Immediate response without threats?

[dalbert]

I really hate having to threaten my child with consequences if she doesn't respond to my words, but I don't know what else to do to get an immediate response from her. Okay, so here is my latest example of many. Dh is a high school drama teacher about to put on a big production. I've been taking dd to the rehearsals, which she loves, but she's become so familiar with the actors that she has started calling out to them when they are on stage performing. When I tell her she needs to be quiet because they are performing and it is not okay to talk during a performance, she completely ignores me and continues to call out to them. I can't take the time to have any more chit chat about the issue, I need her to stop immediately. So I tell her that if I hear one more peep out of her while they are performing we will be going home. She complies and settles into my lap to quietly enjoy the rest of the performance. It seems like it always has to come to me making a threat to get her to take me seriously and something in me doesn't feel right about using threats to get her compliance. Maybe this particular example is kind of a natural consequence that if you talk during a performance then you are asked to leave, but I'm the one enforcing it, so it appears like I'm exerting my power over her. Okay, so another quick example....she's fussing about what she'd rather eat while I'm in the middle of making a breakfast that we had already agreed upon. After talking through it this way and that with her, and her whining the whole time, I start to feel like I can't take it anymore and my emotions are going to come into play at any moment. So, I finally have to tell her that if she fusses one more time, she won't be getting breakfast at all. She goes to the table and sits down, ready to eat.

It's so darn effective....but it doesn't feel right. What else can I do to get that immediate response? Any ideas?

[4evermom]

With the theater example, it would be easy to phrase it in a nonthreatening manner. You can say that we are not allowed to talk during performances and will have to leave if we want to talk. Do you see how that is different than saying "if you don't be quiet, we are going home"?

With the breakfast situation, I would consider letting her change her mind and just try to be patient. Or just put what you are making on the table and tell her she can eat it or not (in a pleasant tone, of course). Maybe you could set out a few other things at the same time so she feels she has a choice while avoiding feeling like a short order cook. I know it's tempting to use threats when they are so effective, but keep in mind that they won't stay effective. I do think that an immediate response is generally not something that should be expected. Try not to be short term goal oriented. It's better to work toward long term results of having a relationship free from threats and resentment (Sorry if this sounds preachy).

[Piglet68]

Originally Posted by dalbert

After talking through it this way and that with her, and her whining the whole time, I start to feel like I can't take it anymore and my emotions are going to come into play at any moment. So, I finally have to tell her that if she fusses one more time, she won't be getting breakfast at all.

I added the bold to make my point. The problem isn't your daughter's behviour, which sounds pretty normal for a young child (you don't say how old she is, but I'm assuming she is young), the problem is how it is affecting you. So that should be your focus. Focus on giving yourself little breaks, or practising mantras or deep breathing to calm yourself. The issue is how YOU respond to her, not what she is doing. That's a separate issue.

As for the theatre problem, if she was really young, like under 5 or so, I would say it's just not appropriate to bring her. If she is older, then I agree with the above poster that you can let her know the consequence is leaving without implying it is something YOU are imposing on her. The simple removal of a power-issue can make all the difference.

[mamaduck]

I agree that the key is in the phrasing. "We are only allowed to stay if we are quiet while they are acting. If we call out to them, then we have to leave."

For the mealtime issues... I have been there, and it is frustrating. As a matter of fact, I was just there this morning! I asked Ds (5 yo) if he wanted pancakes. He sleepily replied that yes, he did. I made the pancakes. He came down, took one look, and started wailing that he didn't want pancakes, and why didn't I ask him what he wanted before I made it??!! He would not believe me that I had asked him. Finally I just said, "I already made one breakfast. You can choose to eat it or not, but I'm not making another. Feel free to offer the pancakes to your brother and help yourself to anything healthy that interests you. But please don't ask me to fix it." After 5 minutes of sulking, he ate the pancakes.

[Rivka5]

In the theater, as soon as she made a sound I'd pick her up and carry her out to the hall, explaining in a whisper, "If we want to talk, we need to stay outside. We can't interrupt." Going all the way home, or threatening to, seems like overkill to me. A more natural consequence is leaving the theater proper - it immediately removes the disturbance to the actors, but allows your daughter to self-correct and go back in.

With breakfast, if I wasn't willing to be a short-order cook, I would offer some sympathy: "Oh, you really wanted waffles. I wish I'd known that, because I'm already cooking your eggs. That's too bad." I'd offer some options: "Hopefully the eggs will still taste good anyway; if they don't, you can get yourself some cereal. Let me know, and I'll help you pour the milk. And you can have a waffle for lunch."

That would probably be about as much as I wanted to go into it. Further grousing would get an abbreviated response: "I know, you'd rather have waffles. Next time, let's be sure we get your final answer before I start cooking."

Then, as Piglet says, I'd use coping strategies to keep *myself* calm, and to keep myself out of the power struggle. Deep breathing, singing, making jokes, and distraction (focusing on something else) all work well for me.

[dalbert]

Originally Posted by Rivka5
A more natural consequence is leaving the theater proper - it immediately removes the disturbance to the actors, but allows your daughter to self-correct and go back in.

