Behavior chart / reward chart - Page 5

[BusyMommy]

taking children seriously

and, um, I have no comment b/c I do take my kids seriously but I don't consider myself a TCS purist.

[Tummy]

Originally Posted by annab

What do you do when the stickers/poker chips/smilies are not enough? I would see my son doing task A for a few weeks, happily receiving his sticker and moving on. Then, it hits him--this is just a sticker! "You think I am helping you unload the dishwasher for a stinkin' sticker?" Now I am stuck with his not doing his task because the sticker is not valuable enough. Where do you go from there?

With the poker chips, IMO, that is why OP allowes her children to "have a choice" in what they use to buy (so to speak) with thier poker chips.
Its not just a sticker that gets old, kwim.

For instance:
Say one RED chip will allow the child to pick his/her favorite dinner.

One Blue chip will allow the child to be treated to ice cream to the movies (alone, with out other siblings).

One White chip will allow the child to be treated to dinner out and a movie (with out siblings).

Two blue chips perhaps may equal the child to be able to do something else they chose, ect.

Making sense? I do not think that the chips would equate to not being enough. Or even get old. As a child, if I knew that after unloading the dishwasher with out even being asked I would receive a blue chip and could cash it in for a night out with my parent(s) and icecream I would be all on it! There are endless possibilities for the child(ren) with the chips.IMO

I do not think this is a "bad" system... of course may not work for every parent/child, but I still like it.

[dharmamama]

Originally Posted by Tummy

As a child, if I knew that after unloading the dishwasher with out even being asked I would receive a blue chip and could cash it in for a night out with my parent(s) and icecream I would be all on it!

I am a parent who doesn't really see anything wrong with charts, and in fact I think they can be quite useful in certain instances. I don't really see anything wrong with token economies for extra material things (such as earn enough tokens and you can trade them in for $ to buy that Transformer you want soooo bad). But really, something just rubs me the wrong way about a child having to "buy" time with her parents. Even if it's "extra" time. Even if it's "special treat" time. Time with parents should be available for the asking, not dependent on chores performed.

JM.02

Namaste!

[johub]

Originally Posted by dharmamama

I am a parent who doesn't really see anything wrong with charts, and in fact I think they can be quite useful in certain instances. I don't really see anything wrong with token economies for extra material things (such as earn enough tokens and you can trade them in for $ to buy that Transformer you want soooo bad). But really, something just rubs me the wrong way about a child having to "buy" time with her parents. Even if it's "extra" time. Even if it's "special treat" time. Time with parents should be available for the asking, not dependent on chores performed.

JM.02

Namaste!

But dinner out with parents at a special restaurant or a trip with parents to a favorite ice cream parlor still involve parents, but it isnt really their attention or time that is being paid for but a context different from the usual context of being with parents at home.

[dharmamama]

I understand what you are saying Johub, but like I said before,

Originally Posted by dharmamama

Even if it's "extra" time. Even if it's "special treat" time.

that time, attention, and fun together should be given freely by parents, not paid for by kids. IMO. Kids shouldn't have to pay their parents to do something special with them.

Namaste!

[Tummy]

Originally Posted by dharmamama

But really, something just rubs me the wrong way about a child having to "buy" time with her parents. Even if it's "extra" time. Even if it's "special treat" time. Time with parents should be available for the asking, not dependent on chores performed.

JM.02

Namaste!

I am trying to figure out in my brain how to say this and it not sound offending, please excuse me if it does, I do NOT mean for it to!

Perhaps you are missing the idea, I do not know of any 4, 6 or 9 yr olds that can take themselves to the icecream shop. I do not know of any 4, 6, 9 yr olds that can take themselves to the movies.

Its not a matter of the child "paying for time with mommy." Of course the child will be with mommy regardless, or daddy for that matter.

Who will be taking the child to buy that Transformer he/she has so badly wanted?

I agree that special time should be given freely to a child by his/her parent(s)!!!
I do not think its a matter of ....If you don't pay for time with mommy, you will not be having time with her tonight.
This particular type of reward system could even teach children how to manage time and money... if used properly! kwim?

