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"Spanking: I spared the rod and my kids smacked me with it" - Page 2

post #21 of 126
poop, I thought he was four....

It said something like "reason with my four year old" I thought

Oh well, I tried.
post #22 of 126
The older child is 4.

But what gets me is that she was spanked as a child, too. It must not have affected her the way getting hit did me as a child. It may have made me stop doing whatever is was that I wasn't supposed to do, but it just made me seethe, too. How healthy.
post #23 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by captain crunchy
poop, I thought he was four....

It said something like "reason with my four year old" I thought

Oh well, I tried.
I think that is Liam, her older child, whom she appears to spank as well. I think your example is quite good.
post #24 of 126
Ah, I wish, but probably not. I just didn't want to be one of those "you bleeping bleep! You are a child abusing, controlling bleep who is damaging her kids!"....

Though it was tempting...

Thanks though for your kind words all...
post #25 of 126
Does she really believe a 1 year old can have a conversation like this:

Quote:
That's what he does, he looks straight at us whenever he does something bad.

"What are YOU gonna do about this, woman?" he says to me with his fat-faced, snowman eyes.
in his head? I mean really ... a 1 year old? Oh man ... makes me sick to think of her complete ignorance towards children (and babies).
post #26 of 126
I just read the first few paragraphs to dd (8) and she said, "I hope he never finds out that his mom said that he has a fat face and snowman eyes. And it's really mean to hit your kid."
post #27 of 126
Ok -- so after dd said that we talked about spanking and she who is enamored with our new computer said, "Could I send an email to that lady?" So here is what she sent, no coaching from me other than asking, 'why' to her statements.

Dear Mrs. Logues-

I am 8. I hope your kid never finds out that you called him a name or that he was like a dog. It's also mean to hit your kid. You should never hit a one year old. They don't know they're being bad. When he's bad you can teach him to do something else. When you hurt them it feels like you don't like them.



Ok-- I'm sure this isn't going to make a big impact on Dawn, but as part of my belief in not hitting my child, the column provided a nice opportunity to talk about my child about it. So it was really interesting to see the expression on her face as she was listening to the column. When I read, "fat faced snowman eyes," she kind of flinched and raised her eyebrows and said, "She is his mom saying that?"
post #28 of 126
Awesome letter Capt. Crunchy!

And WOW! shanagirl...I think if anything will get thru to that woman, it will be the very true, very honest words of your compassionate dd.
What a proud mama you must be .
post #29 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by shanagirl

Dear Mrs. Logues-

I am 8. I hope your kid never finds out that you called him a name or that he was like a dog. It's also mean to hit your kid. You should never hit a one year old. They don't know they're being bad. When he's bad you can teach him to do something else. When you hurt them it feels like you don't like them.
Your daughter is so sweet and wise.

I knew I shouldn't have opened the article link.
post #30 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jadzia
I just checked out her blog. Ewan, the one who got his first spanking, is ONE YEAR OLD.
And she expected a one-year old not to play with the Xmas tree lights? To sit quietly like a little doll instead of being a normal toddler? What is wrong with her?
post #31 of 126
Capt. Crunchy and shanagirl's daughter both wrote wonderful, wonderful letters. I hope they have an impact on this woman. Maybe, just maybe, something will spark some doubt in her mind and she will reconsider.

It's so sad that people feel this way about children, my mother is a firm believer in spanking and will never understand why i don't hit my children.
post #32 of 126
This line right here says so much about her character:

Quote:
Something more severe than hand-smacking but less severe than the Catherine Wheel. Thus, we instituted spanking.
Well I guess we should be thankful she didn't go for a medieval torture device??
post #33 of 126
I'm totally being a post slut but here is my letter:

Quote:
Dear Ms. Loesch:

I was saddened to read your article in STLtoday and to learn that you have not found a more humane way to teach your children. In a broader sense I also am deeply concerned that others reading your article will take your words as a validation to committ child abuse. I have four children myself ages 15, 11, 3 1/2 and 10 months. I have never had to resort to hitting any of them and surprisingly enough I do not use Jedi mind tricks nor do I use medieval torture devices! :-)

It sounds in your article like you are unwilling to listen to other ideas for more gentle methods of disclipline - but I would like to urge you to reconsider. I know it's not easy being a parent and that learning yet another way to cope with the children when you believe you've found something that works OK for you may seem like a waste of time but I think you'll come to find this isn't the case. Being a gentle teacher is not only better for children but will be better for you! I know you must feel guilt and sadness when you resort to hitting - being gentle means you don't have to feel that way and your children don't have to wonder why Mommy thinks it's OK to hurt them. It's also important to remember that there will come a time when your child will be too old for you to hit and if you have not learned other effective ways to disclipline before then you will truly be at a loss.

