Curing Cavities with Nutrition - Page 5

[FreeRangeMama]

Originally Posted by JaneS

Are they bothering you? If not, leave them alone I think.

http://www.toothwisdom.net/w.is_it_wisdom.html

Thanks for the link. They ARE bothering me though. I was hoping it was just pain from them growing in......

I just think all their "reasons" sound fishy but haven't had much luck finding good, solid research or info as to when they would need to come out. I can't afford a dentist anyway so it hardly matters at the moment

[JaneS]

I know what you mean... really the only foundation I would trust now would be the Price Pottenger Institute but I don't see any articles listed. Check to see if they have any books on it. I can't find my copy of Briener's Whole Body Dentistry, maybe check your library for it?
http://www.wholebodydentistry.com/

My dentist offers some advice re: impacted wisdom teeth
http://www.grotondentalwellness.com/impacted.htm

[CluckyInAZ]

dh just sprouted impacted wisdom teeth this year. They are under his tongue in his mouth, they came up right in the middle there. Well, just the sides came up because they are impacted. We don't have any dental insurance and no $ and they aren't giving him any pain. That is scary to think that the roots are getting longer and might cause him trouble...
Anyone else have impacted wisdom teeth and didn't have any problems with them long term? Maybe that is too hopeful?

[moneca]

I ordered the toothsoap. I was using a mix of sea salt, ground cloves, clove oil, and peppermint oil. I liked it (no tarter feelings), but was worried that the sea salt might be messing with my enamel. I want to try this on dd too since her Weleda has glycerin in it.
Jane - I was just thinking back to the study Price did on the mission children. Have no clue how much vit A/D they got. They ate crap for breakfast and dinner, but had 1/2 tsp CLO/HVB with a nutrient dense meal for lunch. I remember many things improving including their carries.
What happens when Luke takes the butter oil? That is such a bummer!
I have failed to find nutritional information on raw pastured jersey milk. Dr. Schmid didn't even have it! Has anyone run by this information? I'd love to have it.

[JaneS]

I wasn't sure if the butter oil was causing loose stool in DS or not ... sometimes I cannot correlate with a cause at all so it seemed better to be prudent now.

I've finally gotten ahold of a consistent source of raw grass fed goat's butter and milk now from our awesome Amish farm in PA. Apparently *all* the beta carotene in goat's milk is converted to vitamin A (which is why the milk and butter is white instead of creamy yellow like cow's), which is a good thing so that means there is more A in goat's milk products. Since all mammal milk contains the X Factor, including human, goat's must too.

I'd love to see the real nutritional stats for raw milk. This the one that compares cow and goat but it's probably not grass fed based. Since I know all milk, even human milk, is very variable according to the diet of the mother.
http://drinc.ucdavis.edu/goat1_new.htm

Will keep my eyes open. Have you checked the Raw Milk Yahoo group?

How do you like the Toothsoap so far? DS only likes it with a drop of liquid stevia, our one concession. I've heard that stevia is antimicrobial. I don't like to give him a lot of it b/c I'm still on the fence about it with kids, so a couple drops/day is ok right now.

I'm still stumped by this calculus issue. He visits the dentist again in a couple weeks. Last time (she is a Price-Pottenger member) she said it was magnesium, so I've been trying my hardest to get mag. into him but it's been really hard as you know.

I got ahold of a old PPNF newsletter about calculus and the acid/alkaline balance of the body that talked about using bile salts to shift body's ph and that cures it. It also talks about the saturated fats in your diet regulating the minerals and ph level in your body, but digestion can be key to this as well, whether your bile is emulsifying the fats. All of this is a bit over my head and out of my league too right now. Just sitting with the info until our other stuff pans out.

