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Hmph! Guess we're not using diapers anymore. - Advice needed!! - Page 3

post #41 of 123
Thread Starter 
Quote:
I think it astonishes me to hear a mom talk about letting her child **** and **** on the floor because she doesn't want to cope with his childish unhappiness over pausing to have his diaper changed. It seems unfair to the child, not to mention pretty nonsensical in terms of dealing with everyday life.
Wow... could you be any more offensive? Or more open in your contempt for me, the original poster?

Rather than being open for thoughts, your first post now sounds like a condescending "Oh, this stupid parent... she's coddling her child and doesn't know any better".

For your future info, "letting" children **** and **** on the floor (as you so eloquently put it) is the potty training method the rest of the world uses, rather than diapers. And, it is well known to be the best method of acquainting a diapered child with their body functions.

As for your contempt which was obviously directed at me... tantrums are a healthy way (and frequently the ONLY way) for a toddler to express their frustrations with the limitations being imposed on them. It is not simply a behavior to reinforce or not reinforce. Children aren't dogs. Dogs aren't dogs either.

You have been fed a bunch of behaviorist claptrap by our culture. Taking into account a child's desires and needs doesn't make me a pushover parent who will have a child with ADHD, as your first post strongly implies.

I'm curious... if your child developed an aversion to taking baths and had a fear of the drain, would you force them to take a bath? If you didn't, you'd just be a big pushover giving in to childish whims, and encouraging tantrums and ADHD and any number of other behavioral problems, according to your definition.
post #42 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by KristiMetz
Wow... could you be any more offensive? Or more open in your contempt for me, the original poster?
I'm sorry, Kristi. I will apologize for that. I was trying to word it in such a way as to capture how shocking that idea was to me. But I'm sorry that it came out sounding too critical, and I think that it really did .

Sure, kids accidentally go on the floor while in the midst of potty training. My daughter went on herself this morning. I had the impression that this was more a case of just giving in to your kiddo and letting him run around diaperless simply because he objected to diapers. All the while knowing that he would soil himself and the house because he really wasn't ready.

I think babies and toddlers have a pretty tough time dealing with their own negative emotions, and they really look to us to help them define what it is that they're feeling and how to deal with it. I think when kids have a knee jerk negative response to a situation, it really does them a disservice when our unwillingness to intervene serves to essentially affirm their dysfunctional reaction.

Life deals us all sorts of unpleasant situations. Our kids need the tools to govern their own feelings and reactions to them, so that they can cope with them effectively.

I can't really relate to your example about my kid being afraid of the bathtub drain, to be honest. But she does hate to have her hair washed. Rinsed, to be exact. But the first couple of times that she pitched a fit about having her hair rinsed, I didn't just stop washing her hair and let her go dirty. I talked to her and coaxed her and offered different approaches to see if one felt better than the other.

But at the end of the day, she learned that screaming and fighting with me simply doesn't grant her immunity from carrying through with unpleasant tasks. Rather, what she learned was how to manage her feelings of frustration and anger when life hands you a situation that isn't exactly to her liking.

Her angst most assuredly gets my attention and my sympathy. She knows absolutely that her distress is my distress, and that I'm doing everything I can to help ameliorate the situation for her. But she TRUSTS me to guide her through which situations are safe, which are negotiable, and which simply must be dealt with head on. When it's one of the latter, she looks to me to help her learn how to cope.

Your son needs you to help him figure out how to deal with unpleasant situations - like an unwanted diaper change.

Anyway, that's pretty much how I view it.
post #43 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by KristiMetz
... tantrums are a healthy way (and frequently the ONLY way) for a toddler to express their frustrations with the limitations being imposed on them. It is not simply a behavior to reinforce or not reinforce. Children aren't dogs. Dogs aren't dogs either.

You have been fed a bunch of behaviorist claptrap by our culture. Taking into account a child's desires and needs doesn't make me a pushover parent who will have a child with ADHD, as your first post strongly implies.


Anyways, I've found that if I offer ds a book to "read" for diaper changes, it almost always makes it better. And he has a tigger stuffed animal that "bounces on him" and talks to him before diaper changes.
post #44 of 123
Yes, please refrain from using "swear" words when posting. We understand that occasionally, these words come up....but, in this instance, in this forum, I ask that anyone who has used (or quoted) the offending words, please use the edit feature at the bottom right hand corner. If you're not able to in a timely manner, I will do so.

Thanks for understanding!
post #45 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by blessed
Lots of good points here.

