What all is Non-negotiable? - Page 8

[Nora'sMama]

The key concept that I see as essential to both "consensual" parenting and "authoritative" parenting (don't know if those are the best words but ykwim) is TRUST between parents and children.

[Yooper]

A question for the non-negotiables.....

What do you do if your child will not do the chore or will not get in the bath or will not get in the bed?

[Fuamami]

Originally Posted by yoopervegan

A question for the non-negotiables.....

What do you do if your child will not do the chore or will not get in the bath or will not get in the bed?

First, thanks for your response to my question. Again, it's interesting how similar we are in the day-to-day parenting. I've done all this, except for the running things over with a car part. I think that would scare her to death, as she's already very cautious about it. The few times, she's been really, really distracted and excited by something, and just not realized where she was.

So, in response to your question.

If my dd doesn't want to do the chore, which at this age is really only picking up her toys and books, I try playful parenting, breaking it down, asking again, a few other things. If they don't work, I just do it. I actually don't do all of those things. I try not to be a naggin' Nancy. But sometimes I tell her the importance of helping out and that if we all work together it keeps our house clean, blah, blah, blah. Mostly she does it.

If she doesn't want to take a bath, I say "Yippeee!" She ALWAYS wants to take a 1 hour long bubble bath with LOTS of water, and I think it's wasteful, not to mention expensive. So for us, I guess the question would be, what if she wants to do that but can't? I say, "I'm sorry, we don't have time tonight for a long bath. Do you want to skip? Or do you want to have a quickie bath with a little bit of water? Or do you want to take a shower with me in the morning?" Occasionally she says, "I don't want any of those choices." To which I might respond, "Well, what do you think we should do?" or, depending on the situation, "I'm sorry you don't like them, but those are the only choices there are."

Every night, as my dd finishes reading books with my dh, nearly nodding off, she says, "I don't want to go to bed." I pick her up gently, she lays her tired head on my shoulder, and I say, "I know, but we have to let our bodies rest so we can have another fun day tomorrow. We had lots of fun today," and then I talk about a highlight of our day. Usually that's all she needs, sometimes she repeats that she doesn't want to go to bed, so I try to talk to her about the fun thing she can do tomorrow after she's rested. I don't offer choices about bedtime. Bedtime is a hot button issue for me, I've lost my temper with her for waking up her brother more than I'd like to admit, and this mellow, in control approach is working really well. It's not ideal, I'd like to do things differently, but it's the most harmonious approach we've come up with so far.

[loraxc]

I was just trying to answer the questions that you claimed were going unaddressed. I answered with how I would or have handled them. That is all. I speculated on why I thought it went better than expected. If we had to resort to more coersive methods because it was an emergency, I certainly would not think I failed as a parent. I would feel bad for dd feeling violated, but if there was no other way, then I would have to accept that.

Thank you--this clarifies a little and helps. I do appreciate your answering my questions, and I did not say that before.

What do you do if your child will not do the chore or will not get in the bath or will not get in the bed?

I take it you mean that they will not do these things and that we have tried every technique we can think of, right? This is an interesting question that I can't answer quite yet, since I only have one kid and she is only two. If she will not help me pick up toys, I usually ask one more time, explain why I want it done, and then, if she still doesn't do it, I do it for her. The times when she DOES pick up toys, which these days is every time (yay!) I tell her how much that helps me and thank her.

If she did not do a chore as an older kid...hmm. I don't think I've decided yet. Right now we are no-punishment, but with an older kid I'm not sure my current method (ask, remind, then do it for her) is appropriate. I will have to think about that one when we get there, I guess.

She has never not wanted to take a bath. I guess she likes baths! I have occasionally forced the issue a bit--mildly, really mildly--with wiping off really dirty face or hands, especially with regard to clean hands before eating.

She also does not protest going to bed. Occasionally she will ask for one more story, which we at this point will do, because it has never gotten to be a problem. This is one that might verge on the occasional nonnegotiable with me, though, at least in terms of "It is bedtime and you need to stay in your room and stay quiet with the lights off." (No rule against us staying with her, but I can imagine requiring that she attempt to sleep and not play or run around, for instance.) Bed and sleep are pretty big ones for me, as I know that DD is a kid who really melts without enough sleep. Fortunately, we are not having issues with that these days.

[maya44]

Originally Posted by yoopervegan

A question for the non-negotiables.....

What do you do if your child will not do the chore or will not get in the bath or will not get in the bed?

1. Won't do the chore.
State that it needs to be done and that it is their job
If it does not happen and I want it done I do it for them THEN (and this was after age 4 or so:
"I had to pick up your toys. That is your job and you did not do it. Next time I expect you to do it."

