Abuse and Consequence (Intent of thread restated in post #8) - Page 5

[Magella]

Originally Posted by ThinkBlu

please focus on responding to whether or not you think it offensive to use terms such as abuse and violence in respect to non-GD parenting choices,

I would rather stick to pointing out the violence of certain actions and words, how those actions harm self and others. And yes, sometimes it will offend. But sometimes, handled tactfully, it doesn't. I think using the term "abuse" or "violence" offends and puts people on the defensive, it doesn't help and the same point can be made while avoiding the use of those particular words.

Originally Posted by ThinkBlu

whether you think it more often good or bad to use terms like abuse and violent when discussing non-GD parenting, i.e, does it typically wake people up or typically shut them down,

I think the term "abuse" and "violence" with regard to widespread and socially accepted parenting practices shuts people down. These are words that are, IMO, unlikely to result in someone hearing my POV nevermind being open to it or changing their own mind/practices. I don't think they wake people up, or jolt them into epiphany about their actions, and I think the point can be made without them provided we take the time and care to do so-and are willing to hear the other person, to understand them, to see their humanity. This can be difficult though. I am about to use the term "violent", and I think there's a good chance it will offend people and I'm torn about using it but frankly I can't at the moment think of another way to say it....and if anyone can handle it and remain open, MDC moms can.

Originally Posted by ThinkBlu

and if you strive to present GD in a non-offensive and non-judgemental way, what do you think the effect of other GDers not doing so (in *your* opinion) has on the overall perception of GD and the receptability of the GD message?

(Donning flame proof suit...) I think that in discussing the parenting choices of others, it is easy to become just as violent as the violent acts one is discussing and criticizing-through a judgmental approach and through words and through viewing people as merely the sum of their faults rather than seeing their full humanity ("Can you believe what she did?! She's cruel, and she's stupid. That is so abusive. Don't parents read books and educate themselves? She isn't trying hard enough. She's lazy and selfish."). Violence occurs in word, in thought, and in deed-not just physical acts of aggression and harm. I see this often and I feel very sad when I see it. I have been guilty of it myself. I am uncomfortable with simply labeling certain acts as violent or abusive and making this openly clear to all around me. I am uncomfortable with this simply because it does not actually address the root of the problem, the reasons people behave in violent ways, and thus does not lead to much in the way of change. We can address the violence in parenting on an individual level, and I think this will help when done with compassion (not wet-noodle approval, but with true concern for the welfare of everyone involved), but it is not just an individual problem-it is also a societal problem that also needs to be addressed broadly. The violence we see in parenting reflects our society's values regarding children and the fact that our society in general does not value children, but merely pays lip service to valuing children. The violence we see in parenting also reflects the violent nature of our society in general. And one cannot end violence with violence, not even with the violence of word or thought. (Stepping off soapbox, flame away )

[umami_mommy]

Originally Posted by ThinkBlu

but I was trying to determine if those same persons could also entertain that presenting the message in that way might do harm to the cause of GD.

why not just say that then?

i'm mystified by the presentation of this issue in this way.

why not just come out and say "i feel really offended by the way the message of gentle discipline is sometimes presented in this forum."

what is it you are wanting instead? maybe if you state that, it would be clear what the point of this thread is rather than people just fighting about spanking being abuse or not.

i think offering threads like this just encourgages the kind of exchanges you are saying offends you.

just my .02.

[umami_mommy]

Ot

famousmockngbrd,

i love your sig quote, it cracks me up every time i see it.

[aira]

Originally Posted by honeybeedreams

i think offering threads like this just encourgages the kind of exchanges you are saying offends you.

Honeybeedreams, thank you for saying that.

I was coming here to post something similar. Last night I was tired and hanging out online and really got sucked into this weird discussion - totally feeling like I was on mainstream.com. I woke up this morning with a fresher brain and am horrified that this discussion is taking place on MDC!!!

Why are we even exploring the question of whether spanking is abusive????

Did we forget about the stickies at the top of the forum?? It's a given in these parts that all hitting of all children is abuse.

Now if the OP wants to talk about the potential value of sugar-coating the facts to avoid offending spankers, that's one thing. But the turn this has taken is shocking to me.

[*LoveBugMama*]

Do I think it is offensive to use the words abuse and violence when talking about nonGDparents?

That very much depends. Are we talking about parents that shame theirs kids? Do they use timeout? Do they yell? Do they use consecuences I would never use?

Or, do they hit their child? Maybe even with an object? Maybe even in public?

If tthe first is the case,then yes, I think it can be offensive.