On a side note, I wonder about the concern over yielding to your toddler when faced with tantruming.

With our kiddo, I learned early on that if I was laying down the law about something, it was imperative for me to follow through on it. Consequently, she virtually never bothers trying to tantrum with me. She recognizes that some rules are just inflexible - car seats, holding hands at street crossings, so forth. Diaper changes are a reality of life, and so pretty much fit the category of 'tough cookie, kid. It's gotta be done'.

Most kids come to hate diaper changes. It interrupts their play, it's tedious, they feel cold and exposed. But Baby learned early on that when mom decides it's the right time, then nothing she can do is going to change that. I do play and comfort her, making it as quick and pleasant as possible. And I'm understanding and realistic about her ability to be completely cooperative at her age. If she squirms and fusses, well, she's doing the best she can. Modifications like doing the change in a standing position are a nice compromise if that seems to help.

But when she pulls away, cries or is physically resistent, she's told in firm tones "Oh no! That's not how we act. Come here please. You heard me, young lady", and so forth, all the while gently and firmly proceeding with the task at hand. She knows the diaper is getting done, period, so screaming, kicking and other drastic measures are not getting her anywhere.

I don't think it matters so much what the particular rules are. But it's so common these days to see oppositional behavior in older children, who are now labeled ADHD, and so forth. I really believe that in most cases the kids just learned early on that they can control the situation with extremes of behavior. If they fight hard enough, they get their way.

That doesn't mean that baby never gets her way. She very frequently does, but it's in the context of cooperative behavior and with my permission.

If you find it hard to get cooperation out of your two year old, just imagine what it'll be like when he's six, or ten, or seventeen.

Thoughts?


Thank you. I am with you on this one. I do not think it is going to ruin a child for life to be told "no" on certain things. I think you can be firm and yet still kind and gentle with your children.

Honestly, I do not even understand why this is such a huge discussion, although I will say it is interesting (as are most discussions here) and informative. Unless your child is ready for potty training, then you have no other alternative to diapers, unless you do not mind poop and pee all over your house. I think I can safely say most of us would probably draw the line at that.

To the OP. It sounds like you have a handle on this thing and I just say to do what you think is best. My middle son has Autism and was not potty trained until right after he turned 5. Of course that is normal with Autism, but I was relieved when he decided to finally do it. And no, I never punished, yelled or said anything rude to him about it. I do not believe in punishing and belittling a child for potty training accidents.
post #46 of 123
I edited the posts that contained offensive words. Ordinarily, I wouldn't edit anyone else's posts, but in this instance, in an effort to keep the posts on the boards, rather than removing them entirely, I edited. Again, please refrain from using vulgarities, even if it is to make a point or in quoting. Let's remember some of us have older children reading over our shoulders

Please PM me if you have any further questions. Thanks!
post #47 of 123
(all bolding mine)

Quote:
Originally Posted by blessed
Our kids need the tools to govern their own feelings and reactions to them, so that they can cope with them effectively.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blessed
Her angst most assuredly gets my attention and my sympathy. She knows absolutely that her distress is my distress, and that I'm doing everything I can to help ameliorate the situation for her. But she TRUSTS me to guide her through which situations are safe, which are negotiable, and which simply must be dealt with head on. When it's one of the latter, she looks to me to help her learn how to cope.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blessed
Diaper changes are a reality of life, and so pretty much fit the category of 'tough cookie, kid. It's gotta be done'.


Uhhh, what?



Let's just say, I'm glad you're not the one "teaching" my little one anything. Wow!

__________________________________________________ _________

Kay, has anything happened since the OP? Any changes (pun intended ) or progress?
post #48 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by aira
Let's just say, I'm glad you're not the one "teaching" my little one anything. Wow!
I think that parents can teach kids that some things in life are non-negotiable and model for kids how to accept and deal with the situation and their feelings about it.

I subscribe to the "tough cookie, kid, it has to be done" school of thought for some things in life, but that doesn't mean that I don't work to help my kids to understand their feelings and help them deal with those feelings. I think it's important for parents to teach kids that 1) they won't always get their way 2) sometimes you just have to suck it up 3) you can manage feelings without a great big noisy fuss.

That doesn't mean I am cold and unfeeling towards my kids and their feelings. It just means that I don't think that contorting myself into strange shapes and tolerating emotional outbursts is always the best way to go. Sometimes I am extremely flexible. But other times, I am not. And I expect that my kids learn to express their feelings in ways that don't involve tantrums.

