tone and it isn't something I have to do every night. I just can't believe I'm the only mother here with a 2.5 y.o. who hasn't had to coerce her child (albeit gently) to brush teeth.

FWIW we do the exact same thing, here. To me, what is really going on is this: my 3 yo toddler is using intentional non-cooperation as a strategy to delay going to bed. Making toothbrushing fun has been tried but if her ultimate goal is really to take up as much time as possible during the toothbrushing stage, she can delay going to bed even though she is too tired to wake up on time in the mornings and has to be woken up and is then grumpy for a couple of hours every morning. Our bedtime routine is done simultaneously with 3 yo dd and 1 yo dd. So while one parent is helping with pajamas and brushing teeth with one child, the other is doing it with the other child, and then we convene on the sofa for bedtime story, all together.

If one child refuses to do her part in the bedtime routine (put on pajamas or brush teeth), they are not allowed to progress to the next step of the routine. It so happens that the step after brushing teeth is gathering together to read a story. If she hasn't brushed, she misses storytime. After story, little sister goes to bed and she needs to climb into bed too or risk waking her little sister up by going in later (plus she needs to be in bed by 8:30 or she is impossible to wake up and get ready for the day the next morning).

So, to sum up, to me it's everyone contributes their part to the task of getting ready for bed. It's not about punishing or threatening or consequences at all; it's about 'you do your part and I'll do mine'.

[rumi]

(empathicdiscipline.com).

didnt open for me.
is the URL right?

[maya44]

Originally Posted by nonconformnmom

I realize the thread has gone past the toothbrushing thing, but I think it brings up a point that often gets lost in these discussions and that is that .... many of us are dealing with more than one child and so the standing and waiting strategy, for example, just isn't practical. I see so often on threads that solutions are posed that don't take into account families who are trying to provide adequate attention to two or more children at the time the "misbehavior" occurs..

I am not sure you are correct. I am one of the biggest proponents of "stand and wait" here and I have THREE dd's. From ages 12 to 9 and have done this most of their lives.

[writermommy]

Originally Posted by maya44

I am not sure you are correct. I am one of the biggest proponents of "stand and wait" here and I have THREE dd's. From ages 12 to 9 and have done this most of their lives.

I also have 3 dds (ages 3 to 7) and am pregnant with baby #4. We do the stand and wait approach and it works for us too.

[nonconformnmom]

Well actually, I have 3 dd's too! I just didn't mention the third one. (Maybe we should start a 3 girls tribe, lol!) I'm glad it works; I've tried it and, frankly, I just get tired of waiting (by the kids' bedtime, I am WORN.OUT.) So I should correct myself and say that it doesn't work for me.

So, what do you do with the other two dds while standing and waiting for the one who isn't doing whatever? Do they stand and wait, too?

[MissRubyandKen]

First I want to say I value the opinions and insight expressed here. I have learned so much in the short time I've been reading here. I reread my earlier post and wondered if the tone might come across way different than the one I was thinking in when I wrote it.

Pat, I have found many of your posts insightful and hepful, thus my asking questions about your post, to better understand your views, not as a calling you out type thing. Hope it didn't come across that way.

And as far as asking about teens- this is because I totally see how not punishing little kids nor teens is a good idea. I would not think punishing a teen for making a harmful to life threatening decision would be helpful in any way. I just can not see what would be the helpful, respectful thing to do either. I can not see what the equivalent to scooping a small child up in a life threatening situation would be with a teen, and whether or not their dissent at the time would stop me from intervening in some way. Any thoughts on this?

[johub]

Originally Posted by MissRubyandKen

First I want to say I value the opinions and insight expressed here. I have learned so much in the short time I've been reading here. I reread my earlier post and wondered if the tone might come across way different than the one I was thinking in when I wrote it.

Pat, I have found many of your posts insightful and hepful, thus my asking questions about your post, to better understand your views, not as a calling you out type thing. Hope it didn't come across that way.

And as far as asking about teens- this is because I totally see how not punishing little kids nor teens is a good idea. I would not think punishing a teen for making a harmful to life threatening decision would be helpful in any way. I just can not see what would be the helpful, respectful thing to do either. I can not see what the equivalent to scooping a small child up in a life threatening situation would be with a teen, and whether or not their dissent at the time would stop me from intervening in some way. Any thoughts on this?