If it is the latter, then no. To tell a person who is hitting a child that hitting is abuse is NOT offensive in my book. It is the truth. And, I am fortunate enough to be living in a country where it also is illegal to hit a child. So here most people will actually agreee with me that hitting is abuse/violence.

There are different degrees of violence. A spanking is abuse, beating the crap out of a child so it bleeds is worse abuse. Swatting a childs bottom is violence, breaking a childs leg because you threw the child across the room is even worse violence.

[umami_mommy]

Originally Posted by CrunchyTamara

Do I think it is offensive to use the words abuse and violence when talking about nonGDparents?

That very much depends. Are we talking about parents that shame theirs kids? Do they use timeout? Do they yell? Do they use consecuences I would never use?

Or, do they hit their child? Maybe even with an object? Maybe even in public?

If tthe first is the case,then yes, I think it can be offensive.

If it is the latter, then no. To tell a person who is hitting a child that hitting is abuse is NOT offensive in my book. It is the truth. And, I am fortunate enough to be living in a country where it also is illegal to hit a child. So here most people will actually agreee with me that hitting is abuse/violence.

There are different degrees of violence. A spanking is abuse, beating the crap out of a child so it bleeds is worse abuse. Swatting a childs bottom is violence, breaking a childs leg because you threw the child across the room is even worse violence.

umm, yeah, but what's your point? i must be missing it.

i find it interesting though that research suggests that children are more emotionally damaged in the long term by timeouts than spanking (straightforward spanking on the rump).

so if we follow the idea of "worse" abuse, maybe we at MDC should be advocating spanking over timeouts, since children are less damaged by it in the long run. :

i just don't get the "worse" abuse line of thinking... what is the point of ranking abuses?

[aira]

Originally Posted by honeybeedreams

i just don't get the "worse" abuse line of thinking... what is the point of ranking abuses?

No kidding!

********
Editing to add that the following is meant to agree with HBD, not directed toward her!! (I reread it and it's worded as if I'm arguing against her point that I very much agree with...)
********

As if anyone could know the extent of the harm done to another person... If someone has a low threshhold and gets badly effected by subtle shaming and such, who are you to say that they were not? Are you suggesting that they are weak beacuse they were hurt deeply by something that might not cause so much hurt to another person?

And on the contrary, if someone has a very high threashhold for abuse, and can handle quite a bit of mistreatment without showing outward signs of it, are you suggesting that they are OK because it didn't really effect them, because you can't tell??

WHY ARE YOU (editorial) THE JUDGE OF ANY OF THIS?????

[freestyler]

I cannot believe spanking or hitting could be considered anything BUT abuse. Not in my reality system! I sure consider it abuse!! But more to the point of the OP's questions, I think there is a lot of distance on the spectrum between those who spank and those who practice GD-type parenting. Gads, the questions imply that not to be GD is to hit your kids! That simply is not true. Maybe some parents are not GD folks, but that does not mean they are the ones hitting their child if the child "throws sand in a kid's face, or breaks something" or whatever. But maybe those parents will have a reaction in those cases like, "OK, go take a time out and I don't want to see you for 30 minutes/5 minutes/the rest of the morning." It is not spanking, and is also isn't very nice, and it also is not GD, so where on the spectrum WOULD you put it? Somewhere in the middle, right? Let's try to remember that there are more parenting styles than just "GD" or "non-GD." Labeling people and parenting, and dividing the world into two simplistic camps, is convenient if you're setting up exhibits in a zoo or a museum, but not very good for real life. That sort of thinking might do everyone involved a disservice and cause more animosity than anything else. Suddenly it's the us-against-them mentality, right? I mean, if we don't want us-against-them with our kids, why do we set ourselves up for that thinking with other parents? Does that make sense?

Also, I think the term gentle discipline is very sensitive and very very open to interpretation!! Saying someone is NON-gently disciplining their kid is bound to get them defensive. It implies that they are being the opposite: rough or violent or cruel. Well, to someone who grew up in a truly abusive home (i.e., parent hit with belt, bloodied their nose occasionally, beat them, didn't listen and belittled and yelled or bodily threw them into their room, etc.), once someone from that background becomes a parent, maybe they go out and educate themselves JUST enough to NOT repeat those samme behaviors. Maybe they still yell at their own kid a little bit, and once in a blue moon belittle something by accident. Not very GD, right? But to that parent, I think they will think they are doing one hell of a good job!! I think they will think "Damn, I sure did work hard to overcome the terrible influences of my parents. I never have hit my children, I am gentle and loving and a good listener 95% of the time, I do not lash out in anger. I am such a gentle parent!! Especially compared to the way I was parented!"