Namaste!
post #49 of 123
Well, I'm glad you're not "teaching" my DC either.

That stuff I quoted was truely dizzying.


And if I weren't so busy contorting myself around DS, then just how would I get any exercize?
post #50 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by aira
Well, I'm glad you're not "teaching" my DC either.
Well, honestly, I am glad you're not teaching my dc. But where does that conversation get us? You can disagree with people without being rude to them personally.

Namaste!
post #51 of 123
oh, to the op- I realized that when I go to change ds, I ask him to help lift his bottom up and he thinks that's fun. I say "bottom's up" (because that's funny to me lol) and he goes on with raising his butt up, then down (I say bottom's down). He does it over and over, and I just fasten the diaper any ways I can. lol
That and giving him a book to look at. And waiting until he's at a stopping point in whatever activity is important to him at the moment.
post #52 of 123
OK. I just don't find it so terrible that you wouldn't want me teaching your kids, so I'm at a disadvantage in avoiding that "rudeness".

I just don't find it rude when directed at me...

I think my point in post #47 was valid, and doesn't deserve to be sidetracked.
post #53 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by aira
I think my point in post #47 was valid, and doesn't deserve to be sidetracked.
I think your point would have been much better made had you actually made a point and not just tried to jab the poster. You might as well have added "neener neener neener plbbbbbbbbt!" to your post.

Namaste!
post #54 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by dharmamama
I subscribe to the "tough cookie, kid, it has to be done" school of thought for some things in life, but that doesn't mean that I don't work to help my kids to understand their feelings and help them deal with those feelings. I think it's important for parents to teach kids that 1) they won't always get their way 2) sometimes you just have to suck it up 3) you can manage feelings without a great big noisy fuss.

That doesn't mean I am cold and unfeeling towards my kids and their feelings. It just means that I don't think that contorting myself into strange shapes and tolerating emotional outbursts is always the best way to go. Sometimes I am extremely flexible. But other times, I am not. And I expect that my kids learn to express their feelings in ways that don't involve tantrums.

Namaste!
I thiknk I'm falling somewhere in the middle, here. I don't feel comfortable with the "tough cookies, kid" thing...however, having said that, I am not against coercing my child in some situations, or 'making' him do things sometimes....but, I do not ever try to control his expression of feelings, as I think it's healthy for him to get them out. I will empathize with him and say, "Boy, you're mad because X, I understand but we need to Y for Z reason." But I never tell him his outbursts are unacceptable...as he gets older, I will teach him more constructive ways to express his anger, but I never want him to stifle it.

To me, "tough cookies" means I don't care what he's feeling, and that is definitely not the case. I do care what he's feeling, I do validate his feelings, and even if he isn't getting his "way", I let him know I understand where he's coming from (but I don't get overly melodramatic about it). I think that, in combination with me just kind of getting things done without lots of drama and maintaining a calm, gentle demeanor, lets him know that he won't always 'get his way' without being quite so harsh as 'tough cookies', that it's OK for him to not like what's going on, but that it will still be getting done, and that he has the ability and resiliance to get over minor disappointments (though with toddler tantrums, they all seem like life-altering events, don't they? ).

I do have to respectfully say that this

Quote:
Originally Posted by blessed
"Oh no! That's not how we act. Come here please. You heard me, young lady"
makes me feel icky...it gives me a "don't be a bad girl", or "nice girls don't X" vibe, which I don't like....falls too far to authoritarian (vs. authoritative) for me.

Back OT, with DS, he's disliked getting his diaper changed laying down since he was about 12 months, maybe 14, so we've been changing pee diapers standing (with pull up sposies) since then. I do insist on changing poop diapers lying down, because we've had some incidents where poop ends up in bizarre places and we don't always see it right away - long story, won't get into it... So anyway, he is free to stand and do whatever while I do the pees, but when he poops, that's a lay down for the wiping. The pants come off and then the new diaper goes on and redressed standing, but the actual cleaning of the dirty diaper happens lying down...but on the floor, I haven't used a changing table with him since he was about 12 months. AND, when he does protest, I sympathize with him, "I know, you hate laying down and having me clean up poops", tell him, "I'm almost done, then you can stand up", and then thank him when we're done. This doesn't mean that he always happily cooperates, but to me it's not really an option - poopy diapers get changed and cleaned ASAP. But, I don't feel like I'm giving the "tough noogies" vibe, because I'm certainly recognizing the fact he doesn't like it, and letting him know it will be over as quickly as possible.

