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Does Gental discipline=No discipline?? - Page 3

post #41 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama
If I want to teach my child the value of a relatively clean and organized house, how to take care of her things and that there is actually some pleasure in this, it's difficult for me to force this on her without feeling like I'm "throwing the baby out with the bath water", iykwim.
Ok, I see what you are saying. I guess the attitude my husband and I take toward that is that, this house belongs to the entire family, we all live here, we all have some responsibility to the house, and we all have to pitch in to help keep it nice, even when we don't want to. I am not shy about telling my kids two things when we encounter cleaning battles: 1) We all have jobs to do around the house. I have my jobs, you have yours, and I have neither the time nor the inclination to add your jobs on top of mine just because you don't want to do them and 2) There are plenty of times that I do things for you even though I don't want to because I know that my helped is needed/appreciated. I expect the same from you, NOT because I am the Momma and get to boss you around but because we are all mebers of this family.

Perhaps it's just a difference in the lesson we are trying to teach? I know that I, for one, know that I have to take care of the house because my family depends on me to do it, even though I find no pleasure in it whatsoever!

I'm trying to think of an instance where I found that behavior management defeated the purpose of the lesson ... thinking ... thinking ... I'll have to get back to you on that!

Namaste!
post #42 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by dharmamama
Does this hold true for adults, too? Because I understand the reasons for not speeding, but I still do it anyway.

Namaste!
ME TOO!
post #43 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunnysideup
I wasn't talking about you specifically.
Sorry for the misunderstanding. Because you quoted my post, I took it personally. Just a problem with conversations online!
post #44 of 104
GD is not no disciple. To me at least it means calling on a higher duty than merely fear of punishment. I want my children to be noble in their words and deeds. If I want that, they need to know I have confidence in them, that they can have empathy and understanding. It is working for my family.
post #45 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by dharmamama
Perhaps it's just a difference in the lesson we are trying to teach? I know that I, for one, know that I have to take care of the house because my family depends on me to do it, even though I find no pleasure in it whatsoever!

Namaste!
No, I think we're on the same wave length. But, I was addressing the issue of something dragging out. Talking to DC about helping, taking care of her stuff and etc. is not a quick fix in our house. It's one of those things that "drags out" and that's OK. The teenager with the messy room isn't a classic because everyone before us didn't it wrong. It's a classic because these thigns take time.

I thought of an even better example regarding the "dragging out" thing and it's something that I think could be interpreted as no-discipline.

DC has a friend and they weren't getting along (no physical violence). There is quite a bit we could have done to change this quickly. We could have threatened. We could have prevented it by watching closer or by restricting play times. But, what we did was just let them work it out. We did nothing, basically (other than watch for excessively hurt feelings). And, it took time. But, everything that was needed for them to learn the main message was already there. Us getting involved would have interfered. They worked it out and are better of because of how it came about. This happens a lot with our family.
post #46 of 104
OK, I'll put in my 2 cents.....by using a hypothetical situation and a few various reactions to it with various parenting styles.....obviously there are limitless variations and in betweens, I'm just trying to point out some of the more common.

Joe and Bill are at the playground. Both are 3 years old. Joe whacks Bill on the head when Bill takes a nearby toy.


NO DISCIPLINE#1: Joe's parent is completely oblivious, or sees it happen but shrugs and says "boys will be boys" and says nothing to Joe.

NO DISCIPLINE #2: Joe's parent screams from their seat on a nearby bench, "Joe, cut that out!" or "Joe, that isn't nice, stop it.", but does not get up and does not address the situation beyond that.

GENTLE DISCIPLINE: Joe's parent goes to Bill and makes sure he is OK. Joe's parent then takes Joe aside and tells him that hitting people is not OK, and that it hurts them, and briefly tells Joe some ways he can *talk* to Bill and get his point across. Joe is asked if he can think of anything that might make Bill feel better (and maybe parent suggests that apologies or hugs sometimes make people feel better). Joe's parent asks Joe if he thinks he'll be able to go back and play with Bill without hurting him, or if he needs some time to calm down. The parent is interacting by squatting down to Joe's eye level, and talking about the situation. Some GD parents do opt for time outs for physical aggression, but they can be open ended ('when you feel able to not hit", or just as a "cool off time" to separate and short circuit the situation...but they do not yell at the child during the time, or breate or shame them.) They will probably also talk about it later that night and see if they can come up with alternatives for expressing anger or frustration with his friends.