[Summertime Mommy]

I have read through this entire thread but not the links yet, and I have a few questions. So, please bear with me. When I looked for raw milk in my area, it all says "for pet consumption only due to state law." Should I buy it and use it anyway, assuming that it is sterile? How would I even know? Also, my dd is 18 months old, how do I know how much CLO to give? I am wonderring the same thing for my older kids too (2.5, 5, and 7). Is there a recommended dosage somewhere or something? As far as other dietary changes, I know you all have been recommending organ meat, but what about fruit and veggies? Should I cut back fruit because of the sugar content? My youngest has really bad dental caries on her front top teeth, I brush them alot and I even let her play with a toothbrush, for that extra little bit of scrubbing she may get in, but it looks like she may still have a few more cavities developing. Changing her diet, is really a last resort. We see the dentist in July, but I would like to try and do all that I can between then and now to prevent things from worsenning. So, anyway, if anyone could help answer my questions it would be greatly appreciated. Also, if there are any good books on this topic, I would love recommendations on those as well. Thanks a lot.

[moneca]

Originally Posted by Summertime Mommy

I have read through this entire thread but not the links yet, and I have a few questions. So, please bear with me. When I looked for raw milk in my area, it all says "for pet consumption only due to state law." Should I buy it and use it anyway, assuming that it is sterile? How would I even know? Also, my dd is 18 months old, how do I know how much CLO to give? I am wonderring the same thing for my older kids too (2.5, 5, and 7). Is there a recommended dosage somewhere or something? As far as other dietary changes, I know you all have been recommending organ meat, but what about fruit and veggies? Should I cut back fruit because of the sugar content? My youngest has really bad dental caries on her front top teeth, I brush them alot and I even let her play with a toothbrush, for that extra little bit of scrubbing she may get in, but it looks like she may still have a few more cavities developing. Changing her diet, is really a last resort. We see the dentist in July, but I would like to try and do all that I can between then and now to prevent things from worsenning. So, anyway, if anyone could help answer my questions it would be greatly appreciated. Also, if there are any good books on this topic, I would love recommendations on those as well. Thanks a lot.

Summertime Mommy - One of the first times I bought raw milk I noticed the label said the same thing as yours. I had a feeling this was for legal protection so I called the farmer to ask if her milk should only be fed to animals or was she covering herself legally. She had quite a good chuckle and told me that she had never known of anyone feeding her milk to animals (she provided organic 100% pastured raw jersey milk). I'm sure your case is the same, but calling the farmer would be a good idea. I always throw a bunch of questions at them before I decide on their milk. I try to visit the farms too so I can get a good feeling of how sanitary they are.
I believe raw fruits and vegetables (esp.) are important. I know that the thought of overhauling anybody's diet - esp. a young child - can be overwhelming. You're very fortunate that you have this option while your child is still relatively healthy. Both Jane and I came to WP eating through a long road of trial and error with our kid's health issues. WP discusses the importance of a nutrient dense diet in maintaining and repairing the body esp. dental caries. IMO Nutrition and Physical Degeneration is the most worthwhile book I have read in the last two years. It can be ordered from the Price Pottinger foundation. http://www.ppnf.org/catalog/product_...roducts_id=226

I received my tooth soap yesterday. Sorry, but it tastes like CRAP! I felt like I had just opened a caprylic acid capsule in my mouth. Perhaps I'll get used to it. I liked the Perfect Prescription for Your Teeth. I had not realized that the woman behind the product started the journey by reading N&PD. Sweet! I wish I had a dollar for each time I've read that one eating by WP standards had wrecked their health by living according to a vegan/vegetarian lifestyle and had come back around by eating nutrient dense foods.
I was hesitant regarding more supplements as suggested by the pamphlet. I just can't get the mission school story out of my head. Those kids ate donuts and coffee with milk/sugar two meals per day. They improved dramatically because of ONE nutrient dense meal preceeded by CLO/BO. I think that our advanced technology has caused us to over inspect everything. It makes me crazy at times..