Can you begin to imagine what it takes for people to overcome an abusive background and parent well themselves? Are we gonna say those people are not being GD type parents? In their minds they are! Let's remember the huge spectrum there is and that people will have their own perceptions of where they fit on it, largely based upon their upbringing. If those parents are lucky, they'll find a GD board and hang out on it, and learn about an even more "extreme" kind of kindness and gentleness. But remember that until they come into contact with a GD forum or book or other source, they are not likely to see that being even more gentle is a possibility.

Anyway, that's my two cents. There really is more to parenting than GD and non-GD.

[WuWei]

I guess, like the manners thread, sometimes saying nothing or only that which is true is preferrable to the whole tamale of one's truth. One can say hitting is violence. But if the goal is to advocate for the needs and voice of the child, helping to give voice to the child doesn't need to say outright that hitting is abuse either. There is a way to say that the child is hurting, rather than "you are abusing the child". The action of the hitting is less of the issue than the effect on the other person. The underlying need that prompted the hitting still exists. Just as it exists when a child hits others. Helping someone to find a more constructive method of meeting their underlying need is not facilitated by judging the action, whether adult or child. Focusing only on the child's experience, doesn't facilitate finding an alternative way to meet the parent's underlying need.

The parent doesn't have access to other conflict resolution tools. Providing new tools helps the child. Helping the parent to see the experience of the child helps the child. Judging the parent doesn't help either.

Helping doesn't judge. Judging doesn't help. Neither parent, nor child. It is the same philosophy when applied to adults beyond self-control as it is when applied to children beyond self-control. Meet the underlying needs in constructive, mutually agreeable manner.

Pat

[DevaMajka]

Jumping in late to say this, but...

Originally Posted by captain crunchy

It is not up to me to make someone feel really good about hitting their child....if they feel offended perhaps they shouldn't be committing such an offensive act. Yes, instilling fear in another individual by physically striking them with hands meant for caressing and loving them, is offensive to me...

I'm not talking about whether hitting kids IS abuse or not. Or that it shouldn't be expressed that way to someone who is hitting their kids.
What I'm saying is that IF you do use the words "abuse" and "violence" I don't see any way that that could do more good than using other (less extreme) words to get your point across, AND imo, it will do harm in most situations. The person will tune you out.

Originally Posted by aira

I think that if someone is offended that we call their hitting of their children abuse, then that's between them and their conscience.

sure. I'll agree with that. I agree with it a lot- I see it often. BUT offending them is NOT the way to get them to stop hitting their kids! (or anything else, actually- cio, circing, vaxing, etc)

Originally Posted by fourlittlebirds

On the other hand, I don't know why they would bother stopping unless they came to see that it was abusive. If it's not abusive, what does it really matter whether you do it or not?

We decided against spanking when we hadn't ever considered it abusive. It's just wrong to hit anyone. That's all. I don't think it has to be labeled "abusive" in order for it to be "wrong."
Actually, dp thinks that hitting kids to get them to "be better" is about the most ridiculous thing he's ever heard. So I guess we could add that to WHY people would stop spanking (or never spank, in some cases), even if they didn't necessarily consider it abuse- it just plain doesn't work.

[dharmamama]

Originally Posted by Deva33mommy

So I guess we could add that to WHY people would stop spanking (or never spank, in some cases), even if they didn't necessarily consider it abuse- it just plain doesn't work.

I actually think that some of the reason people continue to spank their kids (and I don't mean just the same kids getting spanked repeatedly, I also mean new groups of parents who decide to discipline with spanking) is because it DOES work ... in a very limited way, yes, but it does accomplish the parent's objective of getting the kid to stop whatever they are doing right now. Not all the time, of course, but frequently enough that parents see it as a success. Yes, it can have very bad long-term consequences, but many times parents who are in a tension-filled moment aren't thinking long-term. They are thinking, "He needs to stop that right now!" I have never spanked my kids (or any kids) but I can certainly relate to that feeling. Unfortunately, not everyone is going to think long-term all the time. I know that yelling at my kids is no good, but occasionally I raise my voice to them in frustration. Sometimes my "need"/desire for an immediate solution takes precedence over my knowledge of long-term results.

I think the same is true of some parents who spank, and I think this is one of the reasons why people continue to spank even though there is a lot of evidence that it "doesn't work."

Namaste!

