Hmph! Guess we're not using diapers anymore. - Advice needed!! - Page 2

[sweetest]

Dd went through something similar just before she started to use the potty consistently. My uneducated guess is that she was upset about getting her diaper dirty because she wanted to go in to the potty, she was just still unsure about it. We had the same denials "I'm not poopy" = she would even blame the dog!

We talked about diaper rash, although it has been quite a while since she has had any sort of rash, she remembered it. We would say "if you sit in pee pee and pooh pooh you will get a rash" in the same mattter of fact way that we say "if you dont wear your coat you will get cold outside" - just a very fact of the matter sort of statement. This lessened the fight to change. Also, we did the standing diaper changes and even plopped dd in the shower to wash off (toddler poop is m-e-s-s-y!)

Plus, we had to stop using her "baby diapers" - I think I loved them more than she did (beautiful daisy doodles). Dd goes to daycare and she saw that the other preschoolers were wearing pull ups. I tried to get her to wear cloth ones with no luck. Shes quick

We still let dd choose what she will wear. Sometimes its underwear, sometimes a diaper. She even wore underwear to school twice last week and stayed dry, then this week she decided she wanted diapers again. The important thing to me is that she decides what she is ready for.

It will end but I know in the meantime you feel

[lisac77]

We do standing diaper changes here pretty much exclusively. For poops, we do a quick 30 second in-and-out deal in the shower (he loves the shower - it's a great incentive for getting his diaper changed). He gets clean and is happy, but our floors stay clean.

[ShadowMom]

I just wanted to thank everyone for the ton of wonderful suggestions, advice and guidance I got from this thread!

I read a lot of this yesterday and didn't have time to reply (I do a lot of nak'ing).

He showed interest in potty learning several months ago, but then suddenly started adamantly refusing to use the potty at all... right around his whole contrarian phase started (please let that phase end). I guess this is just all about him wanting to have control over his life and asserting his will.

We were pretty much diaper free yesterday and today... after several peeing incidents yesterday (including the clean dishes in the dishwasher getting peed on) I explained to him this morning that if we were going to not use diapers, I really needed him to help me out and at least try to use his potty (gave him several options... peeing int he tub, peeing in the potty, peeing in a bowl standing up, in the regular toilet standing up, etc. because he doesn't seem to like his potty).

Anyway... so he adamantly refused. I guess this is where my weakness as a parent comes in. We had new carpet laid a few weeks ago and it really frustrates me to have someone peeing on it (not to mention the darn dog has been yakking on it).

So, I told him I needed him to wear diapers again for now.

I am really feeling my limitations as a parent right now. Between the two long years of constant nightwakings and nightnursings, us just getting over a phase like this with the shower/bath (thank goodness he will take showers and baths again!), power struggles over having to get dressed before leaving the house, and now the whole diaper thing, I have been getting way more frustrated about things...

I am not sure I did the right thing. But instead of sending all of these mixed messages (it's ok to not wear a diaper... but don't pee on the floor, dammit) I felt like DS really needed me to send a clear message and tell him what exactly the boundaries were. I don't feel like I set the boundaries I should have... but I didn't want to end up in a situation where I got frustrated and was always yelling at him for peeing all over the place... that can't be good.

So I guess that's where I'm at... I'm hoping in a week or two, maybe I will be feeling a little less stressed and we can try taking off the diapers again... I really feel that is the best way for him to be more aware of and responsible for his body... but I don't want it to be a power struggle.

dharmamama, thanks so much for your suggestions... in order to get him dressed yesterday (we went to the zoo) and to get changed a couple of times today, I laid him on our bed instead of the changing table, and turned his video on and gave him the remote... he seemed perfectly happy to get changed/dressed! I don't know how long THAT will last, but it was a great suggestion... and maybe not using the changing table will help since it maybe has some bad vibes due to our recent struggles.

So there you have it... I am too wishy washy to set rules, and too tense to function without them. I am feeling kind of down about myself today...

[sweetest]

Remember the most important thing is to remember where *your* limits are. No one does everything "right". Its no use to your son if you are doing what you are "supposed" to be doing and stressed out and tense all the time.

Take care of yourself mama!

[loraxc]

ITA with sweetest.

I am not sure I did the right thing. But instead of sending all of these mixed messages (it's ok to not wear a diaper... but don't pee on the floor, dammit) I felt like DS really needed me to send a clear message and tell him what exactly the boundaries were. I don't feel like I set the boundaries I should have... but I didn't want to end up in a situation where I got frustrated and was always yelling at him for peeing all over the place... that can't be good.

I totally hear this, and it is why we have kept DD in diapers even though she hates changes too. I know that the alternatives (diaper-free or trying to PT) would stress one of us even more.

