What all is Non-negotiable?

[WuWei]

I would think that if something were *truly* Non-negotiable, we could all agree on it. Besides making a child get into a stroller to go for a walk what else does *everyone* agree is "non-negotiable" and Must be forced against a child's will if they don't agree/consent/comply/obey? Besides that which is truly Life Threatening.

Btw, there was a study done of the same nature. Amazingly, not *everyone* could agree that some of the most common activities forced on children were "non-negotiable", so perhaps the actions forced on children are "selectively non-negotiable". http://www.takingchildrenseriously.c...cs_survey_1997

Obviously, wearing diapers is not universally non-negotiable even on this forum, "having to" get into the carseat and go somewhere is not universally non-negotiable, shampooing hair is not universally non-negotiable; vaccination is not universally non-negotiable; going to school/daycare is not universally non-negotiable; going to the dentist is not universally non-negotiable; brushing teeth, taking a bath, eating vegetables, eating what is served at dinner or going to bed without, bedtimes, leaving the park, timeouts, saying thank you, going to church, going to the grocery store, sitting at the dinner table, etc.

So, what activities do you feel comfortable forcing your child to do against their will because they are truly non-negotiable? I am wondering if perhaps we could agree on what is truly non-negotiable; or is the use of coercion and force just a subjective *unwillness* to consider/continue negotiating for the sake of expediency? (ie. force is justified because 'I am in a hurry ("it is time to do xyz") and I don't want to deal with negotiating about this any longer in a more cooperative/respectful fashion'.) Or is it the lack of negotiation skills or lack of communication tools? Or is it just a commonly held belief that one has a right to decide to force others to do what one wants "for their own good", because she is the parent?

I honestly do not understand the paradox. We instruct our children not to use force to get their way. But....many adults model the use of force to get their way. How can our children learn from the inconsistency of our words from our actions? The Center for Non-violent Communications has many communication tools for more effective conflict resolution. See www.CNVC.org.

However, I believe there is a mutually agreeable alternative available which can be found that respects the child's body space integrity instead. Perhaps, we could continue to seek those together instead of advocating the default to force, except perhaps when it is *truly* and universally necessary due to a life threatening event. When is that?

Pat

[TeaBag]

Well, one of the key phrases in our house is Safety Rules are Non-Negotiable. And everything else is. Seriously. If it's a safety rule, it is never going to be negotiated. You either hold my hand crossing the parking lot, or you will get carried. It is your choice. You will ride in your carseat. You will not touch sharp knives (which, obviously are kept out of reach, but when they are helping prepare dinner). I will run your bathwater to ensure a safe temperature. Anything that threatens their being, or someone elses' is a safety rule.

But anything else, negotiable. Diapers? Negotiable....which, honestly is why I think my girls potty learned before they were two. Dessert before dinner? negotiable. Eating on the floor like a picnic. Fun!

But we find mutually agreeable alternatives on a daily basis. When I want to do______ and they want to do _________, we compromise. I want to go to the store, like this morning, but dd wanted to dally over her breakfast. We had to get to the store, and she had dance, and ds had a dr appt, so it couldn't wait until later. So we brought her pancakes with us, and she ate them like a sandwich. Hey, whatever works. She didn't go hungry, I got more food for us, and there was no meltdown.

[Think of Winter]

Well, I have one for you. My son is diabetic. Most of the time he is very accepting of his blood sugar tests, but lately he's been saying no. We've tried waiting, offerring different sites, and doing mommy's at the same time, but sometimes it's still no. Eventually we have to do it anyway, and we do it as quickly and gently as possible. This is not usually a "life-threatening" issue, but the impact on his health is immediate and significant. Any suggestions on this? I know it's not a common activity by any means, but it's important to us and I welcome advice.

We also occassionally put him in his carseat against his will. I just don't have the patience to wait out his reluctance to get in, and you've gotta get home/store/etc sometimes, right? Suggestions for this, too?

One more question. How much reluctance on your child's part gets your attention, so to speak? Any at all, or somewhere between mild and requiring physical force?

[maya44]

I don't think that it is one bit suprising that only life or death things are UNIVESALLY non-negotiable.

Of course people will disagree as to other things.

