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Two-mom family - Please share your thoughts - Page 8

post #141 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoesmummy
But from my *daughter's* point of view - why/how would she get around that disapproval (?) and still be friends with the other person? Like how does it make her feel? Can she live with that?

Is each person different? (Well, duh. I know each person is different) I think I'm just having a hard time envisoning the relationship of the disapproving friend and the "sinner".
Well, say that the person who harbored those thoughts kept them to themselves? Kind of like how many people hear a little voice in their head making fun of (or being thankful that they aren't) a fat person that they see at the store--yet many manage to control themselves and not burden the other person with their 'I'm glad I'm not you' comments.

Depending on how freaked out about actual homosexual relationships the person is (because I think being okay or not okay with the concept works a heck of a lot different intellectually/academically than being right there in the flesh--seen suprising results in lots of different people), they might just think it's more of an personal annoyance (like one might genuinely love a friend otherwise but they have one phrase that is irritating or they have a belly laugh when they're REALLY getting into it that is like nails on chalkboard, or they're a compulsive hair puller--have to pull out every white hair they see on themselves and then they drop it without thinking onto your chair and it drives you nuts, ect.).

So...your daughter might not even know. Just because you look at someone with a huge birthmark and wouldn't want one yourself doesn't mean that you can't get over yourself and be friends with that person.

I'm pretty sure the people who feel discomfort at the prospect of being homosexual themselves (for religious or aesthetic or cultural or whatever reasons) BUT who are capable and open to developing relationships with people regardless are NOT going to be the ones that feel the need to cram their point of view down someone else's throat. And they're unlikely to stick around with people they perceive to be crammers from a different angle.

I mean, you have friends whom you love the total package but there are SOME things that A) you wouldn't choose for yourself or B) let's face it, they annoy you. But I think that if you are open and you feel a connection with someone (I don't know how to quantify it, but I hope most people here have experienced kind of an instant attraction in a friendship/sisterhood way...and you are at first boggled as to WHY it was with this specific person), you can choose to set aside a multitude of disagreements and differences.

I think someone can feel torn between their religious beliefs and a friend, and choose to keep their religious feelings to themselves in order to love their friend. Maybe this is not as common with such culturally hotbutton issues as homosexuality (and again, that is slowly changing--not as fast as I would like, but it is changing), but I don't think it would be a very rare thing either.

Did that make sense at all?

As a personal example...one of the people that I have felt the strongest attraction (again, talking friendship/sisterhood/soulmate) to is pretty much diametrically the opposite of me (except for she's not a white supremecist). Political. Religious. Parenting. You name it (well, she cloth diapered too, but I'm not a diaper hyena so that wasn't the basis for our attraction either). We had some hairraising fights. But in the end, I loved her for her, and we could always bridge that gap. Until I was a total ass at a very wrong time and I blew it. But it was more my craptacular timing and general you-know-what-itude than because of some political or cultural issue--and I don't blame her for her reaction. Now, I could have just passed on by when we first met, because I didn't want to associate with "her type". But I'm very glad that I didn't, because she ended up being a very good thing in my life and I will always, always love her and miss her (I am actually starting to cry reading this). So do I think that such a thing could happen between a lesbian and someone who thinks that homosexuality is a sin? Oh yes. And I would hope that if something like that happened that they'd both be open to it.

You just never know, and sometimes the universe can bring some really wonderful people in your life from places you would have never expected.
post #142 of 160
hi. i was actually raised by two women from the time i was in diapers, until i was about 9 years old. i'm 24 now w/ my own daughter & married (to a man). i only remember a couple times that were hard for me when my friends were still really immature about the gay & lesbian lifestyles. but over all, i'm grateful i was raised the way i was because i grew up with such an open mind about it. my mom actually came out to me when i was 9 years old. um, yeah, i knew already mom! so i guess from my view, i wouldn't mind at all! i would assume the two of you were together, & wouldn't expect you to say hi, we're lesbians, even if i were ignorant to it. of course, i'm sure you wouldn't say it like that anyway. i hope the two of you get some good advice from this forum & find peace (if you haven't already) in how to parent the way that's good for you. god bless!
post #143 of 160
Thread Starter 
My analogy to the "love the homosexual sinner, hate the sin" is interracial marriage. Not that long ago, interracial marriage was illegal in this country - justified by the Christian bible. It was a sin. So much a sin it was legislated against... like homosexuality is currently legislated against. Of course adultery is a sin. Stealing is a sin. Coveting thy neighbor's cloth diapers is a sin. Because the action in question is "wrong."

