Logical Consquences - GD? or NOT GD? - Page 12

[captain crunchy]

Clearly, there is nothing to say

Well, I wanna say something. The OP gave a CLEAR description of a "natural consequence" in that she was okay with her child going hungry the rest of the night because he wouldn't eat during dinner or when food was offered shortly after because she believed he was engaging her in a power struggle and manipulating her to control her.

We have a different approach - and this is right out of Positive Discipline - if you don't eat your dinner during dinner time (which is a tactic in my household commonly used to delay bath and bedtime) - dinner ends at the appointed time - and you wait until the next meal to eat. Its not done with any shaming or any "I told you so" - and a lot of sympathy is given to the child and we try to focus on "OK DS - breakfast is the next meal - should we make your favorite pancakes for breakfast?" etc. etc. But the child is allowed to feel the natural consequences of not eating during mealtime - i.e. hungry.

(Emphasis mine)

Cool. NOW, it is being spun like oh, he didn't request food at all or even mention it, so he didn't go to bed hungry, I just didn't cook him another meal. Clear spin doctoring going on. Obviously there must have been some cues of hunger, or requests for food, otherwise the "natural" consequence imposed would be moot...you can't have a consequence when there is no action or inaction to produce on (i.e. the child not being hungry or requesting food). The OP said clearly that she said to her son "the next meal is breakfast" and something along the lines of "the result of not eating at the designated time is that you have the natural consequence of being hungry until morning (to us not her child).... so that would lead any reasonable person to believe that if there is a consequence, there must be a need or want that isn't being met (ie: hunger or request for food) ...

Now it is being magically spun like food was offererd, he didn't eat, he was happy as a clam and went to bed without another word. That may be true, but then there was no "consequence" if he wasn't hungry or requesting food. Obviously, he must have been asking and/or hungry for the comments of "the next meal is breakfast" and for the OP to say the consequence of not eating at mealtime is hunger til morning.

To me, that is withholding food. I am not saying she is starving her child, but withholding food until morning is still something I would never do if my child expressed hunger and wanted something to eat. Obviously the OP is cool with it, so that is her business I guess.

...So what were we supposed to take from that quote? Namely the bolded parts???

[Chicky2]

I think this thread should be printed out by you mama's who have only one child so far. Read it again every 3 yrs or so and see how your views change.

Disclaimer.....not in any way, shape, or form trying to offend anyone or say you are any less of a parent just because you are only in the beginning of your parenting. I was there once myself.

[~member~]

Originally Posted by writermommy

You could also give the baby a washable marker and sit with her, rather than just not letting her have it at all. Little ones naturally want to do what the older ones are doing and are allowed to explore in my house.

I threw all the markers away and each child, including the ten month old, has their own Magna doodle. Saves paper, saves trees, and I have a digital camera to take pics of their drawings, again, saving paper and unecessary chemicals.

I am not saying that is how every house should be, just sharing what my home is like.

There are park programs here that offer paints, clay, markers, etc. for artists. Some things I don't need to have in my home. Doesn't mean they don't have oppportunities to learn elsewhere.

[captain crunchy]

I think this thread should be printed out by you mama's who have only one child so far. Read it again every 3 yrs or so and see how your views change

Being a mama of an only doesn't change certain strongly held beliefs...sure if I had 3 or 4 kids I may not be able to do everything...like sling them all at once, I get that... but there are a few things I wouldn't ever do. Withholding food until morning is one....

Spanking and such is another. I have heard that before too. "Oh it is easy to not spank when you have one child... wait until you have another..."

[writermommy]

Originally Posted by MamaInTheBoonies

I threw all the markers away and each child, including the ten month old, has their own Magna doodle. Saves paper, saves trees, and I have a digital camera to take pics of their drawings, again, saving paper and unecessary chemicals.

I am not saying that is how every house should be, just sharing what my home is like.

There are park programs here that offer paints, clay, markers, etc. for artists. Some things I don't need to have in my home. Doesn't mean they don't have oppportunities to learn elsewhere.

We have magna doodles too. And an Aqua Doodle. This dd #3 got for Christmas. You fill the "marker" with water and it draws blue on the mat. When the mat dries, the picture disappears. The mat is large and we spread it on the kitchen floor to draw.

