If you could design an alternative boys' organization...

[EnviroBecca]

...what would it be like?

This is a question I'm pondering after reading the "Denying boys their right to have feelings" thread. One of the things that disturbs me about Boy Scouts is the emphasis on the strong, solid ideal of masculinity that doesn't allow for crying or tenderness. I'd like my son to be able to join an all-male organization that helps boys pursue ALL their interests and learn ALL kinds of skills. I think it would be easier for boys to get into childcare, quilting, etc. in an all-male group, just as it's easier for girls to get into firebuilding, sports, and career development in an all-female group; an activity doesn't seem so much like it's "for" the other gender when they're not around to compare yourself to and they're not demonstrating how much better they can do it.

I've done some looking for alternatives to Boy Scouts but have found only co-ed organizations. I'm sure they're all valuable in many ways, but I think there's a niche that can be filled only by a group that's for boys specifically. I'm a Girl Scout leader and think that's a fabulous organization for girls, but making it co-ed would wreck it. I don't think that trying to copy Girl Scouts but make it for boys is the answer either, or not directly...I mean, the origin of Girl Scouts was copying Boy Scouts and making it for girls, but the current wonderful program is the result of 94 years of girl-directed evolution! I'm looking for something for my son, not my great-great-grandson!

So far, all I can think of is what these AlternaBoys would NOT be like: not paramilitary, not very hierarchical, not homophobic, not so focused on being brave and strong (though that should be PART of the guiding principles, as it is in Girl Scouting), not putting significant time into competitive athletics which boys already have plenty of opportunity to do, not based in any religion or political entity. And I can think of some traits of Boy Scouts that I would want the AlternaBoys to have, like service projects and camping.

But how would this organization work? What would a meeting be like? What would be their rituals? Help me brainstorm!

[srain]

How/ why do you think it needs to be different from Girl Scouts? That could be your starting point. If you think there's an effective children's organization already in existence, you don't need to start your design from square one.

I personally don't think gender-segregated activities are appropriate for young children. We've started a chapter of Roots & Shoots for our kids and community, and we've really enjoyed it. http://home.nycap.rr.com/rootsandshoots/

[Patchfire]

I love this idea! Ds is only 10 months old, and I can't tell you how much I've already agonised over this - I'm his sister's Daisy leader, I was a Girl Scout myself all the way through school, and his father was a Boy Scout. Everyone already expects that he'll be a Boy Scout, because we're involved in Girl Scouts.

I personally would like to see the Alternaboys (Love that!!) focused on service, like you said, and environmental issues. Emphasizing the cooperative, and not just de-emphasizing the competitive. I don't think there's anything wrong with uniforms, per se, but the way that they are utilised makes a lot of difference.

Here's a question... would you keep the idea of badges and other awards, or have some other guide for each topic...?

[Marsupialmom]

When you get 6 year old boys and 6 year old girls together you would see a big difference in behavior.

I am a Cub Scout leader. When my dd started Girl Scouts as a parent helper I was amazed at the difference. There were little things that made a big difference. Fine motor skills was the biggy. My son was (still) has motor skills issues but I remember watching my oldest dd do a project that him nor any of his buddies could do at the same time, there was a 3 years difference.. I also have watched and learned how much more kinetic the boys are. I get them physical and they remember the topic. I could try the same active with the girls and they would forget the point. A good leader (boy or girl) will figure this out and figure out how to manage it. My current non-kinetic learner is usually my record keeper.

I do see these differences are changing as they grow but at the same time in my 10-12 year olds I see developmental differences.

So far, all I can think of is what these AlternaBoys would NOT be like: not paramilitary, not very hierarchical, not homophobic, not so focused on being brave and strong (though that should be PART of the guiding principles, as it is in Girl Scouting), not putting significant time into competitive athletics which boys already have plenty of opportunity to do, not based in any religion or political entity. And I can think of some traits of Boy Scouts that I would want the AlternaBoys to have, like service projects and camping.