While I respect your position I think it that you fail to really understand that some of us believe that it is our role as a parent to make decisions for our childen that are non-negotiable because they simply do not have the life experience/judgment/impulse control to be able to make these decisions for themselves. And that it our duty to do so.

I do not necesarily believe some of these things are UNIVERSALLY non-negotiable but they are NON-negotiable FOR ME.

These do include school, vaccinations (no debates here please, I am well informed), taking medication, kindness torwards others, sitting with the family during meals etc...

Now when I say they are not negotiable what I mean is that I am not going to negotiate with my child to reach a different decision. But I am not going to use the same AMOUNT of "force" (as you put it) for all of them. I am going to use more "force" to keep my child safe (for example physically restraing them from running in the street) then I am for the sitting at the table at family dinners.(where my "force" is that I tell my children that this is what I expect of them and if they don't do it, I would tell them that I expect them to do it the next time).

In other words, I am not going to negotiate the "sitting at the family table" rule, but I am not going to use much force to enforce it.

[karlin]

Interesting thread.


I only have a few things I don't negotiate on. All relate to safety. One is having to be in the carseat when the vehicle is moving. I will negotiate how long it takes to get in, whether he puts himself in or I do, etc. If I have the time, I will wait for him to get in, because I doubt I could force him to sit there if I wanted to.

My son is never forced to bathe, eat, sleep, brush teeth, wear diapers, etc. He does choose to do most of those things on his own right now (except bathe for some weird reason, but he doesn't mind being washed with a washcloth...so we're cool..lol).

I admit I can be kind of snippy with him when I'm PMSing and in a hurry, but most times if he protests something, we try to work on a solution.

[Yooper]

There are no "non-negotiables" in our house in theory. I can think of a handful of times that I failed to either read cues or be creative enough and we got backed into a non-negotiable situation. The last one I can remember is grocery shopping right before Christmas. Our co-op closes at 8pm and we got out just as they locked the doors and turned the sign. I had my arms full of groceries and the wind chill was well below zero with snow whipping all over. Dd did not want to get in the car but was also crying because she was cold. Apparently she had wanted a fruit leather but did not mention it while we were inside because she was being played with by one of the emplyess. I dropped the groceries in the trunk and tried knocking on the door, but no one heard us. There are no nearby businesses. She was adament about not getting in the car. I ended up putting her in the car against her will. I did not put her in her seat, but did get the car and heat going until she calmed down enough to go in her seat. She ALWAYS gets a fruit leather in the store and I just forgot. So after she calmed down, we drove to another grocery store and got the leather and she was OK (but still offended). I felt bad. Stuff like this has happened a few times. And while I can see what I could have done to prevent it, I did not know what to do once we got to that spot (in the parking lot).

For us, it is never the "Classic" stuff like shots or meds or carseats. Dd had blood drawn today at the WIC office. I started to explain to dd what was going to happen (I did not know beforehand) and the nurse said that I should not tell ehr, just do it. Um, no. I explained that we needed the blood to see how healthy her blood was and that it was going to hurt a little. I showed her the stuff, explained the procedure, showed her the bandaid she would wear afterwards then asked if it was OK to do. She said yes. If she had said no, I would have told the nurse no. The whole explanation took 60 seconds.....much shorter than I remember my doc taking to pull me out from under the examination table to get a shot forced on me as a child. If she had siad no to the draw, I could have rescheduled the blood draw and spent the time to get some books from the library or a video to show dd what was going to happen. We could practice on her baby or bear. We could talk to other kids that had it done. We could pick out a special bandaid. As long as I am honest all of the time, dd trusts that I am only suggesting things in her best interest. We have done docs, xrays, meds, etc with no problem at all.

