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Problem with 'The Purpose of this Forum'

post #1 of 59
Thread Starter 
Does anyone else have a problem with this:

Quote:
Vaccinations Forum is neither pro-vax nor an anti-vax in policy. It is a discussion forum that promotes "informed decisions".

It is unique amongst parenting boards on the internet. It is intended to be a safe place to discuss the pros and cons of the issue. Discussions are expected to be kept civil and respectful.

We know it can be a volatile subject. Please; be polite. Disagree by presenting information. If you're irritated and don't want to present the info yet again then simply refer them to the archives and back off. If people don't want to present their opinions and science and disagree gracefully; then they should bow out of the discussion. If they persist; then debate civily. If a member gets out of line; then it is an issue that the moderator will deal with.
I'm sorry Carla...you can lock this thread if you'd like, but I really think we need to talk about this as a community. It seems that people are using the wording of this to come in here and spread pro-vax propaganda and I'm just not o.k. with that. You can find pro-vax information all over the www. Why does Mothering.com have to be so PC by stating "Vaccinations Forum is neither pro-vax or anti-vax in policy." ?? This just opens the way for trolls to come in...And then the conversation inevitably gets heated, making it nearly impossible to comply with the second part of the Forum Guidelines about debating civily.

Should I be discussing this with you in a PM? I don't know. I'm just fed up. Am I overreacting?
post #2 of 59
I don't have a problem with the rules per se. Some vaxers do come here because they're starting to second-guess themselves, and they might not be as likely to if the forum is labelled as distinctly anti-vax. Unofficially it is anti-vax.

I hear you about the trolls, although I don't read every thread, so it hasn't struck me as such a huge problem. The other problem, I think, is that even if the wording of the forum purpose statement is changed, a jerky troll with too much time on her hands is still going to find a way to come in and start a problem if she really wants to. It's easy enough to make up a new name and users do get instant access to the vax forum.

To me, I guess the biggest problem is that there are so many people who feel they have so little power and control in their real lives that they troll on message boards on the net to feel important. Pathetic, no?
post #3 of 59
I agree, and would like to point this out:
" If you're irritated and don't want to present the info yet again then simply refer them to the archives and back off. If people don't want to present their opinions and science and disagree gracefully; then they should bow out of the discussion. If they persist; then debate civily. If a member gets out of line; then it is an issue that the moderator will deal with."

I'm not seeing a lot of information presented on the pro side. Maybe this is an issue we should re-visit. These days it's just serving to make the forum a hostile place for everyone. Some honest newbies have been attacked because we're all feeling so raw from the blatant attacks going on here.

Cynthia, could you weigh in please?

thanks,

-Angela
post #4 of 59
Well...the circ. board doesn't go both ways - not sure why this one should. Both circ. AND vaxing are proven harmful & both could be debated from the other side. *shrug* Just my thoughts...
post #5 of 59
maybe it's a liablility issue. MDC or mothering don't want to publicly admit to being anti vax?
post #6 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by mysticmomma
maybe it's a liablility issue. MDC or mothering don't want to publicly admit to being anti vax?
I don't come on this board a whole lot, mainly just looking for info (I'm against vax btw, DD was vax'ed until 12 months, then I wised up, and well, not again), but, I really think that maybe MDC is trying to be polite and open to it's MEMBERS (real ones, not trolls), who DO vax (or circ or whatever).

Just cause we feel one way, doesn't mean we have to be downright nasty and come out and say 'you're not welcome cause you did this', no matter what we think or why...

I'd feel pretty crappy if I was a member of a board, I felt comfy there, but I chose something and felt simply banished from a particular board for that choice... (although, I do tend to feel that way about the SAHM/WOHM debate going on)..

It just kinda sucks, cause around MDC I'm 'hearing' alot of, 'well if you don't do things THIS way, you suck as a parent', and that's coming from people on MDC directed toward other people on MDC, and it sucks. We're all just trying to do our best, let's not get even nastier...
post #7 of 59
When the default social and cultural position is pro-vax then any informed discussion will necessarily err on the anti-vax side.

However, since the current medical establishment and health policy bureaucracy actually encourages an uninformed pro vax position, it is possible to have an debate about informed vaccination that looks at the reasons (medical, political, economic and social) that doctors, scientists, policymakers support vaccination. What is not necessary, IMO, is to provide an additional forum to air the superficial vax propaganda passed out at the ped's office, that does not provide any real information.

But, I agree strongly with the pp that you will not get that real information from a debate. You really do have to read it yourself.
post #8 of 59
I'm not sure that vax and circ are really comparable. Circ is on much shakier ground even in the mainstream. Circ is damaging to 100% of the people it's done to, vax not necessarily so much. I'm much more horrified at people who circ than vax, and I dunno about you guys, but I'd much rather be vaxed (even fully with all the newest crap) than circ'ed.