I think you need to read through the Cub and Boy Scout books a little more with out girl eyes on. As for it being paramililty look at who is saying this and the definition of paramilitary...there is many organizations that fall in this class Salvation Army is one. Girl Scouts with their uniforms and structure at times can seem to be paramilitary. The leadership structure helped develop leader ship skills. A good troop (boy or girl) don't let this turn into a "Lord of the Flies" situations. I have seen this happen in a Girl Scout troop (why I quit). The hierarchy is suppose to be used to learn leadership. Boys and Girls (Ventureres) are suppose to move up the hierarchy and sometimes step back. It isn’t suppose to stay the same and one child stay on top.

All boys do not have access to athletics. Boys/Cub Scouts do have athletic badges but also fitness and health. Not one of our Cub Scout Troop is in a group sport. Only one of them have the physical talent (IMO)to do it. Around here Sports are expensive and only the best can compete. Majority of boys are not in the best category. Most of our families cannot afford sports. I have worked with the boys long enough for them to say strange things to me (the forget I am a girl). But I have had them admit they like doing XYZ because they have two left feet and cannot compete. Hiking and camping are sports activities that many boys enjoy because they are not competing against others. They are having to learn to work as a group. They are learning about their environments and leaving no trace behind. Pick-up games are easier to handle than structure games, alot easier to laugh at loosing.

They do work on the food pyramid, budgeting, et. They are encouraging physical fitness not athletic prowess. These fitness/sports you are competing against yourself and challenging yourself not other boys. Some athletics do include group sports but they also include single sports. They are more likely to have a throw together game that isn’t as competitive as else were in there world. I am feeling you are taking on assumptions and ignoring the boys point of view. It is hard to get around fitness and health but the athletics are set up for most single sports. I really don't understand why you think they significantly focus on this. It could be caused by me going to Boy Scout camps and seeing a lot of less physical more "geeky" young men.

*********
Boys need male involvement, especially as they get older. I am seeing this more and more. I am also seeing boys getting corrected for being rude to me. They will “snap to it” quicker coming from a man/older boy than they will a woman. Our boys are more and more growing up with out fathers they need positive male influences.

I agree with you about the homophobia issue but I have done more from the inside than I could have on the outside. When there is no one there to correct “That’s so gay” comments then it promotes ignorant. If no one points how that attitude is against the Scout Law it doesn’t change people views. I have made more grown people think about Being Friendly and Courteous than any ACLU lawyer. I think with the BSA it isn’t just the legal challenges that is going to make it change but the people within. I have asked older men if letting XYZ happen how does that teach Being Kind, Courteous, and Friendly laws. That usually makes the older men stop, think, and change.

I do struggle with the homophobia and non-athiest issues. I do not agree with them. I teach my son different. I have talked to adults about both issues. I know I have made more people think about the homosexual issue. I have made a few think about the athiest issue, but I admit with less of an impact.

[EnviroBecca]

The main thing I think needs to be different from Girl Scouts is that instead of being in default girl mode (assuming relative comfort with group conversation, emotions, and handicrafts; constant safeguards against relational aggression; aesthetically lots of pink and purple, glitter, flowers, kittycats, etc.) and pushing a bit for traditionally male skills, the AlternaBoys* would need to be in default boy mode and pushing a bit for traditionally female skills. The design of the program, from meeting rituals to uniforms to award requirements to the way official materials look, should be based around what really grabs boys' enthusiasm. This basic concept is responsible for a lot of the success of Girl Scouting, but the way for AlternaBoys to succeed would be to build from this basic principle, rather than to copy any of the specifics of Girl Scouts. For example, no new organization should sell cookies as its main fundraiser.

*Note that I'm not seriously proposing this as the name; I'm just using it as a placeholder.

Srain, thanks for the link; I hadn't heard of Roots & Shoots, and it does sound cool! You're entitled to your opinion about gendered activities. I'm opposed to them for kids under 5, and I'm opposed to spending the whole day in a single-gender school, but I think there are advantages (previously stated) to being in a single-gender environment for an hour or two a week and occasional longer stints.

Uniforms: I think they are valuable in promoting group identity, but I wouldn't require that they be worn for every activity. It's important that a uniform not be ridiculously expensive. Maybe an official T-shirt logo with each group voting on the color of T-shirt and also having their group number/name on it?

Badges: I'd like to have something along these lines to commemorate completion of a part of the program, earned by doing a certain number of things related to one area of interest. I'm not so sure about the bigger awards (like Girl Scout Gold Award, etc.) which I kind of think emphasize the individual too much. Definitely any such awards shouldn't confer a "rank" the way they do in Boy Scouts (and originally did in Girl Scouts).