[Magella]

I'm tiptoeing in to gently point something out. Please understand that this is totally meant in the kindest, most gentle way and in the spirit of making eventual potty learning a little more bearable. I truly believe (and not everyone agrees) after having three children go through potty learning that accidents (peeing on the floor and in the pants and even pooping in the pants or on the floor) are all part of learning to void in the potty, especially after a child has learned to void in the diapers which are for all intents and purposes pants. There's a learning curve, a period of "getting the hang of it," during which there will be accidents. Sure, I don't like cleaning up pee or poop from underwear and pants or the floor or a chair or from the floor. But I would be so much more frustrated, and so would my kids, if I expected them to get the hang of it right away and not have accidents. Potty learning takes time, it takes having accidents, it takes noticing the bodily sensations of peeing and/or pooping in your pants or while naked, it takes going over to the potty during or after accidents and someone verbally noticing "oh, you're peeing/pooping." It's not that they're deciding not to get on the potty when they feel it coming (well, at least not in my own very limited experience), it's that they need practice in both feeling it coming and stopping whatever interesting activity they're engaged in to get to the potty (tough for a toddler), and stopping that activity in time to avoid an accident. And in my experience applying any pressure beyond a casual "do you need to go pee?" reminder results in refusal and disinterest in the potty. And this is after our traditional 2-3 weeks of letting a very interested and clearly physically capable child run naked to get the hang of using the potty. I just feel badly for families who are so frustrated over accidents when in my experience (which is limited to my own 3 kids) accidents are a natural and unavoidable part of the process.

And if accidents are too stressful and you decide to keep your child in diapers, I think it's great that you know your own limits and it's a perfectly fine choice. I just think that eventually when you do decide to help your son give potty learning a try, it might be helpful to remember that no matter when you give it a try accidents are going to happen. Rubber pants over underwear are great when you go out-keeps the pants and the car dry.

That, of course, does not in any way address the issue of getting poopy diapers or underwear of a child who does not wish to be changed. But it sounds like you've found a way to get through it for now.

[peypeymama]

My DD is the same age as your DS. Right now she is going through a MAJOR "no no" phase. Everything, is "no no". We just drove up to our house and I hear, "no no home!" She doesn't want a nap, milk, clothes, her hair brushed, her shoes, dinner, lunch, bed-time, diaper changes. Everything and anything, even stuff she normally loves is now "no no".

Maybe, your ds is just having a case of the "no no's"?

[dharmamama]

Sledg, I think you bring up and interesting point, and I agree with you partially. Both of my kids potty trained with several weeks of running around what we call here "naked butt" and having between 10 and 20 whizzing and pooping accidents.

BUT! This was after the kids had already shown interest in the potty and had gone through a period of indicating to me (while still wearing diapers) that they wanted to go and sit on the potty.

I think that makes a difference for a lot of kids. I'm not sure that just taking diapers off a kid who has not really shown any interest in going to the potty and just expecting them to learn, after however many accidents, to go in the potty, is the right way to go.

Namaste!

[sapphire_chan]

Some people learn how to change diapers while their toddler is standing up. If he doesn't have to stop what he's doing to get his diaper changed, that might help matters.

[rumi]

i think expressing frustration with / dislike towards diapers deserves a response in which we offer an alternative, or at least a chance to go without and try out the available options.

a child may or may not exactly know beforehand that the next step is using a potty / seat insert / pull ups, whatever. so there will be a transition period where a child is using neither diapers nor a potty, and it will take some time to become consistent. if you can live with that, it can pose a mutually agreeable solution ,and afaik is part of the standard potty learning process and not only for EC'ers - though these arent watertight distinctions and I hope everyone is communicating and listening whether using diapers or not.

[miziki]

Well, I certainly wasn't advocating letting him sit in poop... especially if he's in disposables, sitting in a wet diaper for four hours or so wouldn't be a major catastrophe... For what it's worth, in this situation I would just tell my kids, "Wet and poopy diapers have to be changed, even if you don't want to," and go ahead and change it. I certainly don't think kids should be left to sit in yucky diapers... Apparently I suck at this GD thing, because my suggestions are usually criticised as too controlling, yet when I try to come up with creative alternatives, those are crummy too!

dharmamama, I totally understand that you were NOT advocating letting him sit in poop! And I definitely believe that your suggestion came from a very kind, loving, good place. Plus, your suggestion IS creative and clever from the angle that it provides the toddler with a clear, predictable routine/plan to avoid conflict - which, IMO, is very GD!

Please accept my apology - I did not intend to criticise you (or anyone else), and my apologies if it came across that way. It was not my intention!

My only concern about your suggestion was that an UNINTENDED/accidental result of having "only a certain number of scheduled changes a day" could result in poopy diapers not getting changed immediately... getting pushed off until later... and later. Same with pee. And while that's not the end of the world for that to happen on RARE occasions, this type of thing happening even once daily builds up over time, and our kids AS WELL AS us, the parents, become desensitised to the feeling of dirty diapers and out of touch with the process/frequency/signals of elimination. All of that adds up to making potty training even harder in the long run, whenever, as a family, we decide to commit to the potty learning process.