OK, so once again, I rambled. How shocking.
Just my opinion, FWIW.
post #55 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by donosmommy04
but I never want him to stifle it.
I don't want my kids to stifle their feelings, either. Nor do I want them screaming at me in a rage. I think that kids can taught that "It's ok to tell me how you're feeling like this but not like that."

Namaste!
post #56 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by dharmamama
I don't want my kids to stifle their feelings, either. Nor do I want them screaming at me in a rage. I think that kids can taught that "It's ok to tell me how you're feeling like this but not like that."

Namaste!
True, true - that's what I meant when I mentioned teaching him appropriate ways to express his anger...I think we're actually relatively close on this one, really! Didn't mean my post as an attack. Sorry if it came out that way.
post #57 of 123
Ladies, ladies, ladies, claws in. I think the point was how contradicting the messages in the quotes were: I care what you think/feel and I am doing what I can to ameliorate it but I am going to do what I want regardless and I call that 'helping you to cope with your emotions'.

Seems dismissive of the child's emotions when they are protesting what is being done *to their body* against their will. How is continuing to act, not disregard? How is it "non-negotiable" when one person is choosing to *do it* to another.......oh! , "it is for their own good". Right That sounded sarcastic. Hmmm...... I guess the mixed message is basically lying to the child, imo. The actions are not consistent with the "reassurance". This seems like psychological manipulation of the verbal message to dissociate from the reality of one's actions.

Actions speak louder than words. Is the child learning to disregard another's emotions to get their way? We really choose to keep looking for the common preference because then we are looking for a solution which works for both parties, because these are the skills they need in the world and in other relationships. And I don't think that precludes changing the diaper. Warm wipes, softer wipes, standing up, toys to engage, tv show, a snack, etc. Bullying ahead isn't necessary.

Pat
post #58 of 123
Per the User Agreement:

Quote:
You are expected to avoid the following when you post:

Posting in a disrespectful, defamatory, adversarial, baiting, harassing, offensive, insultingly sarcastic or otherwise improper manner, toward a member or other individual, including casting of suspicion upon a person, invasion of privacy, humiliation, demeaning criticism, namecalling, personal attack, or in any way which violates the law.
Let's get back to the diapering/discipline discussion at hand, please. Personal comments about who's not teaching whom can be taken to PM

Thanks!
post #59 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by dharmamama
I don't want my kids to stifle their feelings, either. Nor do I want them screaming at me in a rage. I think that kids can taught that "It's ok to tell me how you're feeling like this but not like that."

Namaste!
I agree with helping our son to find alternative means of expressing himself in a manner in which I wish to be addressed. However, if I am disregarding his body space integrity against his will, I don't quite expect a young child to say 'excuse me please, but I asked you to stop doing that (taking off my clothes for example) and you keep forcing me to do it anyway.' I would expect if a child had expressed dissent about me doing something to his body, and I kept doing it without listening and honoring his expression of protest, that he, like most of us would not be so "constructive" in his 'expression of anger'. I'd completely expect that if someone were physcially doing something to my body (taking off my clothes for example) and I was telling them to stop, I might want to scream at them in a rage, if they KEPT doing it! Wouldn't you?



Pat
post #60 of 123
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by aira
Kay, has anything happened since the OP? Any changes (pun intended ) or progress?
Thanks for asking. Things have actually gotten a bit better. I lay him down on my bed to change him so he can watch the one video he likes to watch while he gets changed.

I don't really like changing him on my bed... even though there's a changing pad there, it seems kind of yucky to me. But, I will happily do it if it makes everyone happy.

I am not sure how healthy it is to *distract* him as a means of making him give in and let me do something which he really seems to protest against. It is one thing to do this with a 1 year old who is just irritated at being interrupted... it is another to do this to someone who is over 2 (he's almost 26 months) and is very aware of what he does and does not want being done to his body.

I can't escape the feeling that if I had been just a little more patient, and not such a grumpy old hag, and kept him out of diapers for a few days, maybe he would have just decided to use the potty. I will have to think on this some more. I felt really bad at hollering at him for peeing on the floor (and it was the KITCHEN floor, for crying out loud) and I definitely didn't want that precedent to continue.

So, I guess to answer your question, diaper changes no longer involve lots of screaming and writhing and anger, but neither do I feel I chose the right solution.

Perhaps I need to meditate on this some more.
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