Is interracial marriage a sin? Is it wrong, like stealing is wrong? Is it something that we would be a "better person" if we did not do? Is someone a "better person" for not giving in to an interracial marriage?

If you believe that interracial marriage is wrong, does that make you a racist? Does saying "we are all sinners in God's eyes" make your belief less racist at its core?

I think the analogy to interracial marriage is very appropriate. Stealing is wrong. Coveting is wrong. Is marriage to a person of a different skin color "wrong"?

I like this analogy better than alcoholism.
post #144 of 160
Thread Starter 
Wanted to add.... most of our concepts of right and wrong are based on keeping us, and others, from getting hurt.

Violence. Theft. Lying. Jealousy. Anger. Adultery. Alcoholism. Judgment. You can say easily who gets hurt by these actions.

So, if I love another female - who gets hurt? How is an interracial marriage destructive? These don't fall into the same category at all as the rest of the "sins" do they?
post #145 of 160

my random thoughts (there are several)

i have only read the first couple of pages of posts to this thread, so i have missed much of the content. i do hope that i have something valid to add.

to start, i am a black lesbian mother of 2 (2 and 9 yo), in a 15 year relationship with a white woman. we live in a very tolerant place and are supported by family and friends of all orientations. our children see all sorts of families all of the time. this is pretty ideal.

we were lucky to start out with a lesbian mothers' group during our pregnancy with our oldest. that group has become like extended family. we have vacationed together and get together quarterly (it used to be monthly, but as kids got older the schedules got to be too hard to manage).

we are out in our lives and always use the words partner or wife when referring to each other. if people have an issue with it (which still surprises me) it is usually very obvious and we decide that we don't need contact with those people.

i am too old/too busy to be the interracial lesbian mom ambassador to the world.

it can be difficult to connect with other lesbian parents, and obviously meeting them doesn't mean you will make a meaningful connection just because you share one aspect of your lives.

we have actually found that the issues get a little trickier as the kids get older. at a certain point kids will have drop off playdates. when visiting kids ask questions "where is zachary's daddy?" or "do you both sleep in this bed?" we answer the question honestly and briefly. if there are more questions, we suggest that the child ask her/his own parents. we don't know how open other families are about baby-making in general and just think this is a line we don't want to cross.

i would encourage you to get in contact with a local lesbian and gay health center or women's center in your area if such a thing exists. you should also
check out the family pride coalition. they often have local events as well as large week long lesbian and gay family events in provincetown, ma and in michigan every summer.

remember, we are everywhere.
post #146 of 160
Quote:
Nicean Christians (the ones that believe in the trinity, original sin, deified Jesus as Savior) think that EVERYONE is a sinNER. Homosexual intercourse might be seen as a sin...but so is engaging in a fantasy about the pool boy or snapping at your kids, and all might as well be equally offensive before God.
Thank you. You explained it better than I did.
post #147 of 160
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post #148 of 160
Quote:
I mean, you have friends whom you love the total package but there are SOME things that A) you wouldn't choose for yourself or B) let's face it, they annoy you. But I think that if you are open and you feel a connection with someone (I don't know how to quantify it, but I hope most people here have experienced kind of an instant attraction in a friendship/sisterhood way...and you are at first boggled as to WHY it was with this specific person), you can choose to set aside a multitude of disagreements and differences.
Quote:
I think someone can feel torn between their religious beliefs and a friend, and choose to keep their religious feelings to themselves in order to love their friend. Maybe this is not as common with such culturally hotbutton issues as homosexuality (and again, that is slowly changing--not as fast as I would like, but it is changing), but I don't think it would be a very rare thing either.
I gotcha. That last part especially makes sense to me - thank you for taking the time to go through it. I find that as a nursing student, and being well, "exposed" to all sorts of cultural/religious/sexual/religious differences makes me very quick to defend anyone on the receiving end of any perceived discrimination. I want everyone to just get along!