Jane - Yes, thanks for the link. Let me know if you ever find one looking at raw pastured jersey/nubian milk. One farmer that I got pastured jersey milk from told me that she sent off milk analysis for each of her cows. They all ate the same amount of pasture. The milk fat varied anywhere from 5% to 7.5% depending on the cow. I'm playing with the idea of getting the lab info from her and sending some of the milk we're getting off in a test tube. Like I need to spend more money just to satisfy my curiosity

[JaneS]

Caught this nutritional nugget in Nourishing Traditions this morning (that book has so much detail, it's like I'll never absorb it all!)

It is magnesium, not calcium, that helps form hard tooth enamel, resistant to decay...

Although it is in many foods, including dairy products, nuts, vegetables, fish, meat and seafood, [Jane note: and whole grains] deficiencies are common in America due to soil depletion, poor absorption and lack of minerals in drinking water. A diet high in carbohydrates, oxalic acid in foods like raw spinach and phytic acid found in whole grains [and nuts and especially soy too] can cause deficiencies. And excellent source of usable magnesium is beef, chicken or fish broth... Magnesium deficiency can result in coronary heart disease, chronic weight loss, obesity, fatigue, epilepsy and impaired brain function. [and anxiety, insomnia, irritability, restless legs, irregular heartbeat and constipation.] Chocolate cravings are a sign of magnesium deficiency.

Mag. and vit. D deficiencies are so very common. Some studies showing 50-70% in women of child bearing age. Mag. is greatly reduced by drinking soda (the phosphoric acid in it depletes mag.) and coffee.

Why people still insist tooth decay is genetic is quite beyond me.

P.S. My favorite mag. supplement is Natural Calm, very well absorbed.

[JaneS]

Jenna,

I don't think fruit is so much of an issue so much as refined sugar which depletes minerals and fruit juice. Vegetables are truly important for health, but for teeth the research here seems to say its the fat soluble vitamins and minerals in the diet that are key.

Like Moneca mentions, the boys in the above experiment ate sugar and other poor food, yet the bacterial concetrations in the mouth went down and teeth started remineralizing all based on that one meal. And the book, Nutrition and Physical Degeneration describes many native people who did not brush their teeth at all and had no cavities.

More on cod liver oil dosage here: http://www.westonaprice.org/basicnut...fications.html

P.S. Nourishing Traditions is a very worthwhile book to get too.

[JaneS]

Originally Posted by moneca

I received my tooth soap yesterday. Sorry, but it tastes like CRAP!

What kind did you get? There are new flavors and raw honey versions. The regular shreds taste very neutral to me. Are you using a lot, you need just a tiny bit b/c it foams like crazy.

Originally Posted by moneca

I liked the Perfect Prescription for Your Teeth. I had not realized that the woman behind the product started the journey by reading N&PD. Sweet! I wish I had a dollar for each time I've read that one eating by WP standards had wrecked their health by living according to a vegan/vegetarian lifestyle and had come back around by eating nutrient dense foods.

Originally Posted by moneca

I'm playing with the idea of getting the lab info from her and sending some of the milk we're getting off in a test tube. Like I need to spend more money just to satisfy my curiosity

Have you seen this link below? It has a little chart comparing raw vs. pasteurized but not exactly what you are looking for:

SUPPLEMENTAL REPORT IN FAVOR OF RAW MILK
http://www.karlloren.com/aajonus/p15.htm

[artisticat]

Jane, do you take a calcium supplement too? I am feeling that I definetely need more magnesium, but not sure whether to get cal/mag together or just try the mag. I do lots of bone broths and 24 yogurt. Do you think that is enough calcium?

[mamasgirls]

Originally Posted by JaneS

Caught this nutritional nugget in Nourishing Traditions this morning (that book has so much detail, it's like I'll never absorb it all!)



Mag. and vit. D deficiencies are so very common. Some studies showing 50-70% in women of child bearing age. Mag. is greatly reduced by drinking soda (the phosphoric acid in it depletes mag.) and coffee.

Why people still insist tooth decay is genetic is quite beyond me.

P.S. My favorite mag. supplement is Natural Calm, very well absorbed.