[johub]

So would it be more appropriate if a child used his chips to cash in a trip to the movies or the ice cream parlor by somebody OTHER than the parents? In order that this is not confused with parent fun time that ought to be free?

[amandajf]

Originally Posted by johub

So would it be more appropriate if a child used his chips to cash in a trip to the movies or the ice cream parlor by somebody OTHER than the parents? In order that this is not confused with parent fun time that ought to be free?

In my house, it's a trip to movies or ice cream. If my kids want uncle so and so to take them instead, i'll ask them to take em and give em money to do it.

But in my house this is a huge extra. Usually the rewards are privileges that we consider extra, such as watching a movie/television show, playing on the computer, etc. But if they choose an outing, and they choose to do one with mom and/or dad alone, then yea that's a perk. Why? because how many parents ordinarily hire a babysitter so they can take only one of their children to a movie? Not many. Most will take all of their children. Well, if my oldest has been working really hard at doing extra help around the house and completing tasks on her own volition, I see nothing wrong with her "cashing in" for a night with someone alone, me, her father or big bird for all i care. They know they're not buying mom or dad, they know they're paying in "tokens" in exchange for me to spend money hiring someone else to watch her sisters so we can do something alone. this is something we don't normally due because we just can't afford to hire a sitter 3 nights a week, or month for that matter, so that each kiddo gets a night out alone. And just in case, this isn't due to a lack of caring on our part, but i don't hire a sitter so their father and i get time alone either.

[geekgolightly]

Originally Posted by georgia

Since you had mentioned that you felt part of your routine was a pain, you might be willing to look at an alternative point of view? Here is a link to a Mothering Magazine article that outlines downsides to praise/rewards:

From Mothering

actually that article outlines OVERPRAISING as bad.

excerpt: Positive reinforcement and praise certainly have their place, but we have no control over teeth. If the award had come instead from his dentist, who acknowledged that my son always brushes his teeth after meals and flosses daily, perhaps that might have meant something to him. That would have rewarded his effort more than any esoteric notion of healthy teeth. My son knows, though, that he made no special effort to lose his front tooth, and that everyone will eventually lose those baby teeth. His reward has taught him something important: doing nothing is good enough. There is no need to make an effort if you will be rewarded the same regardless.

[geekgolightly]

Originally Posted by mumto2

....Ummmmm.... :


I get the general idea but what exactly does TCS stand for?

TCS = taking children seriously...
TCS is an educational philosophy. Its most distinctive feature is the idea that it is possible and desirable to bring up children entirely without doing things to them against their will, or making them do things against their will, and that they are entitled to the same rights, respect and control over their lives as adults.


and my husband was raised in this fashion. he was raised essentially summerhill... another form of TCS. His father is professor emeritus of psychology and in the 70's when DH was born, his father took TCS principals seriously and raised him accordingly. His father regrets it, as does my husband, frankly. Reed never learned how to navigate in society. He learned that his opinion is what mattered. Great. he never learned that compromise and manipulation were aspects fo being able to work in society. Manipulation means "please" and "thank you" Manipulation means being able to say "I want this job because I love the idea of working at this company blah blah blah rather than "I need the paycheck" and absolutely not having the ability to be able to on-the-spot lie, or come up with alternate realities in order to be able to get a job. Sounds ideal to have a child free of manipulations, btu the reality is very harsh. Reed can not communicate well with other people. He does not have a job, despite being utterly brilliant. He can not come up with bull%^&* that everyone else in America uses on a daily basis to network, and find jobs.

He never knew what his father really thought about anything he ever did. His father gave him NO CLUE as to how he felt ebcause he was always saying "how do you feel about that?" No direction means that when he left home to go to college he lost 40 pounds within six months because he didn't know how to cook and kept putting off cooking thinking that eventually it will get worked out. That is a serious handicap. When he was invited to work in a chem lab by a notoriously difficult chem professor (big achievement) he asked his father about h\it and his father had no comment. Now, his father is a professor himself and knows how important this is as a contact, and reed didn;t take his chem prof up on it because he felt it would be a burden, having NO CLUE that this is a way to further himself and his academic career = lack of ability to manipulate.

bad idea.