Good discussion guys.
post #149 of 160
I didn't read everyone's replies but to answer the OP questions:

if I saw you at a park with someone of a similar age I don't know what I'd think. Depends on how you interacted, probably. But if I introduced myself to you I'd say
"Hi I'm Kristin, that's my daughter Erin, she's 3." then I might say "that's my other daughter Leah and my husband, Erik."

to which you might say
"I'm, ____, child's mom. This is my partner ______."
post #150 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kincaid
So, if I love another female - who gets hurt? How is an interracial marriage destructive? These don't fall into the same category at all as the rest of the "sins" do they?
Technically, yes. (Though interracial/cultural marriage has also been praised by the Bible, even in the old testament.) Sin isn't sin because it hurts another person--it is 'sin' because it is a separation from God or what you believe God's plan is.

Okay once more I've deleted a metric ton of philosophical and theological rambling, because it has nothing to do with anything and belongs on Spirituality, not Parenting.

Anyway...

Look, I think that most of us here probably have some degree of baggage about words like "sin", "salvation", "moral", ect. I include myself in this. It's helpful if you know how the person in question defines it, and not just assume it's what YOU have come to associate it with. As a Christian Unitarian Universalist (very liberal theologically, no triune God, Jesus as enlightener rather than Savior, following Jesus' direct teachings NOT that of the Church, ect--in other words, a pre-resurrection/no resurrection believer/admirer of Jesus of Nazereth's teachings...and no that doesn't apply to all Christian UUs, just *this* one) I have had to do an *immense* amount of reclaiming of terms. And even so, I reject original sin, and don't consider homosexuality a sin either, given that I believe the old purity system is no more.

But even most conservative evangelical traditionalists will say that the definition of "sin" is "imperfections that separate us from God". Some choose to operate in a hierarchy of sin--others reject it out of hand.

It is with the people who believe that we all share the same human condition--imperfect, not-godlike, ect. that I believe you can forge friendships...because they will see you as an equal. The people who use a hierarchy of sin to elevate themselves while lowering others (especially if they can do it in a way that is not risky to them--easy to do that with homosexuality if you're straight--it guarantees you to be at least one step up from the bottom!), not so much.

But sin does not mean the same thing to everyone. I guess if someone wanted to be very bland and not risk any sort of offense, they would find another word. But then there are those who want to reclaim them. So you just ahve to be careful about making assumptions--my guess is that you will be able to tell from that person's actions and demeanor what camp they fall into.

Ugh, I guess I DID ramble on theologically, didn't I. Okay, this is my last "religious" post, I promise.
post #151 of 160
Thread Starter 
Tiger,
When I said "sin" - I meant things that are commonly viewed as wrong behaviour across most all world religions. I am also Unitarian Universalist, so I was referencing a broader notion of sin - not just Christian.
Looking at the Christian bible Old Testament, so many things were made "sin" as ways to protect people. Like keeping dietary laws.

Leave it to the UU'ers to go off on a tangent on sin, LOL......
post #152 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kincaid
Leave it to the UU'ers to go off on a tangent on sin, LOL......
Hahahaha! So true!
post #153 of 160
Fellow UU'ers here ourselves.
post #154 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jwebbal
And to reply to Mamaintheboonies, if you are racist and I am black, nope I would not be friends, heck I am not black and I still wouldn't want you as a friend, or at least if you said ONE single racist comment to me, and ESPECIALLY in front of my child, I would put you in your place immediately. I do not tolerate it, not in family members, extended family or friends.
***deleted b/c I misread.
post #155 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jwebbal
And to reply to Mamaintheboonies, if you are racist and I am black, nope I would not be friends, heck I am not black and I still wouldn't want you as a friend, or at least if you said ONE single racist comment to me, and ESPECIALLY in front of my child, I would put you in your place immediately. I do not tolerate it, not in family members, extended family or friends. I basically told my partners Grandmother to shut up when she used the n word last time we visited. She wasn't using it the worst way, but I told her I will not tolerate that word being used around me, and especially not our child. Mind you MITB, I am not saying YOU are racist, but that I don't tolerate people that are, friends or not. Same thing goes for other things, like sexism, ageism, etc. I make it very clear that I will not tolerate comments or conversations that are sexist, ageist, etc.
There is a difference between not tolerating racism or working to end racism.
My Uncle fought in 'Nam and hates all asians. Fine. I still won't stop loving him. I won't stop calling him Uncle. As you, I will not tolerate him making comments.