I find this very, very interesting. Just a quick question- is the magnesium deficiency more of an issue while the teeth are forming in utero, or after they are already in the mouth? I guess what I am trying to say is if I had a mag. deficiency, would that be more of an issue for teeth forming while I am pregnant, or the lack of mag. in the baby's diet, or lack of mag. in my milk supply? Or would it be more of a factor for my own teeth? Do prenatal vitamins alone (meaning no other vitamin/mineral supplements- not including diet) help with the magnesium levels while pregnant?

I haven't read through this entire thread, so forgive me if this has already been mentioned- I am still reading and learning everything I can about why my daughter may have had her tooth decay so young. And also why my older daughter has no tooth decay and I also have none.

Thanks in advance

[JaneS]

Originally Posted by artisticat

Jane, do you take a calcium supplement too? I am feeling that I definetely need more magnesium, but not sure whether to get cal/mag together or just try the mag. I do lots of bone broths and 24 yogurt. Do you think that is enough calcium?

Yes that should be enough. I just supplement with mag. b/c I do broths and raw milk too. Folk wisdom says there is as much calcium in a cup of bone broth as a quart of milk but I have not seen confirmation of that.

[JaneS]

Originally Posted by mamasgirls

I find this very, very interesting. Just a quick question- is the magnesium deficiency more of an issue while the teeth are forming in utero, or after they are already in the mouth? I guess what I am trying to say is if I had a mag. deficiency, would that be more of an issue for teeth forming while I am pregnant, or the lack of mag. in the baby's diet, or lack of mag. in my milk supply? Or would it be more of a factor for my own teeth? Do prenatal vitamins alone (meaning no other vitamin/mineral supplements- not including diet) help with the magnesium levels while pregnant?

I'm pretty sure I've read the teeth form in utero. So levels during pregnancy is very important, maybe the most important I don't really know. But it certainly seems current diet also effects the health of the teeth for better or worse.

I don't think prenatals have enough mag. or the right type that is easily absorbable to make up for a deficiency. What is the mag. content of yours? In Rainbow Light for ex. it is mag. oxide, which is difficult to absorb, at only 100 mg. or 22% of the RDA. So really nothing.

I've seen it suggested to take around 1000 mg./day for a deficiency. Or the same amount of calcium rather than the commonly suggested 2:1 ratio.

Also it depends on what comprises the rest of your diet. If you drink soda and coffee for example. Or eat soy, nuts and whole grains which are not soaked/sprouted, the magnesium probably won't be absorbed at all. The scientific literature is pretty clear on phytates in the latter foods and how they inhibit mineral absorption (studies show the minerals just come right out in the stool).

[Annikate]

I have been wondering this same thing about teeth and when they form. I also wonder, if you step up your nutrition while nursing a babe does that mean that their adult teeth will be better or has that already been predetermined?

Question: Does anyone here use the Tooth Soap's version of their whitening soap? Does it work? And what do you all think of baking soda and peroxide? Is this terrible for your teeth too?

[JaneS]

Yes, Price's work clearly shows that remineralization of teeth thru nutrition is possible.

[sunshinestarr]

Originally Posted by Annikate

I have been wondering this same thing about teeth and when they form. I also wonder, if you step up your nutrition while nursing a babe does that mean that their adult teeth will be better or has that already been predetermined?

Question: Does anyone here use the Tooth Soap's version of their whitening soap? Does it work? And what do you all think of baking soda and peroxide? Is this terrible for your teeth too?

I use Tooth Soap's tooth brightener. It works great for me. They suggest only using it once a week becuase the baking soda is so abrasive - but it definitely works for me.
Their tooth soap really takes all of the gunk off of my teeth so they get dirty easier, you know what I mean? For a little bit I thought that my two front teeth were rotting but I used the tooth brightener (don't know why I waited so long) and they were sparkling.