This is why diapers are such a double-edged sword: super convenient, but potentially sooo convenient & habit-forming for both parent and child that it's actually really mentally difficult for parents and quite physically difficult for kids to break out of the cycle of using them. P.S. - I *know* the convenience of diapers - we used them, too! So this is NOT an accusation or criticism of parents who diaper - just problems that I see with diapering in general, as we do it in our culture currently. Does that make sense?

[Magella]

Originally Posted by dharmamama

Sledg, I think you bring up and interesting point, and I agree with you partially. Both of my kids potty trained with several weeks of running around what we call here "naked butt" and having between 10 and 20 whizzing and pooping accidents.

BUT! This was after the kids had already shown interest in the potty and had gone through a period of indicating to me (while still wearing diapers) that they wanted to go and sit on the potty.

I think that makes a difference for a lot of kids. I'm not sure that just taking diapers off a kid who has not really shown any interest in going to the potty and just expecting them to learn, after however many accidents, to go in the potty, is the right way to go.

ITA!!!
I wasn't clear. I apologize. Certainly the most important part is that a child shows interest. I waited for all of my kids to show definite interest in the potty before even thinking about helping them learn to use it. I guess I take that so for granted that I didn't even think to say it. I also didn't make clear that I understood the op's child is not currently interested, and was more thinking of his initial interest and his future interest. I think I did say I was mentioning it to keep in mind for when he's ready and she's ready to try again.

The other piece is, though, that a child can lose interest if they feel pressured to use the potty. I know when I have gotten frustrated about accidents for whatever reason and have started pressuring them to go on the potty or showing irritation at the accident, they resist. That's my cue to back off a bit and get back to gentle encouragement, and when faced with accidents just say "oh, you peed. That happens. Next time you'll make it to the potty. Let's clean up." YK?

[JenniferC]

I can share our experiences. DD is potty trained now, but around 18 months I noticed she would wet herself when I was going to the bathroom (we have an open door policy), so I started setting her on a little potty when I was going, and she often would. She still wore diapers for quite a while (she'd been mostly dry at night for quite some time and I pottied her in the morning too and last thing at night), but just eventually transitioned out of them. She does have misses when she's sick, and has had a couple of relapses but is doing well.

As far as if you want to keep your DS in diapers, does he have a favourite doll or stuffed animal? Whenever DD is resistant to going in her carseat we buckle her special 'car seat' puppy in with her, that's his only job really, he lives in the car. At times when she would resist the potty we'd say one of her dollies had to go, and she'd take the dolly and set her between her legs (we did this a few times when we were learning the potty, with both of us on at once), wipe the dolly off etc. Maybe this would work with diaper changes? "Bear needs a diaper change, let's go!"

[blessed]

Lots of good points here.

On a side note, I wonder about the concern over yielding to your toddler when faced with tantruming.

With our kiddo, I learned early on that if I was laying down the law about something, it was imperative for me to follow through on it. Consequently, she virtually never bothers trying to tantrum with me. She recognizes that some rules are just inflexible - car seats, holding hands at street crossings, so forth. Diaper changes are a reality of life, and so pretty much fit the category of 'tough cookie, kid. It's gotta be done'.

Most kids come to hate diaper changes. It interrupts their play, it's tedious, they feel cold and exposed. But Baby learned early on that when mom decides it's the right time, then nothing she can do is going to change that. I do play and comfort her, making it as quick and pleasant as possible. And I'm understanding and realistic about her ability to be completely cooperative at her age. If she squirms and fusses, well, she's doing the best she can. Modifications like doing the change in a standing position are a nice compromise if that seems to help.

But when she pulls away, cries or is physically resistent, she's told in firm tones "Oh no! That's not how we act. Come here please. You heard me, young lady", and so forth, all the while gently and firmly proceeding with the task at hand. She knows the diaper is getting done, period, so screaming, kicking and other drastic measures are not getting her anywhere.

I don't think it matters so much what the particular rules are. But it's so common these days to see oppositional behavior in older children, who are now labeled ADHD, and so forth. I really believe that in most cases the kids just learned early on that they can control the situation with extremes of behavior. If they fight hard enough, they get their way.

That doesn't mean that baby never gets her way. She very frequently does, but it's in the context of cooperative behavior and with my permission.

If you find it hard to get cooperation out of your two year old, just imagine what it'll be like when he's six, or ten, or seventeen.

Thoughts?

[MissRubyandKen]

Thoughts?

OK but only because you asked . This seems OT to me.