I am sure there are GLBT people whose parents are Catholic and believe their child is living in sin. Do they stop loving their parents? No, not all, maybe a few.

Let's face it, most persons who are homophobic are not going to be friends with a homosexual. Not too many GLBT are going to go out of their way to create a friendship with someone who is homophobic. It's just a waste of time and energy.

I don't know if I made it any clearer or just muddled it up, again.
post #156 of 160
In Re: to OP: I wouldn't assume that people who "think you're friends or sisters" really do. I live in a really gay-friendly area, and I'll still make the outward assumption that two women with a baby are "friends" unless I am speciffically told otherwise because I assume that lesbians may not want to be "out" to everyone and they won't take offense if I assume they're friends. As opposed to friends who may take offense if I would assume they were lesbians.

My (non-biological, looks nothing like me) sister and I get the same sort of wondering looks when we go out because we're together so much and co-parent each other's children so much we look rather like a couple--plus we get looks for having six kids within five years. But whether it's my gay-friendly town, or her definately not gay-friendly Navy town, we never have anyone actually ASK.

Regarding more recent "analogies":
Didn't read all of the posts but see if this helps. When I try to be understanding (and it's hard) of my cousin's husband who doesn't want his three kids to hang out with his sister's family because she's a lesbian, and his "love the sinner, hate the sin" attitude in general, I try to keep this in mind:

First off, he believes her being with a woman is a choice. I need to accept that as his view on the world to start out with if I am going to understand him.

My coven-sister has joined the army. I hate that decision. I still love her. I think what she is doing is damaging to her own psyche and damaging to society at large. I still love her. I get very nervous at the idea of her being around my children as a role-model because I don't want them to grow up to think that lifestyle is an appropriate choice. I still love her. I listen very carefully as to how she explains her lifestyle choice to my children, and afterwards explain why I disagree with her choice. I realize the more time my sons spend with her, the more likely they are to see that as an acceptable choice.

I am hesitant when my son wants to participate in activities with another child's parents if I know they are military, because this lifestyle choice usually goes along with other values that I may not want my children exposed to.

If my sons were to choose to join the military when they grow up, I would hate that choice. I would still love them. I may not talk to them for a little while until I am not as upset. I would still love them. I may get upset when they talk about aspects of that life with pride. I would still love them. I would think that what they are doing is damaging to themselves and to others. I would still love them.
post #157 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by lalaw

i am too old/too busy to be the interracial lesbian mom ambassador to the world.

I hear you. I'm not old and I'm white, but I'm lesbian and it gets really tiring trying to educate people all the time. One of the reasons I live in a city with TONS of queer parents so I don't always have to be educating. I like "ambassador" better though, haha!
post #158 of 160
I'm sorry if my thoughts are redundant, but 8 pages . . . Shrek is just so long and I'll have to be a mommy again soon. So, my opinion is that you should be as obviously out as you can be without purposely offending the general public at large. (Some people will be offended no matter what, so forget about them.) Aim for somewhere between Gay-Pride-Parade-sucking-face-in-the-street and Who-Us?-Just-Friends.

I have a little 8 year old friend who has two moms. I was her babysitter from birth till she started school and we're still close. She's often considered me her third mom. I worry about her feeling like she doesn't fit in because her family is different than most. At 8, I'm sure it would be comforting for her, and kids like her, to see more families like hers. You can be one of those families . . . a living, breathing public service announcement.

This is how I feel about nursing in public, like I'm performing a public service. See everybody, it's normal to nurse a toddler. You can do it too!
post #159 of 160
i don't really consider myself old (37) but i've been out for almost 20 years and feel like i've "been there and done that" re: the education thing.
post #160 of 160
We have always expained to DS that all families are different, just as all people are. Some families are made up of 2 mommies, some with 2 daddies, some with one of each, some with no kids, some with lots of kids, etc. If I saw you I would assume you are a 2-mommy family and would be happy to meet you!!

The other day DS was telling a friend at school that he wants to marry his friend Hudson. The friend told him- you can't marry him- he's a boy. Ds came home wondering why his friend said he can't marry a boy when I've been telling him he can marry and make a family with whoever he wants. Had a hard time expaining to him how not everyone shares our point of view on this (especially in my town with its predominately conservative christian population).
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