[TeaBag]

Maybe I misunderstood the question. Just because I only say that safety rules are non negotiable, does not mean that we do not have rules. But we use other means to enforce those rules. Yes, we like everyone to sit at the table for family dinner. This is expected of our family. So we all sit down to dinner together. If someone is finished eating and ready to leave the table, I engage them in further conversation, not to force them to stay, but because we are enjoying their company. However, if they insist on leaving the table, for whatever reason, that is their choice. But they will excuse themselves and take their plates to the counter. Not because we've *forced* this behavior, but because that's what's been modeled to them. We model behavior we wish to see, we make decisions based on what is best for the family as a whole. Yes, sometimes ds is disappointed because I won't let him have yet another cookie before dinner, but as the adult, I know that if he eats too many cookies 20 minutes before dinner, he will not be hungry for dinner and then will have a stomach ache from eating nothing but junk. We also have done a "Well, I am not going to say you may not have another cookie, but if you get a stomach ache from eating too many, please do not complain to me." So that he learns from his own experiences what happens if you eat junk instead of healthy food....so it's not to say there are no rules, what I mean is that safety rules are the only ones that are completely non negotiable. In fact, it's funny to hear my 2 yr old say "everyone in your carseat, safety rules are non negotiable" :

[Magella]

Originally Posted by maya44

I don't think that it is one bit suprising that only life or death things are UNIVESALLY non-negotiable.

Of course people will disagree as to other things.

I agree with Maya on this. I don't think that you'll see people agree on what is non-negotiable except on life and death issues (and even then I'm not so sure everyone will always agree).

Originally Posted by maya44

Now when I say they are not negotiable what I mean is that I am not going to negotiate with my child to reach a different decision. But I am not going to use the same AMOUNT of "force" (as you put it) for all of them. I am going to use more "force" to keep my child safe (for example physically restraing them from running in the street) then I am for the sitting at the table at family dinners.(where my "force" is that I tell my children that this is what I expect of them and if they don't do it, I would tell them that I expect them to do it the next time).

This is more or less what non-negotiable in my home looks like as well. I'm not going to use physical force except to protect my kids, which is rare. But there are things I don't negotiate on, we just find other ways to engage cooperation and we model it and make it clear that's what we expect. No punishment, but no negotiation either. That said, the number of non-negotiable matters is small as compared to the vast number of issues on which we are happy to negotiate. (non-negotiables here, by our choice, include going to school, going to pick up children from school, and assisting in care of the house, among probably a few other things. How (or under what conditions or when) any of it gets done may be negotiable in some way, but getting it done is not negotiable, yk?)

But I'm not sure that I'm entirely clear about what you object to and wish to discuss, Pat. Is it the use of physical force you're objecting to in this thread? Or is it the idea of "non-negotiable" (even if physical force isn't used)? Or both?

[aira]

For us there are degrees of negotiation for almost everything - barring times I might physically move him from the street, or something. The life-threatening things. But I suppose that there are limits to how far a negotiation can go. Like, I'll work with DS about how he's dressed to go outside, but it won't end in his playing naked in the snow. But I think that's still in the realm of negotiation, because from DS's side, he won't be going out in a snowsuit, hat, and mittens! We find a happy medium.

Even exploring knives is negotiable! If I'm cooking and DS wants to cut with me, I give him a butter knife to use. He usually decides after a minute that it's not a cool as mom's and want's my knife. If I am at a point I can pause, I help him explore it. We work out something that we both like. Sometimes I'm too wrapped in cooking and tell him I'll be happy to show him the knife when I get to a stopping point. It doesn't end with DS juggling knives, even though he sometimes gets very insistent about doing just that. But I still consider that negotiating. He can explore the knives and I can feel safe about it.

About the carseat... I feel that my rediculous amounts of time spent when DS was very little getting him out of the seat every little time he cried or whimpered or wanted anything, was an investment. He loves the car now. But I also employ (and did even when DS was an infant) DVDs and music. I always thought it was unfair to expect a little one to be strapped down with no stimulation that they enjoyed and expected not to fuss. So at this point it's almost unheard of for DS to resist the carseat. But it did happen once just the other day. He was very tired, hungry, and my mother was there yapping at him to calm down. He melted down whe I put him in. So I took him back out (had to push my mother out of the way because she was trying to restrain me : ) and walked him around until he was calm. He was happy to get beck in within 3 minutes.

I don't know. It doesn't seem that hard to me at all. Way easier than trying to break a child's will. I will say that it's hard to deal with unsupportive friends and relatives, but that's not the same thing.

Sorry for the ramble... Been interrupted lots!