2. Will not get in the bath or won't get into bed
State again that they need to get in bed or take a bath. THEN do "active waiting" where you just kind of stand there calmly but sort of like you are waiting for a bus to come.


I have found these all I ever needed to do. And like many here I get cooperation 95 precent of the time.

[johub]

Originally Posted by yoopervegan

A question for the non-negotiables.....

What do you do if your child will not do the chore or will not get in the bath or will not get in the bed?

For my 2 and 3 year olds chores are simple and I do them with them as a group activity so it really isnt an issue. If crayons are on the floor I tell them it is time for us to pick up the crayons and if they are reluctant Igive a more specific instruction such as "will you please give me that green crayon?" or "I will get the crayons under the table, can you get the ones under the chair."
But it is their responsibility to participate and while they are almost always happy to help (if I am doing it too) they will occasionally refuse and then I redirect them back to the job until it is engaged in.
As for my dd1, well, she is 13 and there are some issues. RIght now I am "choosing my battles" an awful lot. BUt in theory, if the chore isnt done, she doesnt get to do the next leisure thing she has planned. The problem is her day is full of non leisure things like school and rehearsal and sleep and dinner which I am not going to withhold until she does her work. So it sits sometimes till she has soemthing she wants to do.

If they will not get in the bath/shower, I place them in the bath/shower. If they will not get in bed I place them in their beds.
eta. Keep in mind that this is for the 2 and 3 year olds, not the 13 year old

[dharmamama]

Originally Posted by yoopervegan

A question for the non-negotiables.....

What do you do if your child will not do the chore or will not get in the bath or will not get in the bed?

1) Chore

I tell my kids that we won't be moving on to Y until X has been completed. For example, the kids want to do Starfall (their latest obsession) but their dinosaurs are lying neglected all over the floor: "After you put away your dinosaurs, we can do Starfall." Efram: "Starfall! Starfall! Starfall!" Ramona: "But I'm too tiiiiiiiiiiiiiired/cooooooold/threeeeeeee years old to put them away!" Me: "Ok. I'll be unloading the dishwasher. Let me know when you have put them away and then we can do Starfall."

2) Bath

I never make my kids bathe if they don't want to. It's just not important enough to me. If they have just fallen into a mud puddle I will at least wipe off their faces and hands but actually that has never happened.

3) Bed

My kids don't have to be in bed at bedtime. They do have to be in their room, and I just tell them, "You don't have to go to sleep if you don't want to, you can play in your room if you want." Somehow my kids just know that they have to stay in their room. They have tested us, of course, and we have just taken them back to their rooms or given them a snack to take with them.

Namaste!

[Rainbow Brite]

Yooper, I LOVE your posts. They are inspiring. I will need you, scuba and cc over here to teach me more

[captain crunchy]

They do have to be in their room, and I just tell them, "You don't have to go to sleep if you don't want to, you can play in your room if you want."

Can someone explain that to me? I never understood that line of thinking. I am not trying to be snarky -- I just don't get that ... if your children can stay up as late as they want playing or whatever, why are they isolated in their rooms instead of being able to be with the rest of the family if they choose?

I am not picking on you, I have seen this in a lot of different posts and discussions and I am wondering what the reasoning is behind it?

[Yooper]

Thanks for answering my question

I was truly curious and it is interesting to see the different approaches. I think I have a "spirited" child. Well, I know I do which is what lead me to where I am. She would seriously freak to be put in her room. She does not (will not) sleep by herself and definitely also will not be in a room by herself unless she is getting into something really fun like my moisterizer this morning

[dharmamama]

I have my kids stay in their rooms at bedtime for several reasons:

1) While Efram can just get into bed and go to sleep, Ramona can't. She (just like me) needs wind-down time, and being downstairs with us is not wind-down time for her. She needs wind-down time alone. Normally Ramona falls asleep between 8:15 and 8:45, which indicates to me that this is when she is tired. However, if we let her stay downstairs with us, she will stay up until we go to bed at 10:30 or 11. She still gets up at the same time (around 7) even if she's stayed up late, so then she is tired and crabby the next day. The whole "but if she stays up late a few times and is tired the next day, she will learn what the consequence of staying up late is" thing has never worked for her. And I am unwilling to suffer through her crabiness because she didn't get enough sleep. Plus, I see it as my parental duty to ensure she gets the amount of sleep she needs.

2) I need break. Whether people think it's ok or horrible that I need a break, the fact is that I need a break.

3) IF the kids even get out of bed and play (which usually only happens about 1/4 of the time), they do so for about 20 or so minutes and then they conk out. It's not like they are isolated for hours and hours in their rooms. On the several occasions that Ramona has really had trouble falling asleep, we have brought her downstairs to be with us.

So, that's why we do that. I hope that my explanation is just that, an explanation, and not an invitation to debate why I shouldn't enforce a bedtime for my kids.