Mine would see getting rid of the markers as a punishment. THey love to draw with all different colors and mail pictures to their grandfather in Florida. Sometimes they have school projects that require using markers, crayons, colored pencils, etc. They have it all, just about every art thing you can imagine, we have. I love to encourage their creativity. They also have a 19 year old half sister, who is quite a talented artist. She would freak out if I didn't let them have all that stuff. (She'd probably buy it for them, if I didn't)

[captain crunchy]

I am an artist too, and I have everything you can imagine in my *tool kit*...markers, pens, colored pencils, charcoal pencils, oil pastels, paint, watercolor, clay... the list goes on...

I really hope our daughter likes art because she will have a field day (me too, I love art!)

I couldn't imagine my daughter only having a magna doodle for her artistic outlet...but to each their own!

[~member~]

Originally Posted by writermommy

We have magna doodles too. And an Aqua Doodle. This dd #3 got for Christmas. You fill the "marker" with water and it draws blue on the mat. When the mat dries, the picture disappears. The mat is large and we spread it on the kitchen floor to draw.

Mine would see getting rid of the markers as a punishment. THey love to draw with all different colors and mail pictures to their grandfather in Florida. Sometimes they have school projects that require using markers, crayons, colored pencils, etc. They have it all, just about every art thing you can imagine, we have. I love to encourage their creativity. They also have a 19 year old half sister, who is quite a talented artist. She would freak out if I didn't let them have all that stuff. (She'd probably buy it for them, if I didn't)

That's cool! We are not very big on art, but huge on music. We have just about every musical instrument you can think of, including Aboriginal and NA instruments. My kids put on concerts. Complete with hair-do's, outfits, and sequenced dance moves. They even include the baby, it is too cute!
They write all their own music, songs, and do all their own choreography. One of these days I am gonna figure out how to get video on the computer and share.

[johub]

It just goes to show how different we all are.
I have no qualms about telling my 3 year old that his next meal is breakfast if he refuses to eat anything at dinner (providing of course that I always serve at least one thing he likes) But I would consider them ill used indeed if they didnt have markers/crayons, paints, playdoh etc. in addition to their magna doodles. (although in the car, we do limit art to magna doodles)
It takes all kinds to make the world go round.
And none of our brains are wired just the same.

[~member~]

Originally Posted by johub

It just goes to show how different we all are.
I have no qualms about telling my 3 year old that his next meal is breakfast if he refuses to eat anything at dinner (providing of course that I always serve at least one thing he likes)

Originally Posted by johub

But I would consider them ill used indeed if they didnt have markers/crayons, paints, playdoh etc. in addition to their magna doodles.
It takes all kinds to make the world go round.
And none of our brains are wired just the same.

Just because they are not in the home, does not mean they never use them. They are extremely gifted artists and come from a long line of famous artists.
I would not call a family "ill-used" if they did not have several different musical instruments, as music is the heartbeat of my very culture.

[writermommy]

Originally Posted by johub

It just goes to show how different we all are.
I have no qualms about telling my 3 year old that his next meal is breakfast if he refuses to eat anything at dinner (providing of course that I always serve at least one thing he likes) But I would consider them ill used indeed if they didnt have markers/crayons, paints, playdoh etc. in addition to their magna doodles. (although in the car, we do limit art to magna doodles)
It takes all kinds to make the world go round.
And none of our brains are wired just the same.

We have the magna doodle only in the car rule too. This had to be instituted after daddy found melted crayons in the car in the summer! Mommy was in trouble that day!

[johub]

Originally Posted by MamaInTheBoonies

Just because they are not in the home, does not mean they never use them. They are extremely gifted artists and come from a long line of famous artists.
I would not call a family "ill-used" if they did not have several different musical instruments, as music is the heartbeat of my very culture.

Indeed Mamaintheboonies. I do not consider YOUR family Ill used at all.
I only consider that MINE woudl be if that was the case.
I had hoped I had made the distinction clear that I was distinguishing my values as different from, yours, but no more or less valid.
This was not an attempt to debate but to accept that we are all indeed different, and have different values and what a splendid thign for the world that that is.