[sweetest]

Originally Posted by yoopervegan

For us, it is never the "Classic" stuff like shots or meds or carseats. Dd had blood drawn today at the WIC office. I started to explain to dd what was going to happen (I did not know beforehand) and the nurse said that I should not tell ehr, just do it. Um, no. I explained that we needed the blood to see how healthy her blood was and that it was going to hurt a little. I showed her the stuff, explained the procedure, showed her the bandaid she would wear afterwards then asked if it was OK to do. She said yes. If she had said no, I would have told the nurse no. The whole explanation took 60 seconds.....much shorter than I remember my doc taking to pull me out from under the examination table to get a shot forced on me as a child. If she had siad no to the draw, I could have rescheduled the blood draw and spent the time to get some books from the library or a video to show dd what was going to happen. We could practice on her baby or bear. We could talk to other kids that had it done. We could pick out a special bandaid. As long as I am honest all of the time, dd trusts that I am only suggesting things in her best interest. We have done docs, xrays, meds, etc with no problem at all.

This is such a fantastic example of why I love the MDC mamas

This approach takes more time, patience and energy but the end result is having such trust from your child is so worth the investment.

I was thinking about this issue last night (related to what I wrote on another thread). I think that there might be a time when I just had to make dd do something - for instance if there were a medical emergency and it was life saving measures.

As APmom said - we do have saftey "rules" in our house - and dd says "thats a rule" and respects it. For instance, we dont play on the stairs, and we do not pick up the chihuahua by the neck. But there is always an age appropriate explanation involved when dd is told not to do something.


I think this Hathor comic is on point:
Y knot

[4evermom]

Originally Posted by maya44

While I respect your position I think it that you fail to really understand that some of us believe that it is our role as a parent to make decisions for our childen that are non-negotiable because they simply do not have the life experience/judgment/impulse control to be able to make these decisions for themselves. And that it our duty to do so.

I agree with this even though there is only one thing on that list that is non-negotiable for me (toothbrushing- and I'd probably let that go if ds didn't have 10 cavities). When ds was an infant, like all mothers, I made most decisions for him. The issue is partially what age do you turn the decision making over to dc. As mine has grown, I've slowly turned over much of it to him as I felt he was able to handle it. I used to make him hold my hand in a parking lot. Now, I trust he will stay near me. He was very distressed at preschool so I withdrew him and am planning on homeschooling for the time being. He is welcome to play with fire with the condition that a grown up is with him.

[irinam]

I was thinking long and hard trying to find non-negotiable things in our family, but failed to find them.

Maybe safety *would* be non-negotiable, but both of my kids enforce it more than I do sometimes, LOL When DS was small, he would tell me “Mom, the sign says 35mph and you are going 40! Slow down!” DD would literally scream if I even started the car before she was fully buckled up. *She* insists on holding my hand when crossing the road. *She* asks for a “safe” knife when we cook.

I did/do spend significant time explaining the reason we have to mind safety and I guess it sticks. It never had to be a “mommy’s rule”, it is just something that all of us do.

I am sure I did not experience all of the possible “if’s” and “when’s”, just relaying our experience.

PS. Some negotiations do take a long time though! I am learning patience that I did not know I was capable of and I admit I loose it now and then

[loraxc]

But I'm not sure that I'm entirely clear about what you object to and wish to discuss, Pat.

Me, neither.

I think it's fairly obvious that outside of "No, you may not lie down in the street in front of the bulldozer", people are going to draw the line in different places. I don't know if there is a point to *debating* that line.

I do not personally accept the idea that everyone can always "negotiate" everything to everyone's satisfaction. I don't think it's a bad thing to try for, aim for, or consider, but I think it is, frankly, an enormous thing to ask of a parent, especially parents with multiple children, high-needs children, special needs children, their own emotional issues (such as being an abuse survivor), economic constraints, partner problems, family issues...that's starting to sound like just about everyone, isn't it? Such is my point.

[The4OfUs]

I don't think we'd ever agree on what's "non negotiable", outside of the running in the street thing, either.

I also agree that what separates us is what happens when those of us who do not insist on mutual solutions get down to it. Those who would simply force with no consideration of alternatives, no explanation, no sympathy, and perhaps a snide remark or whatever are different from those who would try to come up with alternatives, but then explain and symapthize and make the best of the situation, who are different from those who wouild do whatever possible to come up with something that worked for everyone.