NON-GENTLE DISCIPLINE: Joe's parent storms over, yanks Joe towards Bill, yelling at him 'what's wrong with you?' or, 'stop being bad' and forces Joe to apologize to Bill. Joe's parent may (or may not) spank Joe (how ironic), while continuing to berate him for hitting his friend. Joe's parent is standing the whole time, towering over Joe. Joe may be forced to sit in a time out for being 'bad', while being scolded more, and/or Joe may be forced to leave the playground. Joe may have some completely unrelated privilege revoked that night at home.



Clearly, the GD reaction is NOT "doing nothing"...it is just NOT yelling at or hitting your child. The GD parent would also be aware enough of their child's development to complie this situation with other recent situations, and understand maybe Joe just isn't ready to socialize in this situation, or if maybe Joe is overtired or hungry, and adjust his social interactions and outings accordingly.


I think we can all agree the no discipline scenario would be the "out of control" kid, but through no real fault of his own, if he's never taught about being gentle to others...and the non-gentle scenario just teaches the child that it's oK for the parent to be mean to them, but not OK for them to be mean to anyone else (nice double standard).

Anyway, just my thoughts, take 'em or leave 'em...

ETA: Obviously, none of these reactions will guarantee that Joe will never hit anyone ever again...but it is more likely it will stop *sooner* with the GD reaction than others, because Joe is *learning* about hitting and will understand it sooner, instead of just resorting to hitting people when he won't "get caught" (non-gentle), or not learning that he shouldn't do it (no discipline). In actuality, GD is MORE effort than no discipline AND non-gentle, because it is a continuous dialogue with your child, as opposed to a quick fix.
post #47 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by sassafras12
For us GD means that all of our "discipline" begins with our "attachment" as the base from which to work from. I try to look at every situation within the framework that a child has to "feel right to act right". Is DD feeling overwhlemed, hungry, unsure, tired? So we concentrate on our attachment first, that go on to deal with the problem at hand.
ITA with that

Kids KNOW that parents have authority. If you have to enforce it, that may be a sign that the attachment needs attention.
I personally not punish, and try, in general, to not coerce. I think I discipline my ds more than some mainstreamers. I don't generally ignore behaviors, or "pick my battles." If I don't like what he's doing, I tell him. I tell him how his actions affect others. Then, depending on the situation, I may leave it at that and let him choose what to do. Or I may redirect, give more information, give acceptable alternatives, etc.
As he gets older (he's 18 mos now) I can see more and more often, that giving him that original information as to how his action is affecting others, he's choosing to do the "socially acceptable thing." And he's almost always open to redirection, or acceptable alternatives.
The only time we have problems, is when I'm not acknowledging him and his needs/desires (when I'm tired, frustrated, etc). But once we get back on track, its all good again.

eta: good hypotheticals donosmommy. I think those demonstrate well the difference between gd and no discipline.
post #48 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rivka5

The power imbalance between parents and children is the reason why, when my daughter hits me, she gets a gentle correction - when, if my husband hit me, I would leave him.
Thought provoking!
post #49 of 104
GREAT examples/scenerios, donosmommy! You explained things really well
post #50 of 104
donosmommy from me too!
post #51 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by dharmamama
Maybe. Or maybe the child will decide that the discomfort of the helmet is worse than the risk of head injury and go without the helmet.

Then it's up to the parent to decide whether the issue is "worth it" enough to them to set a limit.

It often seems that people who don't believe in using punishment assume that those of us who do punish jump straight to it without any other attempts to discipline. I think that is generally untrue. I think the main difference between myself and those who don't punish at all is their length of tolerance for a problem not being resolved. I am not willing to let certain problems drag on for days, weeks, or months.

Namaste!
Yep me too!
If Adults who have as fully developed reasoning abilities and impulse control as they ever will still use the "But it wont happen to me" argument when it comes to making decisions that go against reasonable safety, I think it is only reasonable to expect that children will sometimes do the same.
So yes it is very important to teach them WHY they have to do things. However I think it is equally important to enforce that they have to do things regardless of whether or not they have internalized the reason. They might decide that the risk of a head injury that they have never seen or felt is less than the risk of mom's anger/consequence.

And ditto to the second part too.
Joline
post #52 of 104
But we all know that we don't "have to" do things we don't want to do as adults, it is only as children and prisoners that one is *made* to do things one doesn't want to do. : Do you really want to discuss this AGAIN?

Pat
post #53 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by dharmamama
I believe you, but this board is filled with stories of problems that have dragged on for days, weeks, or months.
OK, I read up to here and have to post - I didn't read anything after this and don't know if it got covered...

As one who has posted about a couple of issues that have been dragging on for months, let me be crystal clear.

They have dragged on for so long beacuse of a lack of respect on either my part or other caregivers' parts - not because the child's feelings were considered and boundaries respected.

