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Are We Human or Are We Dogs?  

post #1 of 54
Thread Starter 
Mother...

Every woman who has her child circumcised should be more than willing to have herself circumcised as well. Many, many women are circumcised the world over-- yes, even in these modern times. Removing the labia and clitoral hood is no different than removing the foreskin. It would, after all, be "cleaner" and less prone to infection, just like a male circumcision. It would remove far less tissue.

I realize that female circumcision is regarded with shock and revulsion in the USA, but I don't really understand why we make any such distinction. The structures, while different in appearance, are anatomically analogous. So why is a labia sacred while our foreskin is regarded as disgusting and disposable? Can you even begin to answer that?

Any excuse to modify another human being's sexual organs is cruel and ignorant. Any evidence to the contrary falls apart upon even a moment of thoughtful scrutiny. 90% of the world population is uncircumcised-- and get this, they're actually HEALTHIER than we are, with much reduced rates of STD, HIV and cancer.

Maybe it's because we men are victimized as children. We cannot object because we have no voice, and when we grow old enough to understand, we only know a vague sense of discontent, with no idea from whence it originates. It's so easy to assault a victim when it is done "for our own good"... especially when we are weak and voiceless and unable to say, "Please, stop, I don't want this, you're hurting me."

Do you think you could take me now and tie me down and cut off a huge chunk of my penis, now that I can scream, "Stop, Mother! Please! I'm begging you! Why are you doing this? I don't want this to be done to me!" Could you hold the knife in your fingers? Could you stand to feel my blood on your hands? When I learned what had been done to me and why I had always felt so dissatisfied, I screamed that very thing, over and over in my head. I could not scream it aloud, because we men are trained to never complain, but I screamed it in my head, and yes, I did cry, alone and in private... and you were not there to comfort me... you will never know that pain because I cannot bring myself to tell you how I feel. I will never admit it out loud. The horror gets caught, like a lump, inside my chest. I'm afraid it would hurt you... and you know I could never hurt you.

Your 1 in a 1000 UTI rate comes at the cost of a 10 in 100 complication rate, which includes such horrible things as excessive bleeding, agonizing pain, degloving, necrosis, nerve damage, excessive scarring, skin bridges, loss of sensitivity... and well, the list goes on. I hate to inform you that I myself have suffered many of these things and more... in silence... in private... as you should know.

Finally, as a man who restored his foreskin, I know what sex is like both cut and intact. Let me assure you with complete and total honesty, that circumcision robs of man of an unbelievable amount of sexual pleasure. By circumcising your children, you have destroyed the complete and whole men they might have grown up to be. You are greedily enjoying something they will never know: your entire sexual capacity and wholeness. You will never know how long and hard I worked to regain what was so casually taken away. The hours, the months, the years of frustration, impatience, the incremental victories and depressing setbacks, and all the while knowing that it will never be perfect, it will never be whole, it will never be natural... and that it was all completely avoidable, if only you had given it a moment of thought.

Do you even think of us as human beings... or do you think of us as dogs, to have our ears clipped and our tails bobbed at your discretion? I say we are human-- babies, boys, men-- and we deserve all the same rights that you enjoy. We share the same feelings of love and hate, the same humor and sadness, the same soul and intellect. The only thing we currently do not possess, which you do, is the constitutional right to an intact body. The choice to circumcise should and must become solely the right of the OWNER of the penis and NO ONE ELSE! You did not have the right to take away the source of my pleasure, intimacy and satisfaction. You did not have the right to cut my flesh and make it as you saw fit. Your choice affected my body, my spirit, my self-esteem, my confidence and my sexual fulfillment. I am a human being, not an animal. I was your child, not your plaything. I'm sorry but you hurt me more than any other person possibly could.
post #2 of 54
Wow...you made me cry. I want to write more but I have to go hug my baby boys who are, Thank God, whole.