I would guess that most of us just have different 'breaking points', and different ways to handle the situations as they arise. I don't have a formula, like: "well, if after 5 minutes, and 3 suggestions he doesn't do x, I'm going to do it for him" - I gauge each situation and see what the outcomes and possible solutions might be, and then act from there. And YES, in my family, as the parent I do take more of the responsibility on judging situations, because, well, he's 2. He just cannot understand the long term ramifications of some situations, or see the big picture as opposed to the "right now"....that's why he was born tiny and dependent on me for everything, and will GROW into a fully independent human...how many 2 year olds could live on their own without a guardian?

This morning, after DS's appointment, we headed out of the hospital (him walking on his own near me, me pushing his little collapsible stroller) and I told him that when we got outside he either needed to hold onto the stroller, hold my hand, or I would carry him. It was raining pretty heavily, that nice, cold rain we get in upstate NY : . Well, he didn't want to hold onto the stroller....and he kept pulling his hand away from mine when I tried to reach for it...the whole time I'm talking to him about being safe near moving cars. So, I told him that since he didn't want to hold the stroller or my hand, I would carry him, because it wasn't safe for him to cross the street and walk in the parking lot by himself. He's 2 - he just doesn't have the judgement to walk in moving traffic. So, I picked him up - and he kind of whimpered for a minute as we were walking along. I asked him if he wanted to try walking holding my hand or the stroller, he nodded, so I put him down. He still wouldn't hold either my hand or the stroller, so I picked him up again and carried him the rest of the way. I sympathized with him that he wanted to walk, but reminded him that it just wasn't safe for him to walk on his own. So, yes - I physically forced him by picking him up, and invaded his body integrity, I suppose. However, the option of standing there chasing him around in the cold rain with the stroller, when I had a conference call scheduled for work in an hour, it just wasn't going to happen. Even in nice weather....there just wasn't any place for him to go. Right outside the hospital is the valet parking circle, then the road, then the parking lot...and it's not aprticularly saf eor considerate either for him to run the halls of the hospital. WHen we got home, he zipped around on the porch for a few minutes, to work his legs out - which is fine. But me telling him he could run at home, while we were at the hospital still, didn't mean a lick to him at that moment. So, I decided on a course of action, and got us home.

So, let's see. I gave him a couple choices, and a couple chances to be safe in the situation we were in, and it didn't happen. I wasn't mad or upset at all, he's only 2 and just cannot grasp the situation. However, that doesn't mean to me that I need to find a way for him to walk around, when it's something that would have required quite a bit of flanagling and not been agreeable to me at all.

I suppose in matters of road safety, and personal hygiene (changing dirty diapers), I will do a certain amount of negotiating to make the situation more appealing to him (changing standin gup, in the tub, watching a video, whatever) but in the end, the diaper is goign to get changed, and he's not going to walk in moving traffic on his own. Personally, I cannot see at all that me "forcing" my son to have a dirty diaper changed to avoid him getting a huge rash ( or carrying him across a street and through a busy parking lot)would somehow translate into him acquiescing to someone trying to sexually violate him in later years.

My parents were gentle but definitely "in charge", and I'm sure sometiems they would pick me up to carry me, or put me in my carseat if I didnt' want to, or make me get my diaper changed...but I in NO way as a result of that felt like it was OK for anyone to do anything to me sexually that I didnt want them to. In fact, I can think of 2 situations when I was a young teenager that boys tried to get me to do more than I wanted to, and I literally walked away (one time calling my dad to come get me) and that was the end of that relationship. My parents instilled me with the knowledge that I was valuable and worthy, and THAT is what stuck with me, not the occasional coercion as a small child to do a function of daily living.

Sooooo...I just can't equate "forcing" my child to change his diaper, or get into a car seat without waiting somewhere for X amount of time, or whatever to having them not be able to distinguish a bad sexual touch from their mom cleaning their diaper or getting them into their car seat. It just doesn't register for me.

