Can we talk about this forum? - Page 8

[DevaMajka]

PaganScribe- wonderful post- great points!

Originally Posted by Piglet68

6) remember that for some people, especially those who are "newly converted" to AP or GD, they can be really, really zealous about it. Not because they are horrible, judgemental people at all, but because they are just so excited and passionate about this whole new view on life that they have found, that they can't WAIT to share it with others. It happened to me and I've seen it in countless newbies on this board, where they are just zealous and they offend without realizing it or meaning to be hurtful or rude; they just get a bit overboard and lost in their own passion and fail to see that spreading the word is about compassion and understanding and connecting, not alienating and insulting and demonizing. In other words, their hearts are in the right place, but they need examples of how to discuss with understanding. I learned that from wonderful role models when I first came here. Now I try to model that myself.

Definitely that!

[Piglet68]

You know what else I find interesting? On boards where people have met IRL, you rarely get any sort of flaming or bad threads. In my "local MDC tribe" forum we are overly polite and respectful, easily apologize for anything misconstrued...but that rarely happens. It's really interesting to see how differently people act (post) when it's a real person on the other end that you know and will run into from time to time.

I think sometimes people find it therapeutic to "lash out" online because there is no "real person" and it allows them to be the person they are afraid to be IRL. Like for me, I'm a very non-confrontational person - I don't have the constitution to engage in conflict with people I don't know extremely well. It can feel a bit therapeutic sometimes to take a more aggressive stance online, sort of "get in touch with my inner bitch", IYKWIM.

I think if we "regulars" model the kind of behaviour we want to see here, by pointing out offenses politely, and by apologizing when we've made them (or at least clarifying), then we will influence how new people coming here will behave.

[writermommy]

Originally Posted by Piglet68

You know what else I find interesting? On boards where people have met IRL, you rarely get any sort of flaming or bad threads. In my "local MDC tribe" forum we are overly polite and respectful, easily apologize for anything misconstrued...but that rarely happens. It's really interesting to see how differently people act (post) when it's a real person on the other end that you know and will run into from time to time.

I think sometimes people find it therapeutic to "lash out" online because there is no "real person" and it allows them to be the person they are afraid to be IRL. Like for me, I'm a very non-confrontational person - I don't have the constitution to engage in conflict with people I don't know extremely well. It can feel a bit therapeutic sometimes to take a more aggressive stance online, sort of "get in touch with my inner bitch", IYKWIM.

I think if we "regulars" model the kind of behaviour we want to see here, by pointing out offenses politely, and by apologizing when we've made them (or at least clarifying), then we will influence how new people coming here will behave.

Great post Piglet! You put my thoughts into words here. The anonymity of the internet makes it much easier to be more aggressive than most people would be in a face to face conversation. I just wanted to say I agree with your post completely, and loved the idea of "getting in touch with the inner bitch"

[Fuamami]

Originally Posted by Piglet68

You know what else I find interesting? On boards where people have met IRL, you rarely get any sort of flaming or bad threads. In my "local MDC tribe" forum we are overly polite and respectful, easily apologize for anything misconstrued...but that rarely happens. It's really interesting to see how differently people act (post) when it's a real person on the other end that you know and will run into from time to time.

I think sometimes people find it therapeutic to "lash out" online because there is no "real person" and it allows them to be the person they are afraid to be IRL. Like for me, I'm a very non-confrontational person - I don't have the constitution to engage in conflict with people I don't know extremely well. It can feel a bit therapeutic sometimes to take a more aggressive stance online, sort of "get in touch with my inner bitch", IYKWIM.

I think if we "regulars" model the kind of behaviour we want to see here, by pointing out offenses politely, and by apologizing when we've made them (or at least clarifying), then we will influence how new people coming here will behave.

And then, maybe, we'll be less likely to lash out at our kids. So, maybe, we should actually be MEANER to each other!

Just kidding, I think this is a great point, and a great thread. I think it's interesting that people on both sides of the "coercion" fence have said that they feel outnumbered and undervalued, and that the other side's trying to run them off. It's just such an emotionally loaded issue.