[aira]

OK, I wasn't very clear about that quote above... I'm not suggesting in any way that anyone go up to a spanker, point, and say "Abuser!!" or anything remotely of the sort. I was more addressing where the notion came up (somewhere in here) that we shouldn't even call spanking abuse so as not to offend. And I believe that if someone gets offended by hearing it called what it is, then they indeed are deeply aware of what they are doing.

I do not get offended by someone telling me I'm abusing DS by using cloth dipes, or eating macrobiotically, or not taking him to church. Annoyed for sure, if they get nasty and pushy - but not offended. That is a very specific thing.

I know as well as anyone that parents must overcome tremendous odds to treat their children better than they were treated. I would never suggest that parents be ridiculed or shamed for their struggles.

But I will not avoid calling mistreatment and abuse what it is when discussing it.

[ThinkBlu]

Originally Posted by honeybeedreams

Originally Posted by ThinkBlu

but I was trying to determine if those same persons could also entertain that presenting the message in that way might do harm to the cause of GD.

why not just say that then?

i'm mystified by the presentation of this issue in this way.

why not just come out and say "i feel really offended by the way the message of gentle discipline is sometimes presented in this forum."

what is it you are wanting instead? maybe if you state that, it would be clear what the point of this thread is rather than people just fighting about spanking being abuse or not.

i think offering threads like this just encourgages the kind of exchanges you are saying offends you.

Touché! Hindsight is 20/20. I tried to be very specific so as to narrow it down, so as to focus the discussion on the effect of offensiveness to the cause of GD, I failed (MISERABLY!) As for “why not just say that”….I have many times, but it seems to come across as my being thin-skinned or defensive or advocating for abuse, etc. I really tried to be very, very clear, precisely to avoid the spanking=abuse angle as that has been done to death several times in recent history. Also, I know that I was encouraging dialogue that I would find offensive; I was willing to subject myself to the offense in hopes that some real dialogue could take place about how to constructively forward the cause of GD. Again, I failed, but my intentions were pure.

[ThinkBlu]

This thread is depressing the hell out me. Yes, I asked for it. Yes, I did foresee it in advance of posting. It is depressing me, but not in the way I anticipated. What I keep seeing over and over again is that people on this thread have felt abused and violated and are working hard to protect others from what they went through. I had no idea that so many felt that way.

In a previous post, I said hindsight is 20/20, but that’s not true, in hindsight I don’t know what I could have done to focus this thread. A part of me wishes that I hadn’t included definitions, but that is a big part of it. We use words, and the words have connotations and mean different things to different people based on “their world” view. I can with straight face and clear conscience say that I too believe it TRUTH that SPANKING=ABUSE, provided the definition of abuse that I use. Further, I can say with straight face and clear conscience that I believe it TRUTH that SPANKING=EFFECTIVE DISCILPINE, humiliation even more so!! (note per dictionary.com, effective: Having an intended or expected effect - Producing a strong impression or response and discipline: Training expected to produce a specific character or pattern of behavior-Controlled behavior resulting from disciplinary training-Control obtained by enforcing compliance or order.-A state of order based on submission to rules and authority-Punishment intended to correct or train. ) but what does that accomplish? So I’m being truthful, so I’m being direct, I am also adding a ton of NOISE to the message.

I have stated before that I am willing to entertain that perhaps being civil (meaning not offensive or rude) may not be enough, but I haven’t read anything here that gets even slightly below the surface regarding that stance, and it just doesn’t follow logically to me that being militant (meaning having a combative character; aggressive) in an approach to forward gentleness has a prayer of being effective. I would love to discuss how social and political change is achieved. Any takers? Maybe I’m setting expectations to high, I don’t know how it happens, why should I expect someone else to…

Anyway, I also wanted to respond to some other comments.

It has been asked, if it is not abuse, what is it? How about calling spanking, spanking? How about calling it discipline or an attempt at discipline or heck, maybe even an ineffective attempt at discipline (but to be honest, I think that last one is a “shut down”) When we talk about “time-outs” we don’t talk about putting a child into emotional isolation, we talk about whether or not time-outs are effective, we talk about whether they are the ‘best’ solution (or even a solution at all?). I argue that thinking and communicating about things as “better” is MUCH stronger than thinking about things as “right”. Instead of communicating TO someone that they are RIGHT/WRONG, try communicating WITH someone about what is BETTER. I’m not suggesting that we make someone “feel really good about their hitting”, I’m suggesting that we open a door, not close it.