Having said all that, I will also say that if the diaper change or car seat scenarios (which seem to be very common ones here) were constantly met with resistance and fear, screaming, etc., like EVERY time, then I would definitely look to see what the underlying cause was. BUT - for the occasional time when DS just doesn't want me to change a poop that he made 15 minutes ago because he doesnt' want to stand still for 2 minutes, even if I play a video for him, even if I give him a piece of cheese, I just can't equate it to him becoming a person who would let anyone do anything to him without standing up for himself.

I just think that's a big, big leap to make, and doesn't give enough credit to our kids instinct to learn, be taught, and know good intentions from bad.

I do try to accomodate my son as much as I possibly can - we've gone out in some truly interesting getups, and with him bringing along some interesting 'toys' - gone bottomless many times at home - had a cupcake before dinner - carefully explore a stapler he found - so I'm not compeltely inflexible - just sometimes his "wants" do not outweigh my "needs". I guess that's what it comes down to for me.

[MissRubyandKen]

Well besides life threatening I'd say if someone is being forceful to my dc or my dc is being forceful to someone else I will intervene. But intervening doesn't need to equate to my being physically forceful.
At one point I thought I had to brush my ds' teeth even when he didn't want to. I did it anyway. So from then on he refused often. I tried a ton of different ways to make it fun. Sometimes he agreed, sometimes he refused. When he refused I did it anyway. I TOOK HIS POWER FROM HIM- HE STRUGGLED FOR IT BACK. If I had had half a brain I would have waited 15 minutes that FIRST time and asked again, instead of doing it anyway. There most likely was an alternative. I see this clearly now in retrospect.
As soon as I LET GO (under the guidance of my dearest friend) and talked to him about it and gave him the power back the struggle ceased to be. He knew why I expected his teeth brushed we talked about it sveral times. He came to understand how important it was to me. He also understood I would not force him anymore. This did not lead to his teeth not being brushed. I needed to TRUST that he wanted to do the acceptable thing. His teeth get brushed 2-3 times a day now and he almost always wants my help. I deeply regret forcing my will on him.
In a hazardous situation you bet I'll intervene. In a safety situation you bet I'll intervene. For instance at the store the other day ds4 was walking with the rest of us. He does follow impulses quite a bit still, so my eye is almost constantly on him. CHALLENGING . I turned for 2 seconds, then back and he was running off. I said 'Kendall' quite loudly. He turned and stopped. I quickly got to him and bent down. I explained to him AGAIN why I needed him to stay with me. He told me he wanted to look at the fish. I told him that was okay and I needed him to tell me if he wanted to see something so we could go together. And we did. I intervened but I did not need to be forceful.
Yesterday when I was suggesting something to my dd6 she told her dad, 'Dad you know why I listen to mommy's suggestions? Because I don't want to get hurt or be uncomfortable.'
I definitely believe that what our dc live with on a DAILY basis is much more imoprtant than a moment here and there.

[maya44]

I also wanted to say that one other BIG area I consider non-negotiable are things that will effect someone else. An example from the past was if I needed to pick up DD 1 at pre-school in 10 minutes and DD 2 did not want to get in the car, I would defintiley "force" (gently) her into the car and into her car seat. I couldn't leave DD1 at pre-school while I take the time to negotiate with DD2. It would not have been fair to DD1 or to her teachers who were under strict time guidelines on many days. So that is a time I would have used gentle physical force because something was (for me) truly non-negotiable.

[earthmama369]

I'm not sure I have the concept of non-negotiable down as intended by the OP, but as the PP mentioned, the one other situation that comes to mind (aside from safety) is how my child's behavior might affect someone else. Specifically, I was thinking about how she's recently gotten interested in the effects of waving objects around and hitting them on other things. Hairbrush meets coffee table -- fine. Big bang, lots of giggles, a few dents that don't matter much. Hairbrush meets cat -- not negotiable. That's not ok because it hurts the cat. A secondary issue is that the cat might hurt her back (kitty communication), but the core message I want her to learn is that it's not ok to hurt someone/something else, even when you're not trying to hurt them, you're just having fun. So the hairbrush gets taken out of her hand.