I thank you for reading and (hopefully) rethinking some of the ideas expressed in your article. Should you find a more gentle method that works to your satisfaction I hope you will write about it and share with your readers.

Kind Regards,

Kitty
post #34 of 126
A COPY OF THE EMAIL I SENT HER>

Toddlers are similar to dogs, and I know by experience. Similar to how a dog can only understand certain words when you talk to it, children choose only to hear the words which suit them best. At least mine do.

Let me explain what "discipline" acutually means. It means "to guide". The "rod" you speak of was used to guide the sheep, not to beat them. In all seriousness, you need a good parenting class, not a blog.
post #35 of 126
I couldnt just let it go either, since she has made all of the most common misassumptoins and shows such lack of understanding of children:
Quote:
Dear Mrs. Loesch,

I was deeply saddened by your article “Spanking: I spared the rod and my kids smacked me with it.”
While it saddens me that you have chosen to educate your children with violence, many less educated than you continue to do the same thing. What really saddens me is that you started out with the intention NOT to spank, and the heartfelt understanding that your children need your kindness and not your anger and pain. But you have given up without even trying.
You say you “Spared the ROD” but how can this be when the children you are spanking are babies? If you spank a 1 year old, when, if ever was this “rod” spared?
It also appears very clearly that any amount of educating yourself on the subject of child development; communication and discipline would have solved these problems for you without having to resort to violence.
For example, if you knew that your 1 year old looks at you when doing something “bad” because he is looking for your reaction to guide him. You would not feel the need to strengthen that reaction with violence. If you knew that he is using his hands, eyes and ears to learn about the world and cause and effect, you would certainly never interpret his look as “What are YOU gonna do about this woman?” A one year old is not interested in challenging you. It is your skewed perception of the event that interprets it in this way.
And if the question should arise what YOU are going to do about it, there are other ways to stop him from playing in the Christmas Tree lights other than hitting him. The failing in discipline in this area was due to your lack of creativity and not his resistance to direction. For a one year old, the ONLY reasonable action would be to go him and remove him from the lights yourself. For you expect too much when you expect a one year old to have full impulse control and the ability to put your instructions before his own.
Second of all, I can assure you, that as a mother of four children, three of them toddlers, I am perfectly capable of teaching them how to behave with neither Jedi mind tricks nor violence. Any amount of study on your part could give you the tools you need to be an effective parent. Your children do not deserve pain and punishment for your lack of willingness to try anything else.
You state that children speak “another language”. Again, any amount of investigation on this matter would have divulged to you that young children cannot process negative commands, and they generally leave out “don’t” . This, again is VERY EASY to solve without violence. Instead of telling your child what NOT to do, tell them what to do.
Again your children are experiencing pain and violence as a result of your own unwillingness to understand them.
You believe so strongly in spanking, yet with children so young, you can hardly have given anything else a chance.
I can tell you unequivocally that my children also are fully capable of responding to the word “no” on the first request. And this is without ever having hit them at all.
You say that you wish to be a “ padawan” in the Jedi mind games required to teach children without violence. Perhaps you should pick up a book.
I would highly recommend William Sears book “The Discipline Book” for Starters. This father of 8 shows very clearly that good behavior can be attained without any violence. As a follow up I would also suggest you indulge yourself in a copy of Anthony Wolf’s “The Secret of Parenting.”
You say that you were spanked yourself. And that you believe that spanking is therefore an effective means to educate. But I would ask you, how much have you been willing to educate yourself as an adult without that threat of further spanking?
Your unwillingness to undergo any voluntary self-improvement, (by learning even the most basic understanding of child development that every parent ought to be required to learn) without force ought to be in itself a deterrent to using force and violence to educate your own children. Did you grow up to steal cars? No indeed. But you grew up to think it was ok to hit those you love, and that it was better and more expedient to improve your children through violence than to improve yourself through voluntary education.