On one hand, I'd kinda rather see this forum be anti vax, but on the other hand, I wonder if it does do more good as a neutral discussion board. I dunno.
post #9 of 59
Really?? Now, personally, I'd rather my DS not have a foreskin than all the issues that has stemming from vaxing...
post #10 of 59
I appreciate the wealth of knowledge imparted by many here, and it gave me enough useful information to be able to decline Prevnar and HiB the other day (woohoo, our first vaxes declined) at the 12 month well-baby visit.

I feel badly for the people who come here and feel like they are getting trounced by the regulars. Having read a few of those threads initially, I decided not to ask naive questions, rather to sift through the archives a bit first.

I personally find that websites opposing vaccinations tend to be a little too inflammatory for my liking, safeminds.org being one exception to date. Are there any useful non-governmental, non-AAP pro-vax websites?

It is hard to find useful literature supporting (and sometimes opposing) vaccinations, without having a solid foundation in science to read and comprehend the underlying mechanistic studies. The appalling rate of scientific illiteracy in the US hobbles a lot of people from being able to do this without fear and trepidation. Moreover, many of the actual papers are difficult to obtain, beyond the abstract (if that is even available on pubmed - thank you BigPublishers for opposing Open Access). Even our big library doesn't subscribe to many of the journals so I find myself relying heavily on interlibrary loan.

It would be nice, however, to see all the relevant literature put together in one spot, perhaps as an annotated bibliography of sorts. Is there such a resource?
post #11 of 59
i would really like to see this board named the case against vaccinations.

but that is me.

you can go ANYWHERE and find pro-vax info.
But there ar VERY few anti-vax sites which present CONCRETE INFORMATION AND FACTS against vaccines which this one does. Many of the anti vax sites only have "vax are bad, the end" stuff.

I dont mind the debating, but when it gets nasty, and it DOES it bothers me.

we are all moms, trying to do the very best that we can for our children. that is a very difficult job. and when someone attacks someone else for a decision they dont agree with, it just makes our jobs that much harder
post #12 of 59
I've always felt this is a major weakness of Mothering.

I feel its good that there is a place where both sides can be discussed, but as someone above said, the pro-vaxers don't often come with information worthy of discussion. What is presented is mostly opinion.

What really upsets me, though is when there are inconsistencies in their stories, and sometimes blatant lies, and when you call them on it, they ignore that. The major problem as I see it, is that the MO of pro-vaccine people can be a hit and run approach.

You see that hugely elsewhere BUT... I would also have to say that that can be the MO of anti-vaxxers elsewhere because the heat applied to anti-vaxxers on the pro-vaccine site makes those of us pinged for troll-hunting look like cherabims.

As far as I am concerned, Mothering can never fulfill the function that many of us would like it to because of the nature of the board. It's privately own, publicly accessible with what... nearly 50,000 members??? and it is what it is. In that aspect, there is little point in discussing its shortcomings, because that's been tried before, and no matter our ideas, it isn't going to happen.

And we have to accept that that's the way it is, so when you come to a privately owned board you have to come accepting the limitations. : In a sense, there's not much point in discussing it. Others have done so before, and while it might be a useful vent it will never have constructive spin-offs.

The only constructive issue for me to discuss on this thread is whether I'd rather be circumcised or vaccinated.

Circumcision is the least of the two issues, because even if the circumcision goes wrong, and you are deprived of the ability to have sex as a male, or if the child gets an infection, than can be treated. Death can happen but at least that's finite.

Try talking to someone with a child with permanent vaccine damage who is alive though. That's a situation where the parent constantly grieves, but cannot do it properly until, or if the child dies.

Talk to adults who have ongoing issues from vaccines.

When you really know the issues, both short and long term, and the potential for epigenetic damage to cellular DNA from vaccines, the potential flow down effects are grossly horrific.

The damage that circ can do is radically limited in comparison. And fortunately for females can only ever affect around 50% of the population.