When she has a toy like that and I see her heading for one of the cats, I give her a verbal heads-up so she remembers not to hit them. (Be gentle with the kitty. Pet with an open hand, gentle touch, put the brush down first, etc.) I will try to redirect her attention and get physically close enough to the situation to intervene with a stronger redirect before she has a chance to hit the cat. I'll sometimes try to move the cat to safer ground. (Although wouldn't that be forcing the cat to do something, then, rather than the child?) But once she hits the cat, I do physically remove the tool in question, then explain again why that's not ok, what is ok, show her how to pet the cat, and so on. I don't know if that's a good example of a universal non-negotiable issue -- it just seems like an age-appropriate response to her natural curiosity and energy combined with what I feel is an appropriate non-negotiable issue. What would you do differently in that situation to avoid physically taking a tool/toy away from a child?

[MissRubyandKen]

I also wanted to say that one other BIG area I consider non-negotiable are things that will effect someone else. An example from the past was if I needed to pick up DD 1 at pre-school in 10 minutes and DD 2 did not want to get in the car, I would defintiley "force" (gently) her into the car and into her car seat. I couldn't leave DD1 at pre-school while I take the time to negotiate with DD2. It would not have been fair to DD1 or to her teachers who were under strict time guidelines on many days. So that is a time I would have used gentle physical force because something was (for me) truly non-negotiable.

Yes, leaving a child possibly scared and waiting would not be an option for me. Is it okay if I throw out a couple ideas? If not you can of course just ignore me . It's quite possible you already do these things.

Have a snack packed and ready to go with, or stock the car with special treats, leave ten minutes earlier so as not to be rushed, have a few books or toys in the car to hand to her, possibly a magnadoodle, those are fun. Encourage her to pick up a piece of nature on the way to the car to hold for the ride. Bring along her favorite tape or cd if you have a player in the car. Maybe one of those things would persuade her to get in her seat without physically forcing her?

[maya44]

Originally Posted by MissRubyandKen

Yes, leaving a child possibly scared and waiting would not be an option for me. Is it okay if I throw out a couple ideas? If not you can of course just ignore me . It's quite possible you already do these things.

Have a snack packed and ready to go with, or stock the car with special treats, leave ten minutes earlier so as not to be rushed, have a few books or toys in the car to hand to her, possibly a magnadoodle, those are fun. Encourage her to pick up a piece of nature on the way to the car to hold for the ride. Bring along her favorite tape or cd if you have a player in the car. Maybe one of those things would persuade her to get in her seat without physically forcing her?

Well as i said it was an example from the past, DD2 is almost 11 so its not really an issue anymore!

But yes, I certainly tried to do what I could though our schedules were tight, there was no "10 minutes earlier". My point was just that for us with three under the age of four (which I had at one point) there were many times when things were not negotiable for one because of the needs of another.

[MissRubyandKen]

When she has a toy like that and I see her heading for one of the cats, I give her a verbal heads-up so she remembers not to hit them. (Be gentle with the kitty. Pet with an open hand, gentle touch, put the brush down first, etc.) I will try to redirect her attention and get physically close enough to the situation to intervene with a stronger redirect before she has a chance to hit the cat. I'll sometimes try to move the cat to safer ground. (Although wouldn't that be forcing the cat to do something, then, rather than the child?) But once she hits the cat, I do physically remove the tool in question, then explain again why that's not ok, what is ok, show her how to pet the cat, and so on. I don't know if that's a good example of a universal non-negotiable issue -- it just seems like an age-appropriate response to her natural curiosity and energy combined with what I feel is an appropriate non-negotiable issue. What would you do differently in that situation to avoid physically taking a tool/toy away from a child?

Hairbrush meets kitty is not acceptable to me either . My first question is does she protest when you take the brush away? If not what you're doing sounds okay to me. If she does- What if you redirect her back to what she can use the brush on after she hits? 'It hurts the cat to be hit with the brush. I need the cat to be safe. You can bang the brush on the couch or you can brush your hair with it.' Possibly demonstrating with your hand like you're holding a fake brush? Or I guess I might keep the brush out of reach for a couple of months too if that the only object dc hits with. I might also call attention to how the cat looks or what it does when hit. See how kitty runs away when hit, it hurts/ scares her so she wants to go away. See how kitty scrunches down when hit, she looks scared.