Shame on you,

Sincerely,
Johub
post #36 of 126
Please tell me that she did not actually say this:

Quote:
Besides, why else do you think we had kids? To smack them!
That is just plain sick.
post #37 of 126
OMG Joline! How is it that you said exactly what I wanted to say to her! (though I definitely wouldn't have said it as well, and would probably not have sent it lol)
You sent that, right? I love it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by johub
(snip)
It also appears very clearly that any amount of educating yourself on the subject of child development; communication and discipline would have solved these problems for you without having to resort to violence.
For example, if you knew that your 1 year old looks at you when doing something “bad” because he is looking for your reaction to guide him. You would not feel the need to strengthen that reaction with violence. If you knew that he is using his hands, eyes and ears to learn about the world and cause and effect, you would certainly never interpret his look as “What are YOU gonna do about this woman?” A one year old is not interested in challenging you. It is your skewed perception of the event that interprets it in this way.
And if the question should arise what YOU are going to do about it, there are other ways to stop him from playing in the Christmas Tree lights other than hitting him. The failing in discipline in this area was due to your lack of creativity and not his resistance to direction. For a one year old, the ONLY reasonable action would be to go him and remove him from the lights yourself. For you expect too much when you expect a one year old to have full impulse control and the ability to put your instructions before his own.
Second of all, I can assure you, that as a mother of four children, three of them toddlers, I am perfectly capable of teaching them how to behave with neither Jedi mind tricks nor violence. Any amount of study on your part could give you the tools you need to be an effective parent. Your children do not deserve pain and punishment for your lack of willingness to try anything else.
You state that children speak “another language”. Again, any amount of investigation on this matter would have divulged to you that young children cannot process negative commands, and they generally leave out “don’t” . This, again is VERY EASY to solve without violence. Instead of telling your child what NOT to do, tell them what to do.
Again your children are experiencing pain and violence as a result of your own unwillingness to understand them.
(snip)
post #38 of 126
Great letter Joline!!!

I couldn't help myself, I wrote another one under my husband's email address (with his ok)

Hello there.

I was shocked and dismayed to read your article on spanking. It was troubling indeed. I don't exactly know what I find more troubling: The fact that you resort to hitting small children as a means to gaining their obedience, or the fact that you willingly and proudly have no issue showing your readers your apparent incompetence and shortcomings in the areas of self control, critical thinking skills, positive conflict resolution, and anger management.

Being a parent is about having control. You, however, have been horribly misguided into believing that the control must be over your child instead of having control over yourself. You are expecting a young toddler and a preschooler to exhibit traits (self control, self discipline, respect) that you appear to lack yourself. How is that an effective teaching tool?

If your goal is blind obedience, I am sure you will achieve that until a certain age. There comes an age though, where threats, manipulation, and hitting will be ineffective. Around that same time, your children will have had enough experience around others to know that not all parents hit their children. That creates the inevitable situation where your previous parenting "tools" are not only ineffective, but you will also have to deal with the fact that your hitting them never taught positive communication. Where do you go from there? Military school?

I highly suggest mastering the traits you strive to teach your children before expecting them to.

All the situations you described in your article are the normal behaviors of curious young children. Is it your goal to extinguish their normal, happy exploration of their surroundings and replace it with fear of you? It may not be your goal, but it will become your result.

That, I can guarantee.

Captain (under hubbys name )
post #39 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by shanagirl
Ok -- so after dd said that we talked about spanking and she who is enamored with our new computer said, "Could I send an email to that lady?" So here is what she sent, no coaching from me other than asking, 'why' to her statements.
OK. I'm newly pregnant and entirely hormonal but her letter was so great that I just sat here and bawled my eyes out. What a great dd you have!
post #40 of 126
I can't read the link because I'm just so worn out on people hurting children right now that I feel like screaming.

Wonderful letters, though, everybody.
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