[writermommy]

I agree it is emotionally charged, which is the root of the problem. Whenever a person feels passionately about something, as we all do about parenting/discipline, you are more likely to state those beliefs vocally and forcefully. In most cases, not meaning to offend or drive anyone away, but just because we all do feel so strongly about our individual style. It's easy to get carried away by that passion and forget the person on the receiving end.

[johub]

Originally Posted by PaganScribe

First, I don't have a problem with someone who says "I think timeouts are damaging to children." It's an opinion; I'm sure it's reasoned; it's not disrespectful or awful or judgemental or whatever. It's no different than saying "I think spanking is damaging to children" or "I think vaccines are damaging to children."

So, I absolutely agree with the idea that we should be gentle with each other and that we should not make inflammatory statements -- but we're all going to have different opinions of what "inflammatory statements" are. Johub apparently thinks that the above statement is not respectful. I disagree; I don't think there's anything disrespectful about it. So simply saying "We should all be careful how we word things and be respectful of each other and be diplomatic" isn't really going to be helpful, IMO, because we are all going to have different opinons of what those things are.

.

I am sorry you have misunderstood, so I will restate. I think that clarifying a belief with an "I think" or an "I believe" IS the way to go to make statements that are diplomatic. I was advocating this very thing.
It is my belief that the statement "time outs are damaging to children" is less diplomatic than "I believe timeouts to be damaging to children".
When somebody tells me that time outs are damaging to children, and I have already said that I use time out, this makes me feel that it is implied that I am damaging my children. Which is something I would vehemently argue against.
However if somebody says "I believe timeouts are damaging to children" I have nothing to argue, because they have a right to their beliefs andto apply them to their children.
It is my perceptions that statements of belief are unique and individual and are to be applied by that person to their lives. Statements of "fact" are to be applied to all.
I may be unique in this perceptoin however.
And I agree 100% with Piglet it is important to realize that not everybody who comes here has learned how to communicate effectively and diplomatically (yet, it improves with time certainly) and they have every right to be here and express their thoughts. (and just about the rest of your post I agree with too. Lots of things to keep in mind)
Joline

[johub]

ON second thought. I dont think there is any way to explain this thought or idea in a way which is not very likely to be offensive or taken personally by some, even if I mean to be as neutral as possible, so I deleted it.

[Soundhunter]

This thread is so long, read a couple of pages into it, one post by you Joline, had me nodding.

As an adult survivor of child abuse, I think it's really over the top what some people call child abuse around here. I also think it's very valid for people to get their backs up if people suggest that commonly accepted GD parenting practises are child abuse. Calling something Child Abuse is an extremely strong statement, and in my opinion, it's lame lame lame lame and extremely disrespectful to true survivors of child abuse to toss this term around in order to add juice to a strong opinion.

I was in the Canadian child and family services system from 13-18 yrs old and spent time with some very severely abused children who would be grossly offended at how easily that term is tossed around in this place.

I personally appreciate reading diverse interpretations of GD here, this place would suck if there was only one narrow definition of what was acceptable GD. Well, since I haven't read the last few pages I'm sure my post is really out of touch with where the thread's at now, so on with your regulalry scheduled programming.

[mamakay]

Aaaahh..
I've read this whole thread and a few similar other ones, and I'm still not sure what is and isn't "gd".
Ergo, I'm not sure if I'm practicing what is known as GD.
I guess I'm closer to the "logical consequences are sometimes ok" group. Like, when my 2 yo is flipping out I'll every once in a while put him in "time out" for maybe 15 seconds beside me on the couch till he agrees to talk.
Or if he throws something at me out of anger, I put it on the shelf till he gets that we don't throw stuff at people, which is about 10-15 seconds after whatever happened.
(btw, I am looking for alternatives. Please feel free to post ideas about what else I could do. Right now this method is working about 50/50.)
Anyway, I'm not sure I belong here.
While I have no desire to just "control" my child, sometimes his 2yoldness is totally unacceptable, and his throwing stuff at people needs some tempering.
I understand that it's just him being 2. I'm not expecting him to be 4. It's just a matter of me communicating to him that "If you hurl that firetruck at your great-grandmother, it's going on the shelf until you're calm enough to not throw it at people.
And I've found that just mentoning that I'll put the thrown object on the shelf till he agrees to not throw it at someone makes him reconsider throwing it in the first place.