Please allow me to answer this. I have a 13 year old daughter who has had a lot of freedom and I would consult her and discuss things with her and provide information and hope she made the right choice. I thought that by avoiding an adversarial relationship with her it would make her unlikely to participate in rebellious activity just to spite me.
Turns out this was not effective prevention and my dd really started spiraling out of control. At first I discussed her problems with her and she would look at me in the eye and agree how important honesty is and why it is reasonable that I know where she is at all times and that there are risks and all of that. But then she would go out and do whatever he friends thought was cool with complete disregard of her own frontal lobe and ability to reason. She started smoking and failing classes. THis all came to an end when she got caught shoplifting and I realized that Natural consequences werent enough because when it comes down to it, I am legally responsible for her and the state and the courts will hole ME and not her responsible for her actions. THe same is true for the school and attendance etc. . . The store called me in and released her to me if I signed something agreeing to a small civil fine. The other option was to have them callt he police, which would have been the "natural consequence" but I would have been responsible still and just have had to pay MORE legal fees etc. . . There was no winning. So before signing the paper I asked her what I should do and that by signing I am taking responsibiliy for her behavior from now on.
That wasnt the end of it though because after she had earned the money back she was still manipulative and dishonest and would lie about where she was, and was basically risking her life.
As a result the "pulling her in from the street" result has been that she no longer has any trust. Which basically is to her the same as being "grounded" but I am not doing this to "punish" her but to protect her from herself.
TO her I am sure it looks the same. But right now I have to keep her alive and help prevent her from making mistakes where the "natural consequences" stay with her forever. And if that means I have to disrespect her. I HATE it. But that is what I am going to do.
I am currently reading "Hold On to your Kids" and oh how I had wished I had read this instead of "Positive Discipline for Teens" by Jane Nelson.
She would have me just visiting my dd in jail and bringing her cookies.
"Hold On to your Kids" is the best parenting book I have yet read which really deals with dangerous Teenage behavior (rather than glossing over it as a phase that probably wont do any harm, or worse, making the assumption that it just doesnt happen when parents are loving and open etc. . .)
Joline

[writermommy]

Originally Posted by nonconformnmom

Well actually, I have 3 dd's too! I just didn't mention the third one. (Maybe we should start a 3 girls tribe, lol!) I'm glad it works; I've tried it and, frankly, I just get tired of waiting (by the kids' bedtime, I am WORN.OUT.) So I should correct myself and say that it doesn't work for me.

So, what do you do with the other two dds while standing and waiting for the one who isn't doing whatever? Do they stand and wait, too?

Mine don't wait with us. THey continue their routine: going to the bathroom, getting a drink of water, picking out stories for bed time, finding whatever they will sleep with (bear, doll, etc) while I wait with the one who is reluctant to brush. It really doesn't take too long. By the time the other two are finished what they are doing, we are all usually ready.

[maya44]

:

Originally Posted by writermommy

Mine don't wait with us. THey continue their routine: going to the bathroom, getting a drink of water, picking out stories for bed time, finding whatever they will sleep with (bear, doll, etc) while I wait with the one who is reluctant to brush. It really doesn't take too long. By the time the other two are finished what they are doing, we are all usually ready.

[Dal]

Never punished and have zero intention of doing so.

I find some of the accounts here of what supposedly does and does not count as a punishment quite... um... creative. Probably no one is doing that deliberately, but I think it's better to flesh out one's parenting philosophy so that a punishment is a punishment (noting that there are various forms of this) and then, if one chooses to use them, to have a solid defense for that rather than to chop symantics and make it sound as though one is anti-punishment when this is not the case. Seems the more consistent and honest approach and if punishments are truly sometimes o.k., there surely there is nothing wrong with admitting that. (I also found some posts in which what is clearly not a punishment was thought to be such. For me it's helpful to be clear on this type of thing, especially since my goal is to not punish Simon.)

To me a natural consequence is being cold if out in the cold and not wanting to wear a coat. Some of the suggested variants are a looong shot from that. I don't use the term "natural consequences" to explain anything that we do. To use it implies to me that I want for those situations to occur -- as indicating that it's a method of discipline that I use entails that I mean for it to be a learning tool .

From the descriptions given by some, I think that "logical consequences" is an epithet for "related punishments."