Good point...I'm a huge fan of giving her opportunities to self-correct so that she feels empowered by the experience. And, in fact, I did do this very thing at a different rehearsal in which she started fussing about something, but I had the voice in my head advising me that she needed to eat the food I had brought but that she couldn't eat it in the theatre itself. But even without the hunger/food factor, it would be better to give her a chance to pull herself together and return.

Originally Posted by Rivka5
With breakfast, if I wasn't willing to be a short-order cook, I would offer some sympathy: "Oh, you really wanted waffles. I wish I'd known that, because I'm already cooking your eggs. That's too bad." I'd offer some options: "Hopefully the eggs will still taste good anyway; if they don't, you can get yourself some cereal. Let me know, and I'll help you pour the milk. And you can have a waffle for lunch."

See, the thing is...I fear being too accomodating for her will make her spoiled and inflexible. I do say things like "I understand you wanted waffles, but you started out wanting eggs and now I've already started the eggs". Then she works herself up into a frenzy screaming "I want another chance! I want another chance to ask for waffles!!" If I let it keep going, it starts to turn into personal attacks, like "You're a bad mommy!" So I feel like I need to put a halt to it before it gets to that point, but the problem is that I'm in the middle of cooking and cannot give her my full attention.

Originally Posted by Piglet68
The problem isn't your daughter's behviour, which sounds pretty normal for a young child (you don't say how old she is, but I'm assuming she is young), the problem is how it is affecting you. So that should be your focus. Focus on giving yourself little breaks, or practising mantras or deep breathing to calm yourself. The issue is how YOU respond to her, not what she is doing. That's a separate issue.

She's 4. Yes, I realize that my own emotions need to stay out of it, which is why I stay aware of when they are creeping in and resort to an array of tactics to help calm myself. But dd does not want me to refocus on anything but her. If I put calming music on (which I actually did in this particular breakfast instance), she starts screaming "turn off the music!!". I've also tried mantras like "I control my own feelings" along with deep breathing but these things just escalate her further. It's almost like she's screaming out for me to draw a line with her because once I do, she calms right down and settles in behind the line. It seems like it's ineffective to draw that line unless there is a consequence on the other side of it. But I suspect this might be where my wiggle room is....figuring out how I can draw that line for her without setting a consequence that isn't a natural consequence (I'm quite fond of using natural consequences to direct behavior).

Originally Posted by Piglet68
As for the theatre problem, if she was really young, like under 5 or so, I would say it's just not appropriate to bring her.

To ban her from attending rehearsals would be a tragic loss all around because 1) it's the only time she and her father get to see each other until the play opens and these rehearsals finally end (which, thankfully, is tomorrow); 2) she LOVES going; 3) it is such a lovely and much needed break for me to have something that engages her so well; 4) the students adore her and ask her to come back all the time; 5) she occassionally gets to sing and dance on a stage with a mic in front of a hugely receptive audience....what an awesome experience for her! Plus, one of the only things I can do to help dh is to take him food and coffee and give him opportunities to steal some moments with his daughter.

Originally Posted by 4evermom
Try not to be short term goal oriented. It's better to work toward long term results of having a relationship free from threats and resentment

Yes, that is exactly my concern about directing her behavior through (unnatural) consequences.

I'm feeling like the theatre thing is a natural conseqence, but I could phrase it a bit differently so that it is more evidently so and keep the consequence to having to leave the theatre until she is able to behave according to theatre rules so that she has an opportunity to self-correct. But these other instances of her acting out so dramatically until I draw a line perhaps are indicative that she really does need to have her boundaries clearly defined for her. The problem is that she also needs to understand what happens when she crosses those boundaries, and if there is no natural consequence available, I feel compelled to create a consequence. Because what is a boundary if nothing changes when you cross it?

[The4OfUs]

Originally Posted by dalbert

But these other instances of her acting out so dramatically until I draw a line perhaps are indicative that she really does need to have her boundaries clearly defined for her. The problem is that she also needs to understand what happens when she crosses those boundaries, and if there is no natural consequence available, I feel compelled to create a consequence. Because what is a boundary if nothing changes when you cross it?

There are mamas here far better versed at the "expectations but no punishment" thing, but I'm thinking that's where you might need to go here...but I could be way off base, my kid is only recently 2.

The idea, as I understand it, is to clearly, consistently, unwaveringly state the expectations, and never let the expectation go away...but if it isn't met at any one particular time, you don't punish because of it, you just move on and state the expectation again at a separate time. It has to do with a certain amount of disengaging in "the battle", and just stating your expectations....yoooo hoooo, paging maya44, you are my resident Anthony Wolf guru , I'm sure you can explain it better.

[dalbert]

Originally Posted by donosmommy04
The idea, as I understand it, is to clearly, consistently, unwaveringly state the expectations, and never let the expectation go away...but if it isn't met at any one particular time, you don't punish because of it, you just move on and state the expectation again at a separate time. It has to do with a certain amount of disengaging in "the battle", and just stating your expectations....yoooo hoooo, paging maya44, you are my resident Anthony Wolf guru , I'm sure you can explain it better.