So I guess for women its a no brainer. I wont be around much for a short while. I've nausea and other menopause issues that are majorly affecting my ability to think at the moment.
post #13 of 59
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by alegna
I'm not seeing a lot of information presented on the pro side. Maybe this is an issue we should re-visit. These days it's just serving to make the forum a hostile place for everyone. Some honest newbies have been attacked because we're all feeling so raw from the blatant attacks going on here.
Yep. This is what's wearing on me too. The pro-vax side likes to spout out opinion (I realize I'm making a generalization here, but I'm basing this on what's been recently happening here) and rarely any sources to back that up, and it fosters a hostile environment. I just wish this forum were more decidedly anti/selective/delayed vax so that people couldn't use the Forum Guidelines as an excuse to hijack every thread and spew opinion all over the place without facts to back it up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MomBirthmonStepmom
It just kinda sucks, cause around MDC I'm 'hearing' alot of, 'well if you don't do things THIS way, you suck as a parent', and that's coming from people on MDC directed toward other people on MDC, and it sucks. We're all just trying to do our best, let's not get even nastier...
Whoa mama...I was not saying that! I never said anyone sucked as a parent. My beef is with the way that this vax forum is set up. I don't think it's nasty to wish this forum were more anti-vax. We've had plenty of vaxing parents (NOT Trolls) come here with honest concerns and they were treated with respect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara
The only constructive issue for me to discuss on this thread is whether I'd rather be circumcised or vaccinated.
Um...Way to derail my thread! I think we can still discuss this even if nothing comes out of it.
post #14 of 59
Uhhhhhhh this thread is getting in a really weird area comparing circumcision to vaxing. There are quite a few statements in this thread made regarding RIC that most intactivists would take serious issue with, myself included. Maybe it would be best to drop the whole circ vs. vax thing lest this turn into a totally huge dual board war (if it's not already too late)

....I can feel the mods shaking in their shoes right now.
post #15 of 59
I am not sure that labeling the forum as clearly anti-vax would solve the problem. So many forums that have nothing to do with vaxes have problems with trolls!
To my mind it is a question of how to deal with very difficult posters, whether they are intentional trolls or not.
Actually I would enjoy very-very much to have a discussion with a pro-vaxer that is very sincere in her motivation (having the interest of her children as the highest priority) and that can present her opinions coherently. I would need such a debate to learn how to discuss with other "real" people, to clarify my own ideas and to learn new things.
post #16 of 59
Putting a mama and papa down for their decision to vax would never enter my mind, and I'm as anti-vax as they come. I want people to be comfortable with their decisions.

With that said, the problems that *I've* seen on this forum haven't come from those afore-mentioned parents. They come from antagonistic people who wish to tell us non-vaxxers that we are negligent, piggy-bagging-on-the-backs-of-our-vaccinated-neighbors, smelly pinko commie hippys.

I want anyone--no matter what their decisions are--to feel comfortable asking questions here. I do NOT want to feel like I have to defend my very informed decisions on *the* natural living discussion board.

Ultimately I'm pro informed consent. I do wish we had a policy in place for dealing with deliberately antagonistic people.
post #17 of 59
I think if this board was "the case against vaccinations" we wouldn't get as many visitors (but I'm sure the trolls would still arrive.)

There's quite a bit of leeway between "never vaccinating whatsoever" and "vaccinating on schedual without question." There's delayed vax, selective vax, people who give all the "required" vax but have questions about the "optional" ones, etc.

I happen to like "the purpose of this forum" and would like to see it remain the same.
post #18 of 59
I just wish there could be more guidelines for newbies.

Such as...you may not ask these questions unless you've searched the archives first, and the Q's with an asterisk may never be asked at all:

1. * I just don't get it. Why NOT vax???
2. *Don't you love your children enough to protect them???
3. What about polio?
4. My ped. says flu/CP/WC can KILL children.
5. I was vaxed and I'm fine. What's your problem?
6. *You were all vaxed and you're fine, what's your problem?
7. Please show me convincing studies from reliable sources only.
8. You all are just riding on herd immunity.
9. *anything related to needle-phobia as a legit. reason for nonvax
10. There is no mercury anymore and it never caused AS disorders anyway.

See, newbies come here with extremely lame arguments, and MT(may she live forever) wears herself out taking the time again to cut and paste one of her old books or write a new one. Which affects me cuz then she's too wiped out to answer my yearly Q's about pertussis and sodium ascorbate .

I just would like folks to search first, then ask. And not waste time and bandwidth with 'common-sense' one-liners about the virtues of vaxing and the ignorance of not.

OTOH I think it should remain a debate board out of respect for the 1000's (probably) who have begun their education here, and the 1000's who will follow in their footsteps.
post #19 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by curlyfry
Um...Way to derail my thread! I think we can still discuss this even if nothing comes out of it.
Sorry, I didn't mean to. I tried to discuss this two years ago, and ran a marathon for nothing. It's a no-goer, and no matter how much its discussed we are chasing out tails.

So there is no doubt on both counts, that this thread will be nixed AND that pro-vax will continue their normal MO.
post #20 of 59
Thread Starter 
You live and learn, I guess...
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