Joline, shoplifting is a very common thing for teenagers to do. I did it. My parents just ignored it (as they ignored me), but the whole experience was of course humiliating. Even if I hadn't gotten caught (which I did twice for maybe 15 or so shopliftings), well... I am 100% certain that I would have grown out of it, just as I grew out of other foolish teenage things that I did (like driving down an isolated road as fast as my parent's car would go -- I was going so fast that the car was shaking. It's completely freaky to think about this now). I grew out of shoplifting before many of my friends did. Several of them were still doing it for kicks up to or even after their 18th birthdays. I stopped when I was maybe 15 or so. We were all decent kids and we've all turned out to be well-functioning happy adults. We had money in our pockets. Shoplifting was just a twisted small town way of getting kicks. While I don't appreciate that I was ignored, I do appreciate that I wasn't further humiliated about the experience by my parents. Punishing me would not have helped. None of the few punishments that were given to me had any affect whatsoeve, they just made more manipulative and better at lying.

Back to the stealing... my parents asked what happened (the store had called them) and I made up a bogus story about the items falling into my oversized pockets. Whatever. Of course they saw through that, but they just let it go. Same thing happened when I came home drunk. Just want to say that from what you say... your daughter certainly doesn't sound like she's destined for jail if you do not punish her. I'm doing very well and am an "upstanding citizen" as far as following the laws and whatnot goes (and hopefully otherwise too). I just needed to grow up. Oh... and the school situation for me was HORRID. Me and public schools are a crap mix. If your daughter isn't doing well in school, perhaps the same is true of her and she'd do better in an alternative arrangement? I just don't see how treating her as completely trustless is going to help her to deal with whatever is going on with her life that is causing her to act like a teenager. I don't see that as helping her to build her sense of self-worth and feelings of self-competence, and see that as so extremely important in the teen years (as always, but especially in the early years and the teen years). Just my 2 cents. I'd also suspect that her peer group has a major impact to play in how she's acting. Is there a friendly way to intervene with them as well?

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Originally Posted by Dal

I find some of the accounts here of what supposedly does and does not count as a punishment quite... um... creative.

I feel that this is how it is for me sometimes...

Originally Posted by Dal

Probably no one is doing that deliberately, but I think it's better to flesh out one's parenting philosophy so that a punishment is a punishment (noting that there are various forms of this) and then, if one chooses to use them, to have a solid defense for that rather than to chop symantics and make it sound as though one is anti-punishment when this is not the case. Seems the more consistent and honest approach and if punishments are truly sometimes o.k., there surely there is nothing wrong with admitting that. (I also found some posts in which what is clearly not a punishment was thought to be such. For me it's helpful to be clear on this type of thing, especially since my goal is to not punish Simon.)

And I agree with you completely here ~ totally. But, (and I can only speak for myself) I find it very difficult to get clear. Part of it is probably because I over think some things but part of it is because I'm afraid I'm a manipulative person. There I said it.

I don't think of semantics because I'm trying to make myself non-punitive. I think about it because it seems that way...such subtle differences that I still have no idea if they're significant.

I have this problem with other people as well...it's not just a parenting thing. When interactions get intense I tend to get confused. Sometimes I think I was manipulative but then I remind myself that my intentions were good. Other times, I'm totally straight with someone and that feels wrong.

[Dal]

IdentityCrisisMom, I agree that there is a lot of subtlety. Right or wrong, I was left with the impression that some (though I have no one in particular in mind) haven't given the matter much thought, and so they ended up thinking that they are punitive when there isn't much reason to think of what they do as such. I suggested trying to work out an account of what is and isn't punitive because it would suck to want to be non-punitive but feel that one wasn't living up to this when one actually is... and likewise... it would be helpful to deciding how to parent (and how not to parent). It could be that I'm missing something and there was more thought to whatever it is that made me say that than I suspected (can't even remember what gave me that impression).

I definitely don't have all of the answers; I still have a lot of thinking to do on this and I'm sure it will continue to evolve.

Hugs to everyone!

[johub]

Originally Posted by Dal

Joline, shoplifting is a very common thing for teenagers to do. I did it. My parents just ignored it (as they ignored me), but the whole experience was of course humiliating. Even if I hadn't gotten caught (which I did twice for maybe 15 or so shopliftings), well... I am 100% certain that I would have grown out of it, just as I grew out of other foolish teenage things that I did (like driving down an isolated road as fast as my parent's car would go -- I was going so fast that the car was shaking. It's completely freaky to think about this now). I grew out of shoplifting before many of my friends did. Several of them were still doing it for kicks up to or even after their 18th birthdays. I stopped when I was maybe 15 or so. We were all decent kids and we've all turned out to be well-functioning happy adults. We had money in our pockets. Shoplifting was just a twisted small town way of getting kicks. While I don't appreciate that I was ignored, I do appreciate that I wasn't further humiliated about the experience by my parents. Punishing me would not have helped. None of the few punishments that were given to me had any affect whatsoeve, they just made more manipulative and better at lying.