[moneca]

I'm used to the taste of the speramint tooth soap now. Even 2yo dd tolerates it without problems. This is a miracle because anything that tastes bad or has a different texture can cause her to vomit, but she is good with the tooth soap.
Jane - The mission school story encourages me greatly . I bring it to mind often in light of Sierra's limited diet. I'll share results if I send off the milk.
Sometimes I think we get too crazy about supplementation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't all the WP foods such as (pastured, organic, free range of course) eggs, jersey milk, meat, CLO, and stock have all the vitamins and minerals in correct amounts? For instance, you don't have to be concerned with taking extra supplements in the form of pills if you're eating enough of these foods and CLO. You don't have to be concerned with taking extra mag although you're drinking 24 oz per day of 24 hour yoghurt, right? Selenium and C seem to be exceptions to this and I realize if you are vitamin or mineral defficient to start with supplements may be necessary for a while esp. as your gut heals. Anyone ever think about this? I'm not living the ideal at all as I take a horrendous amount of supplements right now in addition to eating nutrient dense foods - due to chelation.

[JaneS]

Wolbach, S. B. 1937. The pathologic changes resulting from vitamin deficiency. Journal of the American Medical Association 108:7–13.

THE TEETH IN VITAMIN A DEFICIENCY

Enamel formation is suppressed, and striking deformities of the dentin result. May Mellanby has summarized her work on teeth in an excellent review and present convincing proof that absent or defective enamel and dentin formation are consequences of vitamin A deficiency.

Boyle has described in the tooth germ of a human infant with vitamin A deficiency enamel organ changes comparable to those we have studied in rodent incisor teeth. In all probability, vitamin A outranks all other vitamins deficiencies in importance.

Boyle's article in Journal of Dental Research:
MANIFESTATIONS OF VITAMIN-A DEFICIENCY IN A HUMAN TOOTH-GERM: CASE REPORT, PAUL E. BOYLE, J Dent Res 1933 13: 39-50.
http://jdr.iadrjournals.org/cgi/reprint/13/1/39

Diet and the Teeth
Describes some of May Mellanby's work -- most important to supplement with fat soluble vitamins before permanent teeth erupt (remember the cod liver oil they used was "high vitamin").
http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/pageren...87&pageindex=1

[JaneS]

Originally Posted by moneca

Jane - The mission school story encourages me greatly . I bring it to mind often in light of Sierra's limited diet. I'll share results if I send off the milk.

Sometimes I think we get too crazy about supplementation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't all the WP foods such as (pastured, organic, free range of course) eggs, jersey milk, meat, CLO, and stock have all the vitamins and minerals in correct amounts? For instance, you don't have to be concerned with taking extra supplements in the form of pills if you're eating enough of these foods and CLO. You don't have to be concerned with taking extra mag although you're drinking 24 oz per day of 24 hour yoghurt, right? Selenium and C seem to be exceptions to this and I realize if you are vitamin or mineral defficient to start with supplements may be necessary for a while esp. as your gut heals. Anyone ever think about this? I'm not living the ideal at all as I take a horrendous amount of supplements right now in addition to eating nutrient dense foods - due to chelation.

Yes, I definately agree with you and I've thought a lot about this. And this has been my general focus for the past year or so, trying to heal with food rather than supplements. Choosing natural supplements like acerola or amla for vit. C.

I think eating the best food you can find should be first because really they contain so many other co-factors and protections against overdosing. Plus food is more easily utilized by the body than chemical mirrors of the real stuff.

However, for people like us, there are other things in the mix. I feel I need the mag. given some of my symptoms. And I know when I take too much (loose stool). I just sleep so well with it, so that's enough incentive for me!

And I think a common theme about this thread is incentive. Incentive for people to know why it's an issue and incentive to keep an ongoing commitment to a superior diet. Because it's not easy to start. For you and I after several years now, the why and how is rote to us. Even just choking down (and paying for) high vitamin cod liver oil is difficult sometimes!

And liver, you forgot that food.
I'm still trying to work up my fortitude to make my first pate.