Casey
post #3 of 54
post #4 of 54


Jen
post #5 of 54
Thank you for your letter, Joe; it's exactly how I feel.
post #6 of 54
Quote:
By circumcising your children, you have destroyed the complete and whole men they might have grown up to be


Excellent letter, it's so heartbreaking.
post #7 of 54
What a wonderful, eloquent letter.
post #8 of 54
I think more men should post like that on birth boards, I think more mothers might "get it" then. That was a very powerful letter, and it also addresses why they never hear of anyone who is less than happy with their circ. Men SO need to speak out.
post #9 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daisyuk
I think more men should post like that on birth boards, I think more mothers might "get it" then. That was a very powerful letter, and it also addresses why they never hear of anyone who is less than happy with their circ. Men SO need to speak out.
:
Beautiful letter, Joe! It makes me sooo happy that I left my sons intact, because it means that they will never write me a letter like that!
post #10 of 54
I agree as well.

Very well written.

post #11 of 54
Please go and post that on some mainstream boards. It is wonderful.
post #12 of 54
My only criticism of this letter is the analogy to the female hood and labia. I think the foreskin is more like the emergent part of the clitoris. The descriptions of the intensity and types of sensations are more like my clitoris than my hood and labia.
post #13 of 54
DaddyJoe,
May I have permission to reuse this post? I think you've said things from your point of view that I could never express as eloquently, and I would like to have this in my collection of information.

Thanks.
post #14 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by movingon
DaddyJoe,
May I have permission to reuse this post? I think you've said things from your point of view that I could never express as eloquently, and I would like to have this in my collection of information.

Thanks.
Me too
post #15 of 54
I am in tears reading that, DaddyJoe. Thank you so much for sharing it. I give thanks everyday that I found the information before my son was born, and he will grow up whole, as nature intended.

I agree with others who encourage you to post that on a mainstream board. Let those women know the resentment their sons will feel when they are older and know what their mothers did to them!!
post #16 of 54
Quote:
Do you even think of us as human beings... or do you think of us as dogs, to have our ears clipped and our tails bobbed at your discretion? I say we are human-- babies, boys, men-- and we deserve all the same rights that you enjoy.
My gosh, I wish I could have used that line of reasoning when my parents were trying to convince me to circumcise!
post #17 of 54
I would also like your permission to share this letter with others. Very powerful. Thank you!
post #18 of 54
Wow...very powerful... So glad my sons will never feel this way.
post #19 of 54
I understand that your idea was to convey the horror of male circumcision so that a woman could understand it in terms of her own body. However, female circumcision often involves a much more damaging procedure than male circ. (I am NOT saying male circ. is ok at ALL). I also don't think your comparison of the male foreskin with the female hood and labia ring true. Female circ. or Female Genital Mutilation can involve cutting off the clitoris completely, sewing shut the vaginal opening! And otherwise impairing girls and woman from feeling any sexual sensation and causing serious health problems.
Please, please, please stop comparing the two! It makes me sick when I hear the two compared, and to me it magnifies the lack of understanding most men have about female anatomy and its functions.
post #20 of 54
Thread Starter 
Plantmama, what you're talking about is called "infibulation" and is far worse than our current male circumcision practices in the USA. However, just like male circumcision, there are different types of female circs. Some involve merely pricking the clitoris as a means to ritualistically "cleanse" the female. Some involve removing the labia, clitoral hood or even the excision of the entire clitoris itself. Infibulation is usually not the type of circumcision inflicted on woman. There are also different types of circumcision performed on men. We don't really have names for them, because we generally don't really have a basic knowledge of penile anatomy. Sometimes the frenelum is excised, sometimes merely damaged, sometimes more outer shaft skin is removed, and sometimes more inner mucosa. Guy restorers general categorize their circumcisions under the terms "tight" and "loose" but there's alot more to it than that. What royally pisses me off is when discussions of male circumcision get sidetracked by women who still want to insist that FGM is somehow MORE horrible than male circumcision. Let me ask you something, mama... were you circumcised or infibulated? If so, perhaps we can comfort and work with one another to end both male and female genital mutilation. I personally have no desire to argue which one of us is the bigger victim. We are on the same side, right? I care about all human beings, whether they possess a vagina or a penis.

And I invite anyone who would like to use my letter to help end all forms of circumcision to please do so.
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