Back to the stealing... my parents asked what happened (the store had called them) and I made up a bogus story about the items falling into my oversized pockets. Whatever. Of course they saw through that, but they just let it go. Same thing happened when I came home drunk. Just want to say that from what you say... your daughter certainly doesn't sound like she's destined for jail if you do not punish her. I'm doing very well and am an "upstanding citizen" as far as following the laws and whatnot goes (and hopefully otherwise too). I just needed to grow up. Oh... and the school situation for me was HORRID. Me and public schools are a crap mix. If your daughter isn't doing well in school, perhaps the same is true of her and she'd do better in an alternative arrangement? I just don't see how treating her as completely trustless is going to help her to deal with whatever is going on with her life that is causing her to act like a teenager. I don't see that as helping her to build her sense of self-worth and feelings of self-competence, and see that as so extremely important in the teen years (as always, but especially in the early years and the teen years). Just my 2 cents. I'd also suspect that her peer group has a major impact to play in how she's acting. Is there a friendly way to intervene with them as well?

I just wanted to point out that the shoplifting is only one symptom of my daughters problem. Her loss of trust was only at the time related to going to retail stores.
What REALLY lost trust was repeatedly lying about where she was and staying out all night when she was supposed to be spending the night at a friends staying IN.
I am confident that my daughter would "outgrow" shoplifting or whatever. But that is not my goal. I have to protect her and keep her whole and keep her from having consequences that could ruin her life forever. So like the 2 year old who will someday also learn not to run out into the street. In the moment you cant really wait for that to happen. You have to protect them NOW.
My daughter has no trust because I cannot trust that when she says "I will be at This friends house" that she will actually BE there. OR even with that friend. This is not a one time thing. This actually happenned one day, we discussed it. She gave me the whole "I feel so bad about lying I will never do it again" shpiel. And did it WORSE less than 24 hours later.
I just want to clarify that just because I did not post the full range of difficulties that I face with my daughter does not mean they are nearly as simple as they appear from a single shoplifting incident.
Punishing is not intended to "help teach her a lesson"
I agree that that does NOT Help. HOwever. If she is not capable of making decisions when unsupervised, she will have to learn those skills before she gets the chance again. If she cannot be trusted to tell the truth, then her word will no longer be enough. And if she is looking to her friends instead of her parents for cues on what is and is not acceptable, appropriate behavior andwhat her values are, then she will need plenty of time apart from them and plenty of time rebonding with her parents and her family.
I dont care if shoplifting and staying out all night and lying and focusing on peers to the exclusion of family are "normal" . And I dont care if she will grow out of them. These things put her life and future in danger.
Like a toddler running into the street, I have to try to stop her.

ETA, I wanted to address this separately

I don't see that as helping her to build her sense of self-worth and feelings of self-competence, and see that as so extremely important in the teen years (as always, but especially in the early years and the teen years). Just my 2 cents. I'd also suspect that her peer group has a major impact to play in how she's acting. Is there a friendly way to intervene with them as well?

The way it helps her build her sense of self worth is to remove from her the influences which potentially damage her self worth, and giving her freedom from those influences to explore her own concept of her self rather than relying on how her peer group defines her.
The same is true for feelings of self-competence. As long as she is following her peers blindly and is not choosing her actions from her own solid understanding of her self, the less self competent she is going to become. Her peers do not have unconditional love or acceptance for her. But we do.


And yes, her peer group is the major influence, and I only wish I new 5 or 10 years ago how dangerous this could be so I could have taken action in prevention rather than trying to heal the rift it has caused.

[writermommy]

The teenage years are so hard and you are doing a good job! We went through teenage hell with my stepdaughter. It does get better. I remember telling her in 11th grade that she was turning human again! Her mother kicked her out at 15 because of her behavior, failing, etc. I said she could live with us on the condition she went through counseling. I was lucky to find a GREAT counselor to help us with her. She told us we had to make her accept responsibilty for her actions. We met with her teachers regularly and watched her as closely as we did her preschoolers. She began to turn around in 11th grade and went from failing/summer school, sneaking out and being generally untrustworthy to achieving honor roll the last two years of high school and graduating on time. I remember telling her once that she would graduate, even if it killed both of us! She now tells people that she never would have finished school if it wasn't for my persistance and that I've been more of a "real mom" to her than her real mother ever was. Eventually, she will realize that what you do comes from love and she will appreciate it.
Hang in there mama!