[Dragonfly]

Originally Posted by Chicky2

I think this thread should be printed out by you mama's who have only one child so far. Read it again every 3 yrs or so and see how your views change.

Oh good grief. That is the most condescending, ridiculous remark.

Parenting is parenting. I've taken care of 4 children 4 and under full-time. It didn't change my style that much. This idea that you have to suddenly start denying your child food because he's 1 of 4 instead of 1 of 1 is just silly.

Tell you what: Those of you with many children who don't work outside of the house, why don't you print this out for when you get a job, go to graduate school, and parent all at the same time.

Silly, right? I think so, too.

[TripMom]

Originally Posted by Dragonfly

This idea that you have to suddenly start denying your child food because he's 1 of 4 instead of 1 of 1 is just silly.

Honestly . . . . . . . . we are still on the tripmom starves her children bandwagon . . . ?

[TripMom]

Originally Posted by captain crunchy

"Oh it is easy to not spank when you have one child... wait until you have another..."

OMG! I would never use the fact that I had more than one child as a reason to justify spanking them? Please read the stickys . . . spanking discussion is not allowed here.


. . . . how does it feel?

[TripMom]

Originally Posted by MamaInTheBoonies

Just because they are not in the home, does not mean they never use them. They are extremely gifted artists and come from a long line of famous artists.
I would not call a family "ill-used" if they did not have several different musical instruments, as music is the heartbeat of my very culture.

MITB - how on earth were you able to criticize this post by Johub - so clearly intended to try and bring us all together after a very polarizing thread . . . .?

[captain crunchy]

. . . . how does it feel?

Wow, a nerve was struck eh?

MITB how on earth were you able to criticize this post by Johub - so clearly intended to try and bring us all together after a very polarizing thread . . . .?

The same way you just did? I was responding to someone else about something completely different...oh and by the way, I did quote your ENTIRE post concerning you *discipline* techniques... I would appreciate you quoting my whole post if you want to make some kind of *point*.

[Dragonfly]

Originally Posted by TripMom

Honestly . . . . . . . . ???

Yes, honestly. I don't understand this idea that your child's quality of life has to go down because you choose to have more children or that your basic principles of child-rearing (i.e., core ideas pertaining to respect, etc.) have to shift. I'm sure there are growing pains, things will get out of whack for awhile. But to justify certain less than gentle practices as necessary just because you have more than one child?

For the majority of the past few years, I've been working 2 to 3 jobs at any given time, going to law school, and doing various volunteer and community projects. I also went through a divorce last year and have had some health problems that have made life more stressful. All those things have thrown us off and all have made parenting more difficult. But it's my #1 priority to make sure I continue to treat my son with respect and raise him in a manner consistent with my principles. I guess it would be easier to say, "Sorry kid, I've got too many other things to contend with, too many other things demanding my attention... I just can't give you what you need." I just can't imagine doing that. And I'd hope that if I did, someone would remind me that my job as a parent is to make sure that my child has 100%, even if it means I have to give 557% total.

[TripMom]

Originally Posted by captain crunchy

Wow, a nerve was struck eh?

To say the least . . . . ?

[TripMom]

Originally Posted by captain crunchy

Wow, a nerve was struck eh?




The same way you just did? I was responding to someone else about something completely different...oh and by the way, I did quote your ENTIRE post concerning you *discipline* techniques... I would appreciate you quoting my whole post if you want to make some kind of *point*.

The point I was making about spanking. You should keep your spanking inclinations to yourself. This is a GD board and we do not want to engage in any discussions about spanking.

[~member~]

Originally Posted by TripMom

MITB - how on earth were you able to criticize this post by Johub - so clearly intended to try and bring us all together after a very polarizing thread . . . .?

It was not clear that she was speaking of just her family. it sounded like she thought that any family who did not provide drawing utensils was "ill-used".

Some families cannot afford such items and their children have grown to be quite famous artists.
I have learned that if a child wants to draw, they will no matter what is or is not available. Same with music, writing, and creating art.

For a long time pots, pans, spoons, doors, walls, rubberbands on shoeboxes, were all my children had for instruments.