I don't think it matters so much what the particular rules are. But it's so common these days to see oppositional behavior in older children, who are now labeled ADHD, and so forth. I really believe that in most cases the kids just learned early on that they can control the situation with extremes of behavior. If they fight hard enough, they get their way.

That doesn't mean that baby never gets her way. She very frequently does, but it's in the context of cooperative behavior and with my permission.

If you find it hard to get cooperation out of your two year old, just imagine what it'll be like when he's six, or ten, or seventeen.

oppsition-The action of opposing something that you disapprove or disagree with

My thoughts and opinions- To oppose something is normal and HEALTHY, much more so than always doing as you are told. All people are different, people learn different, have different personalities, temperaments, etc. Some people learn by watching, some listening, some doing. Some people are introverts, some extroverts, etc. etc. etc. SOME people like to LABEL people who are different than the majority. Just because a child does not fit into the neat little box of a standardized learning environment does not mean they need MEDICATED.

AND the behavior I see in a two year old has little to do with what I can expect from a six or seventeen year old. Tantrums are a behavior the average toddler displays. I find it hard to believe how the parent reacts to this one specific behavior would cause a child to have ADHD, which it sounds like you are implying. AND the OP was not talking about her dc tantruming over a chocolate bar or something anyhow, she was saying her dc doesn't like diaper changes and teeth brushing. MUCH DIFFERENT.

[WuWei]

Thoughts?

I think you will spice the place up. There are many of us who disagree with your authoritarian view of controlling children. Welcome to MDC.

Pat

[blessed]

Originally Posted by scubamama

I think you will spice the place up. There are many of us who disagree with your authoritarian view of controlling children. Welcome to MDC.

Pat

Thank you. It looks as though your prediction will hold true .

It's funny. I never, ever thought my parenting would classify as 'authoritarian'. We don't spank (of course), don't yell, don't 'time out'.

What seems to work great with my girl is to explain why I'm asking for something to be a certain way. Even when she was certainly too young to understand my words, she still seemed to understand the reassuring nature of my communication. When she got hold of something sharp and tried to put in in her mouth, I could say 'oh no! That's not for babies. That will cut you if you eat it!' She would just agreeably hand over the object.

Dad was slower to figure that out, and would at first approach it more from the 'cuz I say so' stance. He'd try to pry it out of her hands, saying 'give it here!' She'd wail and resist. Then I'd say, 'oh honey, dad doesn't want you to cut yourself. That's why he's taking it away'. She'd instantly calm down and hand the item over. Once dad saw how effective that was he incorporated that approach, with equal success.

I think it astonishes me to hear a mom talk about letting her child **** and **** on the floor because she doesn't want to cope with his childish unhappiness over pausing to have his diaper changed. It seems unfair to the child, not to mention pretty nonsensical in terms of dealing with everyday life.

And I do absolutely believe in a relationship with later behaviors. If little johnnie feels disgruntled and unhappy about other situations: sitting in his desk, waiting his turn, or giving another child his toy back - well, he knows the way out of that situation. Just tantrum until you get your way. Now everybody's miserable, including little johnnie. Now teacher is asking for little johnnie to be worked up for ADHD.

Teaching patience and compromise is part of parenting.

[MissRubyandKen]

Teaching patience and compromise is part of parenting.

Well I agree with this . I show patience for my children and am willing to compromise with them , they learn what they see and are shown. I am at a loss what this has to do with a toddler tantruming though? Is doing something to a child they have expressed they don't want done compromise?

I think it astonishes me to hear a mom talk about letting her child piss and shit on the floor because she doesn't want to cope with his childish unhappiness over pausing to have his diaper changed. It seems unfair to the child, not to mention pretty nonsensical in terms of dealing with everyday life.

There is quite a bit of room for alternatives between 'letting' a toddler use the floor and forcing a diaper on them, don't you agree? Children do sometimes go on the floor while they are learning and even after. Would you propose not helping them learn because the may go on the floor? Just curious.

Also curious-what exactly is your definition of a 'tantrum' anyway?

[dharmamama]

Blessed, welcome to MDC.

I think I come at parenting much the way you do. I think that parents can be "in charge" of their children and still be disciplining gently.

I would like to add that, in the past, we have had guidance from the mods on using swear words in our posts. I'm not sure whether there is a sticky on it, but the general idea was that not everyone is comfortable with them, so they are best left out.

Namaste!

[WuWei]

Teaching patience and compromise is part of parenting.

Perhaps, modelling patience and compromise is more effective than forcing one's will to 'teach patience and compromise'. I guess you might be surprised that others consider a "tantrum" a valid expression of valid emotions which are just as important as our own adult emotions and expressions of needs. And many here offer alternative methods of expressing the needs at the same time as meeting the underlying need, rather than disregarding the 'tantrum' while meeting our own need.

I am sure we will all learn a lot together.

Pat