[johub]

Originally Posted by writermommy

The teenage years are so hard and you are doing a good job! We went through teenage hell with my stepdaughter. It does get better. I remember telling her in 11th grade that she was turning human again! Her mother kicked her out at 15 because of her behavior, failing, etc. I said she could live with us on the condition she went through counseling. I was lucky to find a GREAT counselor to help us with her. She told us we had to make her accept responsibilty for her actions. We met with her teachers regularly and watched her as closely as we did her preschoolers. She began to turn around in 11th grade and went from failing/summer school, sneaking out and being generally untrustworthy to achieving honor roll the last two years of high school and graduating on time. I remember telling her once that she would graduate, even if it killed both of us! She now tells people that she never would have finished school if it wasn't for my persistance and that I've been more of a "real mom" to her than her real mother ever was. Eventually, she will realize that what you do comes from love and she will appreciate it.
Hang in there mama!

Thank you so much! Your post really made me cry!
It would be so much easier right now to give up on her and give her what she wants and what she thinks will make her happy (unlimited freedom and me off her back). But I really feel that she is in terrible danger so much so that I have to face her anger and resistance to my guidance with the hope that some day she will look back and think "Thank GOD mom was around to help me! What was I thinking back then!"
Your post was such a thoughtful pick me up! Thanks and thanks again.
Joline

[oceanbaby]

Hmm, do I punish? I don't think so, but it probably depends on who you ask. Ask most of the mainstream world, and they would say that no, I do not punish. But here on the GD boards? Many would probably consider it punishment.

Like earlier today. I was putting away laundry and ds1 was watching a video. Ds2 apparently tried to grab the remote from ds1, so ds1 hit him in the back with it. This is very unlike ds1, no one hits in this house, which I told him. I also then turned off the tv. To me, that's what happens when you act badly while watching tv. But I know some here consider that punishment.

But a 17 month old? Would never even cross my mind. My youngest is 18 months, and there is no discipline at all. I mean, if he continues to hit my face while nursing, we stop nursing. If he keeps throwing the trains, I remove the trains so no one gets hurt. But it's done with distraction and redirection, not with the intent to punish.

[MamaE]

Originally Posted by Dal

I find some of the accounts here of what supposedly does and does not count as a punishment quite... um... creative. Probably no one is doing that deliberately, but I think it's better to flesh out one's parenting philosophy so that a punishment is a punishment (noting that there are various forms of this) and then, if one chooses to use them, to have a solid defense for that rather than to chop symantics and make it sound as though one is anti-punishment when this is not the case.

Dal, I assume you didn't mean this part of your post to come off sounding as judgmental and presumptuous as it did. I think most of the mothers here have put a lot of thought into their parenting. The fact that we don't agree on definitions doesn't mean that those of us who dissent from the narrow view of GD espoused by one contingent here at MDC haven't thought about our parenting.

That said, I still do not think of myself as a punitive parent. In fact, I think I could successfully argue that choosing not to brush your child's teeth in order to avoid conflict is failing to protect your child from the natural consequences of tooth decay. This failure to protect a child is, in my book, a form of punishment. I will reiterate, when the health and welfare of my child is at risk, I consider it my duty to step in. I do so as gently as possible. For those that make the argument that their child has the final say with his/her body... I am not familiar with any young children who are well-versed in the ramifications of tooth decay. With my layman's understanding of child development, children are not even capable of this extended line of reasoning. Are you saying you do not protect your child from things he/she wants but are not in his/her best interests? I thought that was the definition of my responsibility as a parent, or at least, this is how I have defined my role as a parent, to teach and to guide when my child lacks the ability or maturity to make safe and sound choices.

My mission here at MDC is to support and be supported. I hope I haven't crossed that line with this post. I don't see a place for judgment here at MDC and I think it's unfortunate for all of us when a thread, any thread, is reduced to people scrambling to prove their GDness. I'm sorry I got caught up in that. I am trying to be comfortable with and confident in my own parenting with the ultimate goal of raising a healthy, happy, well-rounded, loving child. If we can reduce it that far, isn't that all any of us wants? We all know there is no award for being the most GD/AP/CLW/TCS/etc... (as if we could even define that). The greatest reward any of us will ever receive is for our child to become a successful adult (in whatever manner we choose to define that term).