I'm also not so keen on age level divisions. I understand the program has to offer new challenges as boys get older, but maybe that could work on a more fluid, individual basis, rather than a series of levels. Groups could include whatever range of ages works well for them, the handbooks could be available at several reading levels so boys could switch whenever they feel they've outgrown one, and each activity area could have several levels of badges--maybe in different shapes like GS's but without the restrictions on which age can earn each shape--if you fulfill the requirements, you can get the badge.

Marsupialmom, you're right that I don't have enough info about Boy Scouts to critique effectively. The main things that are making me ponder alternatives are hearing the experiences of my friends who were Boy Scouts in the 1970s-1990s, and the recent decisions to hold firm against gays and atheists. I'm not totally opposed to Boy Scouting--if EnviroBaby wants to join someday, I'll let him--but I think there's room for an alternative.

I didn't mean to imply that Boy Scouts promote competitive athletics. I meant that most American boys already have plenty of opportunities and pressure to participate in sports. You say it's different in your area, and I'm willing to believe that, but where I grew up and in the very different place where I now live, public schools, community centers, parks department, and some religious congregations offer elementary- and middle-school boys many opportunities to play team sports at low cost. It's only in high school that sports become more exclusive. I don't think AlternaBoys should never do any athletics at all, just that it shouldn't be a main focus; similarly, I think it's good that G.S. doesn't emphasize dancing, which lots of girls have opportunities to learn elsewhere.

When I say "paramilitary", I'm thinking of the marching, target practice, lining up to have your uniform and bed inspected, "stiff upper lip" attitude, and similar things my friends recall.

Leadership is important, but I feel that too much hierarchy distracts from community.

ITA that adult male involvement is important! I have never understood why there are Boy Scout troops with all-female adult leaders; I guess it is due to difficulty recruiting men? As a G.S. leader without a daughter, I've been surprised how uncommon it is to be one and how little the local council reaches out to women who aren't mothers of daughters. A.B. would recruit male retirees and college students as well as fathers and uncles and such.

I'm thinking the structure of A.B. could be based around the idea of a circle. Maybe each troop would be called a Circle and the larger organization would be a Great Circle. In a circle nobody is the head; everyone is equal. It also sets up for opening and closing rituals when they join hands in the circle and walk around saying a rhyme or whatever.

Another idea, based on wanting to value the environment and also needing a fundraiser: Each Circle could have its own garden where the boys grow something to sell, learning about nature and getting plenty of nice muddy exercise in the process! Maybe it wouldn't have to be a garden for every Circle but could be some kind of workshop or recycling operation or something.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by EnviroBecca

ITA that adult male involvement is important! I have never understood why there are Boy Scout troops with all-female adult leaders; I guess it is due to difficulty recruiting men?

Based on my involvement with Scouts Canada, I'm sure that's it. My son was in the program for four years, and had a total of three male leaders, one of which was dh...the only leader who stuck the entire time. In that time, we had a total of six female leaders...and the only non-parent who became involved was female. Admittedly, Scouts Canada is co-ed, but our group was only boys.

Besides...my step-brother is a leader in Ontario. Well - he was a leader. He stuck around with the Cub Pack for a year after his son reached Scout age, but he started getting funny looks from other parents when they realized he wasn't a parent. People have become so paranoid about pedophiles that it can be hard for a non-parental male to get involved.

[Marsupialmom]

Cub Scouts you see alot of moms. Boy Scouts, 6th grade up, you see more men.

Alot of dads are not available because of jobs. Some our divorced and unavialable.

[EnviroBecca]

People have become so paranoid about pedophiles that it can be hard for a non-parental male to get involved.

That's so sad! And think what it teaches our boys: that men other than dads don't care...or, if they find out why their parents don't want them to have a non-parental leader, that men in general are sick and terrifying.

Alot of dads are not available because of jobs.

Eh, that's just an excuse! I worked FT for the first two-and-a-half years I was a GS leader and work PT now. Of the 5 women I've been co-leaders with, 4 were working FT. Dads can find time to coach sports; they can find time to lead boys to be better human beings, too!