[aira]

Originally Posted by Soundhunter

As an adult survivor of child abuse, I think it's really over the top what some people call child abuse around here. I also think it's very valid for people to get their backs up if people suggest that commonly accepted GD parenting practises are child abuse. Calling something Child Abuse is an extremely strong statement, and in my opinion, it's lame lame lame lame and extremely disrespectful to true survivors of child abuse to toss this term around in order to add juice to a strong opinion.

I've never been able to understand this thinking... that differing degrees of something make lesser degrees invalid.

I'm also a survivor of serious abuse and psychological torture. In no way whatsoever do I feel a diminishing of my experience because others were "less abused" than I was. And it's really unfair to them to invalidate what harmed them just beacuse you had it worse.

I suppose that holocaust survivors wouldn't consider my childhood abusive in camparison to their abuse. But that doesn't make it not abuse. There are degrees of everything and they are not linearly comparable. I'm actually disturbed that people try to do that.

If a person is/was harmed by an act commited on them, they were harmed. End of story. No one else gets to decide if they were.

[PaganScribe]

Originally Posted by johub

I am sorry you have misunderstood, so I will restate. I think that clarifying a belief with an "I think" or an "I believe" IS the way to go to make statements that are diplomatic. I was advocating this very thing.
It is my belief that the statement "time outs are damaging to children" is less

Ah, I did misunderstand. In the examples that I remembered you using as diplmatic, I was remembering you saying "In my family . . . " or "For my child . . ." I think those are completely different statments than "I believe xxx is wrong" because they are not qualified in some way. Looking back, I see that I was just remembering in a distorted way.

My apologies for the misunderstanding.

[Piglet68]

a bit off topic but....aira, I've never heard that POV expressed as you did. that was a very eloquent post and it gave me something to think about...

[Kira's mom]

I have to admit that at times i've thought things have gone a bit too far,and then low and behold i open my mind and start learning something new! I find that this forum is a mind opening experience.There is so much to learn in this world every day.I also feel that the posters are a pretty strong bunch of parents with alot to say. I, myself am pretty sensitive.It can be difficult to be strong/weak all at once.For the most part i don't think anyone is intentionally trying to cause hurt.As a pp said (in so many words)it would be nice if we treated others on this board with the same respect as we purport to treat our children.I couldn't have put it better.

[monkey's mom]

I've been thinking about this thread, this forum, and my part in both.

I would like to apologize if people have been hurt or offended by anything I've said here. Truly, I'm sorry. It's not ever my intent to cause anyone bad feelings.

And, I've been thinking about why that may have happened and if I have been rude here, etc. And I realized that I often do get frustrated here. And then I've tried to discern why.

Firstly, I don't think I've realized how shocking (and almost like a betrayal) it is for me to read about discipline practices by other GD moms, that don't seem gentle *to me.* It's one thing to go to a mainstream board and read all sorts of things that make me cringe--I guess I expect it. I don't feel the same kinship to those posters, like I do here. It just doesn't bother me as much. But when I hear it here, I just feel awful. I feel threatened, I think. Threatened that I may no longer be in the right place. Which is why I felt so badly when people suggested that we leave or move.

The second reason I think I've felt so frustrated here, is that I'm really tired of seeing (or posting, myself) a non-coercive suggestion to a situation and having someone say, "Yeah, RIGHT! I'll just let them do whatever they want all the time. B/c that's the real world!" Or some such response. It's hard to continue a dialogue after that, you know? But, I also feel it's important not to just let misperception remain. So, I probably get a bit defensive and stridant and posty trying to clarify how it really can work.

Anyway, I am going to work on identifying and changing my behavior in these situations.

And my apologies, again.

[Jish]

I miss the good old days of years gone by.

I think that many of us forget that the name of this forum is Gentle Discipline. Some people will see gentle discipline as positive reinforcement, gentle timeouts when needed and logical consequences. Some people will see gentle discipline as only natural consequences and absolutely no coersion. Frankly, I think we are forgetting the "discipline" part of the title, it's not Gentle Parenting. I don't have a problem at all with a parent coming here and asking for advice on how to make time out work more effectively for them. Here is where I feel the problem lies. It seems like so much of the time we feel the need to "convert" people from their "ignorance," and thus we get in on the thread and start talking about how damaging we feel timeouts are and how if they would try our way life would be peachy.