[Fuamami]

Originally Posted by geekgolightly

TCS = taking children seriously...
TCS is an educational philosophy. Its most distinctive feature is the idea that it is possible and desirable to bring up children entirely without doing things to them against their will, or making them do things against their will, and that they are entitled to the same rights, respect and control over their lives as adults.


and my husband was raised in this fashion. he was raised essentially summerhill... another form of TCS. His father is professor emeritus of psychology and in the 70's when DH was born, his father took TCS principals seriously and raised him accordingly. His father regrets it, as does my husband, frankly. Reed never learned how to navigate in society. He learned that his opinion is what mattered. Great. he never learned that compromise and manipulation were aspects fo being able to work in society. Manipulation means "please" and "thank you" Manipulation means being able to say "I want this job because I love the idea of working at this company blah blah blah rather than "I need the paycheck" and absolutely not having the ability to be able to on-the-spot lie, or come up with alternate realities in order to be able to get a job. Sounds ideal to have a child free of manipulations, btu the reality is very harsh. Reed can not communicate well with other people. He does not have a job, despite being utterly brilliant. He can not come up with bull%^&* that everyone else in America uses on a daily basis to network, and find jobs.

He never knew what his father really thought about anything he ever did. His father gave him NO CLUE as to how he felt ebcause he was always saying "how do you feel about that?" No direction means that when he left home to go to college he lost 40 pounds within six months because he didn't know how to cook and kept putting off cooking thinking that eventually it will get worked out. That is a serious handicap. When he was invited to work in a chem lab by a notoriously difficult chem professor (big achievement) he asked his father about h\it and his father had no comment. Now, his father is a professor himself and knows how important this is as a contact, and reed didn;t take his chem prof up on it because he felt it would be a burden, having NO CLUE that this is a way to further himself and his academic career = lack of ability to manipulate.

bad idea.

Okay, so not to defend TCS here, as I know no one IRL who does it and we certainly don't, but it did sound to me from the previous discussions on this board that it's certainly okay to tell your children how you feel about something, even if you are practicing it. Or at least that's how the mothers who post here talk about it. Am I wrong? I guess I also haven't ever heard of "Summerhill". And I hate to mix up TCS with NCP. Or consensual living.

[amandajf]

Pics of our results!

http://pixspace.com/Amanda/albums/album12

Big vase is my stash.

The sconces are the kids stashes. They each get one sconce with two bud vases

[Eman'smom]

Very pretty

Oh and we have a reward chart for ds, when he gets a certain number of stickers he can go pick out a dinosaur from the store. I see nothing wrong with him earning a dinosaur.

[TortelliniMama]

Originally Posted by dharmamama

I am not a TCS parent and I never will be no matter how many times TCS parents state their case, so although I'm sure their advice is offered with the best of intentions, it's of no use to me because my parenting paradigm is so fundamentally different from theirs.

I'm not a TCS parent, either, but I find TCS/non-coercive parents' posts to be useful to me because they do make me reconsider my choices. It's not that I'm changing my mind to their point of view, because I still do see developmental value to the thoughtful wielding of parental control/power. But I don't think that having power over another person, including my child, should ever be a totally comfortable experience. I don't think that harshness or "you're not GDing" is necessary or helpful in keeping us non-TCSers on our toes, but I do think that the posts pointing out, "There's another perspective," are valuable.

In terms of the whole token system thing, well, I found them unwieldy and frequently more trouble than they were worth when I was teaching kids with autism, and I don't at the moment see myself using them with my kids, but since ds is only 2.5, I don't have a lot of parent-side experience to offer. I did want to mention though, that I think the big benefit provided by the tokens on the nanny shows is the effect they have on the *parents*. The presence of the tokens prompts the parents to remember to notice the positive things their kids do (which many of the parents on the show seem to have fallen into the habit of not noticing much, which can happen so easily), and, even though I'm even less enthusiastic about response cost (taking away a token in response to undesired behavior), at least it gives the parents a more controlled response to those behaviors (as opposed to the yelling, hitting, etc., that was happening before).