Yes! Yes! Yes!!!!! That is exactly the kind of approach I'm needing to aquaint myself with. Anthony Wolf.....I'm on it. I'm also going to send a note to maya44 and urge her to chime in. THANK YOU!

[The4OfUs]

You're welcome! I'm sure she'll be helpful...she directed me to Wolf's book "The Secret of Parenting...." and based on reading it, I picked up his other book "Mom, Jason's Breathing on me: The solution to sibling rivalry" and I am loving that one, too.

Hope you don't mind a little adulation, maya44!

[maya44]

Wow you guys are so nice. This "method" of parenting really works for me and my family.

I think one key aspect is it is that under it parents do not view themselves as on the same level as their children. I am sure some here would have a problem with that as not respectful ennough of children, but veiwed from the opposite end, it sure keeps me from feeling that my child is not "respecting me" or any some such thing. I am not hurt or angry when my dd's talked "disrespectfully" to me because I simply don't take these things personally when it comes from my child. Anthony Wolf is very good at explaining why the mean things a chld says to you really does not "count" in the way they would with an adult.

As for "drawing the line" without an consequence well I have done that for all of my years as a parent. My expectations remain in place. You are told that you are expected to meet them and if you don't I remind them that they are expected to the next time. It is really very effective, yet gentle.


In any event for the Theater Problem, given how nice it is sometimes to take her, I would just explain as described by the PP's how one is requried to be quiet there and thus we will have to leave if you talk.

If she does, I would always pick up and leave, but not act mad or upset. Just a "we will come back tomorrow" and that is it.

If she starts tantruming or yelling i would ignore the tantrum, but not her. I would ask "do you need a hug" if she refuses I would also offer empathy and sympathy but then just move on. Talk about something else. Don't get caught up in it.

This is what I would do with the food issue, I think that disengagning strategies would be the most helpful to you.


So its "DD I am sorry you don't want the pancakes but that is what you asked for and I simply can't make something else today."

I would ignore any whining, yelling etc...excpet to empathise and sympathize.

A good strategy for me was to busy myself with something else close by and say something like "if you need me I'll be in the dining room sorting out the silverware".

I would be happy to answer any questions or talk about any other situations either here on in a PM.

[dalbert]

Thanks for posting maya44! That is a really interesting idea to shift my paradigm so that I see myself on a different level in an effort to not be so affected by dd's attacks. I do feel wounded when she is so blatently disrespectful towards me. I've tried telling her how it makes me feel in hopes that she'd come to understand and choose not to make me feel that way in the future, but that hasn't been effective. I've also tried covering up my true reaction with a show of being unaffected in an effort to redirect without emotion, but those hurt feelings are often just under the surface. What I really need is to not be hurt in the first place by her words and actions. And though I've aknowledged that need for quite some time, I've always just figured I'm not the kind of person that can be unaffected by such things because I've always been very sensitive to personal attacks (and received more than my fair share as a kid!)

I also like the idea of being sympathetic but yet utilizing disengaging strategies. That seems like it might be just the thing for that "I need you but I don't want you" kind of attitude that she sometimes takes on. It feels like I can't win with that, but maybe this would work.

Regarding the expectations without consequences, it just makes so much sense in theory. So much of my own behavior is guided by expectations (often times my own), not consequences. Consequences are often times there in some form or another (without anyone forcing them upon me), but even when they're not, I'm still guided by the expectation. But on the other hand, it's not like I was raised this way....I was raised with spanking, yelling, and being grounded...but I somehow ended up being guided by expectations. But maybe some of that childhood defiance can be averted by going straight to the expectations rather than fooling around with more hurtful consequences. So the big question is whether it will be effective. What works with one kid might not work with another.

I'm very intrigued and have ordered Wolf's book so that I can delve into the details and start trying this approach out right away. Thanks so much for this guidance!!

[maya44]

One thing that I have always believed and Wolf's books helped me solidify is that I believe that children need to have someone with whom they feel totally safe and comfortable and around whom they feel safe letting their "worst selves" out.

I feel that this is one of my "jobs" as a parent. I can't feel hurt or mad at what my dd's say to me because I am happy that they feel comfortable ennough around me to say it....that they know that NOTHING they say (or do) will change how I feel about them.

This is why I truly dislike comparing the parent/child relationship to any other relationship. I owe my child so much more than any other person (including IMO guiding them, setting limits, making some decisions in their best interest even if it makes them unhappy in the short run) and my child owes me so much less than any other person with whom I could have such a close relationship. (of course this does not mean I will not have expectations for their behavior, it just means that not meeting those expectations will never change my feelings and enormous love for them).

[dharmamama]

How about asking the performers to tell your daughter that it's distracting to them and makes it hard for them to perform when she's trying to talk to them?

When my kids change their mind as I am making what they have just requested, I simply tell them, "This is what you asked for and I have already started making it." Then I ask them to go sit at the table in preparation for eating.

Namaste!