What we forget is that perhaps the poster has read the non-coersive parenting posts but still feels that timeouts are the way to go. What is wrong with that parent being able to discuss timeout with other parents who want to responsibly practice time out. Some people don't punish, some do, as long as we are all gentle in our discipline we should be able to post. There is a vast plain of what is considered Gentle Discipline on the spectrum. Just because we don't agree with something doesn't necessarily mean that everyone who does it is wrong. Yet that seems to be the sentiment that is so often seen.

Why is it so hard to not post to a timeout thread if you don't practice timeout. Why do we all feel the need to prove how GD we are and convert everyone to our precise way of parenting. Can parents who practice time out, not coexist with those who practice TCS? Can we not understand that what is gentle discipline to one may be coersive to another, yet that doesn't make either of them "right?" The older I (and my children) get, and the more life and parenting experience I have under my belt the more I realize how these petty arguements mean nothing in the long run. The parents who practice time out and set limits are no less loving or AP to their children than the parents who practice non-coersive parenting. On the flip side, those children who had limits and gasp -- punishments on occasion don't love their parents any less than those who never had limits or punishment.

I don't think that we should all have to have read a particular book or author to post on the GD board. How boring would it be if we all had the exact same parenting ideals. Heck, we wouldn't need this board. What we need to remember is that it is okay that we all choose to raise our children a little bit differently. If I choose to set limits, bedtimes, and use timeout, it doesn't make me a lesser parent than you who might choose to parent non-coersively. I also don't feel that anyone should feel I'm doing it "wrong" just because I'm not doing it their way. After all, my parenting has evolved and continues to as I become a more experienced parent.

I guess what I don't understand is why we can't have a more varied set of topics without everyone feeling that they need to make their opinions known on topics they don't agree with. I read many posts that I don't agree with the theory, but you know what, I respect the opinions of the posters, and their right to have those opinions and feel that way. I don't feel they are wrong in their parenting, if it works for them, great. I don't feel the need to try to convince them that their life would be easier if they would set a bedtime for their child, or take away the crayons if the wall has marks on it. We don't feel the same way, and I feel it's disrespectful as well as useless to try to make them feel exactly as I do. My way isn't their way, and that's okay.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Reading with interest...GD is my favorite forum on MDC. I love the hot debates here and I love the threads where parents are getting loving support in a time of need. They're not always so great when combined though : )

[Dechen]

Piglet, you are my hero.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Originally Posted by Piglet68

You know what else I find interesting? On boards where people have met IRL, you rarely get any sort of flaming or bad threads. In my "local MDC tribe" forum we are overly polite and respectful, easily apologize for anything misconstrued...but that rarely happens. It's really interesting to see how differently people act (post) when it's a real person on the other end that you know and will run into from time to time.

It's definitely different for me. It's because I don't like to disagree with people I know in IRL and because I don't take advice well from people I know IRL. I like to get and give here. Also because I'm more comfortable talking about new ideas with people I don't know well...fewer expectations and all. I was just talking about MDC to a friend and how much I appreciated talking about issues with people who didn't have preconceived ideas about me and my life. It's therapeutic in a way. Now if they'd only make a coupling.commune

I finished reading and wanted to say how sorry I am to read that people feel uncomfortable here. I've always felt really comfortable in the GD forum because I get thoughtful advice and stimulating discussions.

What I noticed and what I was alluding to in my first post is that they're not always best when combined. I do think there is a certain amount of obligation to respect the OP if they are discussing their personal life and their discipline struggles. While I know that respect and support can take different forms, ongoing unwanted debate about a member's personal life as the subject is rude, imo. If a person shares something for support only, or for only one kind of advice or if they become uncomfortable then the conversation should continue on neutral territory. JMO.

I'm also sorry to see the debate over the TCS and...is there a name for this...PD, authoritative...regular GD? I didn't see if this was mentioned but I think TCS was actually banned here for a while. And, I'm surprised because, although I'm not TCS, I find it really interesting and I've always appreciated the perspective. I also appreciate the perspective from the more authoritative parents here.

Anyway, I can see that this conversation is maybe coming to and end and I know there have been a lot of wise words. I also hope that we can find a way to make everyone feel welcome and comfortable. Hugs, mamas.