I actually did set up a token system in one classroom specifically to give my aides a firm guideline as to what was okay to do if a child was behaving in an undesired way. Before that, there were a lot of threats of "no playground tomorrow" (with a child who didn't even have a great grasp of when "tomorrow" was), lengthy scoldings, etc. (Because the school district found it hard to fill the aide positions, the administration actually supported the aides whenever they disagreed with me. There were always special ed teachers looking for jobs, but not too many people wanted to be poorly paid aides.) With the tokens, the aides got to take out their frustrations by removing a token. Sounds stupid, and it was totally not ideal, but it did save the kids from worse treatment.

(All this discussion is *not* directly at the OP. I'm certainly not suggesting that you'd be screaming at/hitting/ignoring the positive behaviors of your kids without the token system. I would have absolutely no reason to suggest that. I'm just talking about tokens in certain cases. )

[alicia622]

I didn't read all the responses but wanted to chime in that reward charts can be great. In my work, we are often times figuring out ways to help families develop chart systems with a win-win angle. For example, I helped a foster family make a chart so the child could earn points. Depending on the points would determine how much freedom he would have the next day to do fun things. For example, he might be able to have extra time on a video game or stay up late. He helped decide what he was earning and it was for pretty basic stuff. I also used charts as a way to increase a childs self esteem. They were created with the child earning the prize pretty easily. And it worked wonders. Not only did he usually get his 'prize' (which he picked), it was also a great tool for us to talk about each item. At the end of each shift, I gave him the chart and we discussed together how he did each item that day. Another worker ceated a bean jar with a family she worked with. Mom would add beans to the jar when the kids did something positive (not sure what the actual target bx. were) and when the jar was filled up, the whole family did something special together. I think that's a neat idea- a great way to visually show the family working together and getting to play together.

I don't know if I would use them for a well adjusted child, but the kids I work with are 'high needs' (serious family issues, mental health dx., and in foster care).

As far as figuring out a system for your kids, I'd focus on their favorite things and go from there. The flower pot is neat

[Dar]

Originally Posted by geekgolightly

He never knew what his father really thought about anything he ever did. His father gave him NO CLUE as to how he felt ebcause he was always saying "how do you feel about that?"

This isn't TCS. Sharing theories is an essential component of TCS, as is seeking mutually agreeable solutions.

Summerhill also isn't TCS. Summerhill had lots of rules, too. Has, actually.

Dar

[tamagotchi]

geekgolightly, I was raised in a completely non-coercive way too. I don't see that it's hurt me or made me unable to function in the world; quite the contrary. I'm glad I was raised the way I was, because it was a lot of fun for us as kids!

I do know quite a few people who are brilliant and have trouble holding down a job, and difficulties with other practical aspects of life -- and it so happens that they all had totally mainstream parents. I think some people just turn out that way. They are wonderful people anyway.

[mamaduck]

There was one time when my older son was about 4 that I thought seriously about doing a reward chart to improve his behavior, with a reward of a weekly outing alone with me. After thinking it through, I decided that he needed the weekly outing alone with me, whether he improved his behavior or not. So I made it completely "free." After several weeks of consistant 1:1 time with mommy, I noticed huge improvements in his overall behavior. I also noticed feeling more connected to him, feeling more patient with him, and being better in tune to the hidden needs and messages behind his behavior when he did act out.

[BellinghamCrunchie]

The vases and flowers are very pretty! What a unique idea. They look lovely.

[Piglet68]

So let me ask all you reward-chart using mamas....do YOU have a reward chart for your behaviour?

I know for me, personally, I have days when my behaviour is less than stellar, when I forget the rules of couples communication and just yell/vent at him. When I yell at my kids instead of helping them...DH and I have issues that we are constantly working on with each other. None of that work involves any sort of tangible reward.

This isn't sarcasm, by the way, I just am not sure why kids should be subjected to this when I'm guessing the adults aren't. What do the adults do to modify behaviour they don't like about themselves? And why can't that be applied to children?