Originally Posted by BellinghamCrunchie

If we are interested in really helping the parents learn better ways of interacting with their children, then, as many previous posters have talked about in other posts, a better approach would be more empathic and sympathetic, connecting with the parent regarding how hard it is to raise children, and being on their side in figuring out a better way together.

Love it!

Originally Posted by sledg

…I think the point can be made without them provided we take the time and care to do so-and are willing to hear the other person, to understand them, to see their humanity.

Love it!

Originally Posted by dharmamama

Abuse is a climate. People can spank without being abusers. I think that they could find better parenting tools, but I don't think that every spank is an act of abuse.

Love it!

To those who may have taken offense by my definitions from my original post, they were trite and I am sorry. Abuse is real in so many lives, I didn’t mean to belittle it. On the other hand, love is so real in so many lives, even for those with spanking parents, and I was trying to communicate that. I may be naive, but in *my world*, most spanking parents spank out of love. My parents spanked, and my aunt and uncle criticized them for it. I have complete respect for my aunt and uncle for standing up for what they believe and I have complete respect for my parents for having done the same. My parents were the type to set clear but fair boundaries, and I knew when I was crossing them. I was spanked maybe three or four time, and though a trite idea, I have NO DOUBT that it hurt my parents more to spank me, than it hurt me. They did it out of love and responsibility. Misguided? Sure. But, love and responsibility just the same.

[ThinkBlu]

Originally Posted by Dragonfly

I see your point, but I think you should realize that we aren't all out in the world pointing our fingers at non-GD parents, yelling "ABUSER! ABUSER!" We're on a GD board discussing GD and also discussing the consequences of non-GD parenting. It's natural that we should let out our honest feelings out here in more candid language.

I do realize this, but unfortunately, some are out there delivering a message which is being received as “ABUSER! ABUSER!” And while I generally agree with your stance, last night, I was close to walking off this board because I felt like such an outsider and at this point in time, when I meet with the other ECFC moms in my area, there is NO WAY that I would recommend this board as being something which may add clarity to their search for a better way of parenting, and I think that’s very sad.

[ThinkBlu]

Originally Posted by aira

What about those whose intentions are not to harm, but to "teach", or "discipline", to "show love" by hitting?

Are those who believe their actions are helpful to their children not abusers because of their intention? Are their children any less burdened by the consequences of being hit?

Probably insignificant at this point, but in my case, apparently yes.

[ThinkBlu]

Originally Posted by SunRayeMomi

Parents that really do mean well and are inherantly "good" parents run the risk of getting lumped into the category of child-abusers when their own children hear that any spank, any time, is child abuse.

I agree with this. I think that spankers by definition lack *some* degree of good judgment regarding parenting choices, and to introduce friction in the parent/child relationship is helping to set them up for a whole range of problems which will be dealt with in a way that lacks *some* degree of good judgment. I think it better to comfort and affirm the child, but to confront the parent separately.

[ThinkBlu]

Originally Posted by fourlittlebirds

If it's not abusive, what does it really matter whether you do it or not?

I know this has kind of already been said, but IMO the answer is because there are better ways.

[ThinkBlu]

Originally Posted by freestyler

Gads, the questions imply that not to be GD is to hit your kids! …Labeling people and parenting, and dividing the world into two simplistic camps, is convenient if you're setting up exhibits in a zoo or a museum, but not very good for real life. That sort of thinking might do everyone involved a disservice and cause more animosity than anything else. Suddenly it's the us-against-them mentality, right? I mean, if we don't want us-against-them with our kids, why do we set ourselves up for that thinking with other parents? Does that make sense?

freestyler, your reply bothers/saddens me most of all. I thought I was very careful not to imply that GD is to hit, including examples of humiliation, emotional abuse, etc…which is NOT to mean that I am implying that non-GD parenting is abusive, quite the contrary!! I thought I worked hard to demonstrate that labeling us/them is not effective, that was much of my point, it saddens me that I was so misinterpreted. Thank-you for stating your interpretation, I WILL be more careful going forward.

To be honest, after the last couple of days, I’m not sure I have what it takes to call myself a GDer. I have found much more compassion and attempt at betterment from my ‘to the left of mainstream’ friends and acquaintances, and from my ‘mainstream-spanking’ extended family, NONE of which I see as abusive in any way.

[ThinkBlu]

Originally Posted by scubamama

Just as I can't say what is or isn't abuse "according to GD", the parent can't say what is or isn't abuse "according to the parent". It is according to the individual, who dissents. (before they are indoctrinated to believe "it is for their own good" or because "the parent knows best").

Interesting. Not sure if I agree yet or not, but I’ll mull it over.