I have written in asking for others' ideas about getting through such problem in a respectful way, without just forcing my will for things to be neat and convenient.

Putting one's foot down without regard to a child's feelings may delay the issues even for years, but it will resurface somehow, someway - someday. In working to respectfully deal with lengthy issues with my son who has limited ability to express fear, anger, worry, or disappointment, I am not allowing him to "run the show". I am helping him process now what is causing him distress, instead of teaching him to stuff it down, and facing what has hurt him instead of leaving him to sort it out as a teen...

Sure it takes longer to actually deal with feeling, issues, and needs than it does to train a kid to act like you want them to. Is that really the point? And do we have to ask that again? Didn't we decide the better route on that one when we all decided here that CIO is out?

At what age should a parent stop allowing a child to have real needs? Sometime after infancy? When they can talk? I mean, geez, the newborn colicy crying dragged on for months, but I let him have that issue for a long time! Should I have put a stop to it? Made a rule? No crying when Mommy is tired? No needing to be held when Mommy's back hurts?


I understand this was not directed as a personal statement to me, but as a mama who fit your above description, I think I get to correct that misunderstanding.
post #54 of 104
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama
OP,

Would you mind participating on your own thread a little more before you start expressing your lack of respect for GD on new threads with people new to GD?

.
I thought i made it clear on the thread 'What exactly IS gentle discipline? How/where do I start? that i posted on that Erika, the poster, is my friend. she is actually my best friend so i know her and her problems very well. we have talked about GD a lot and i just wanted her to know she is a good mom even if she has hard mommy days. I was not in anyway trying to discourage her from GD but i also dont want her 10 month old getting hurt by her big brothers when they hit her. She has to keep all her kids safe.

though i may have not posted much on the subject i have been on mothering forums and reading these threads for 5 yrs. my question stemmed from seeing parents GD and also seeing how the way some people practice it CAN mean very little discipline and the children are a mess. now this does not apply to all GD parents since everyone has their own way. thats why i created the thread in order to see how others think and see if there is a way to do it and be an effective parent. I have really welcomed all your answers and i think its been a good debate.
post #55 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by scubamama
But we all know that we don't "have to" do things we don't want to do as adults, it is only as children and prisoners that one is *made* to do things one doesn't want to do. : Do you really want to discuss this AGAIN?

Pat
We all know that this is what you believe, yes this is true. But having discussed it already ad infinitum, hasnt changed everybody's mind on this. I dont think starting over will help any.
post #56 of 104
Neglect is not GD. Not even close. Why do you put it under that banner?
post #57 of 104
Thread Starter 
"Joe's parent goes to Bill and makes sure he is OK. Joe's parent then takes Joe aside and tells him that hitting people is not OK, and that it hurts them, and briefly tells Joe some ways he can *talk* to Bill and get his point across. Joe is asked if he can think of anything that might make Bill feel better (and maybe parent suggests that apologies or hugs sometimes make people feel better). Joe's parent asks Joe if he thinks he'll be able to go back and play with Bill without hurting him, or if he needs some time to calm down. "

This is how i would deal with it the FIRST TIME. but i have seen it a billion times that little Joe looks at his mommy and says, "O.K. i wont hit" and turns around walks up to bill and wacks him over the head again. Joes mom in turn squats down and talks things threw and the whole thing goes through this cycle many times. when something isnt effective then its basically like you are doing nothing IMO. I also think having your child apoligize it very important!!!

IF Joe goes and hits bill again, and i am Joe's Mommy. i take Joe and remove him from the play ground so he cant hurt bill or anyone else.
post #58 of 104
There is not a person alive who has always remembered everything they "should" everytime - esp if its something that isn't important to them.

Why would you expect that a child should? It's not only age-inappropriate, it's human-inappropriate.

Very unreal expectaions.
post #59 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by aira
Neglect is not GD. Not even close. Why do you put it under that banner?
Neglect and GD are both in the eye of the beholder.

I have seen/heard things which are described as GD by the parent but which appeared to my biased eyes to be neglectful.
It is not quite so simply cut and dried to say "This is GD" and "That is Neglect" and here is where the clear cut boundary is.
post #60 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by aira
There is not a person alive who has always remembered everything they "should" everytime - esp if its something that isn't important to them.

Why would you expect that a child should? It's not only age-inappropriate, it's human-inappropriate.

Very unreal expectaions.
Nobody is saying that a child should always remember what they should do every time. That has not once been mentioned or implied.
What has been said that a child who does remember and who still chooses to do contrary might be considered by some parents in a position to do something more than just get a talking to. Perhaps being removed from the situation (or playground as it were)
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