Namaste!

[DevaMajka]

Originally Posted by maya44

I could not agree more!

I think that can be down sides to any type of parenting for any particular child. One of my SIL's lives "consesnually" I am not saying this would happen for every child, but for her dd, it was not a healthy way to live.

Being provided with information and decision making strategies did not work for her at a young age. When her anxiety became so great that they had to seek out help, they were finally told "She may think that she likes making all these decisions, but it is making her nervous, depressed and anxious. You as the parents need to make some of these decisions."

My niece definitely percieved herself as being unhappier in the short run with these limitations, but within a month her anxiety and depression began to lift. She was indeed happier. But as a seven year old she could not precieve or rationalize that this was why. She did not "consent" to this, but my bil was adament that they keep doing things this way (and it was done very gently).

Now my point here is NOT that most or even many children will be anxious and depressed with consensual living. My point is only as Sledg said that there is no one universal "right" way that will truly make everyone happy.

There are some universal 'wrong' ways. No one will ever be happiest being hit or shamed. But getting it right takes many paths.

I find this interesting. I do agree with the idea that "too many choices" can feel like too much responsibility for a child. And that if that happens, they may push for the adult to assert some control. I can see how a child with too much control than they are ready for, would make them feel not-quite-right. And possibly make them feel very wrong.
But I'm not sure exactly how it plays into a child making choices, that they want to make. How much is too much? It seems to me that if a child shows interest in a certain choice, then they would be ready to make that choice. I don't know.
Perhaps it has to do with not giving choices until a child asks for (or indicates in some way that they want) the choice? Perhaps it has to do with the parent's expectations, as far as expecting the child to follow along, unless there is dissent from the child?
I don't know. But this is something that I've been thinking about. hmmm...

[Yooper]

Sleep is our one ongoing "issue" that seems to be difficult for dd to resolve. She has not yet "learned" that staying up late makes her tired. She just really likes to stay up. It is exhausting for us and I seem to be out of ideas on how to help her regulate better. However, I have severe insomnia problems and have since I was very little so I suspect she inherited them. I hear you on gettign a break! I truly wish there was a way I could get that nightly. Luckily dh and I have a pretty good tag-team approach of helping each other get alone time so it works out. It was the sleep issue that got us into consensual living. The battles were getting very much out of hand and I suspect that that is part of the reason dd has sleep issues. It makes me very sad

[Yooper]

Originally Posted by Deva33mommy

I find this interesting. I do agree with the idea that "too many choices" can feel like too much responsibility for a child. And that if that happens, they may push for the adult to assert some control. I can see how a child with too much control than they are ready for, would make them feel not-quite-right. And possibly make them feel very wrong.
But I'm not sure exactly how it plays into a child making choices, that they want to make. How much is too much? It seems to me that if a child shows interest in a certain choice, then they would be ready to make that choice. I don't know.
Perhaps it has to do with not giving choices until a child asks for (or indicates in some way that they want) the choice? Perhaps it has to do with the parent's expectations, as far as expecting the child to follow along, unless there is dissent from the child?
I don't know. But this is something that I've been thinking about. hmmm...

Yeah, that perplexes me too. It does not sound like a "mutually agreeable" situation. I can totally see a kid having trouble with too many choices. It is hard for me as an adult sometimes. we went to a vegan restaurant in California once and I nearly had a panic attack because there were just too many choices. Luckily I have other people in my life that can help me make choices and I do the same for dd when she needs it. We don't get up in the morning and say to dd "so what are we going to do/eat/play/etc....?" We have a basic routine, normal things we eat, certain toys that dd likes to play with each morning..... It is only when dd says she is not happy to do/eat/play/go somewhere that we reevaluate. She is not in the "driver's seat" any more than dh or I am. I mean even getting dressed, 99% of the time she could care less what she wears so I do not ask her. I pick something out and help her put it on. If she cares that day, then she is free to pick out her clothing. But it is not like the whole day is endless choices (unless dd wants it to be).

[captain crunchy]

I wasn't inviting a debate on enforcing bedtime. I was just curious is all, even if I may not agree -- thanks for explaining it though.

As far as choices, I think that can be a slippery slope. If someone should have a child who is *anxious* with making choices, I don't see anything wrong with providing a fewer list of choices (for example) "Would you like pancakes or oatmeal for breakfast" -- provided those are choices that your child likes, and provided that you are open if they choose something different. I guess my issue would be if a person knew their child had issues with being provided many choices but used that as a jumping board to make all their choices for them.

I agree with yooper -- most families have basic routines they stick too, even loosely... so it isn't as if people are waking up asking their children "Okay, let's lay out your entire day and every choice in it"... I can see where that would be overwhelming for anyone. Even for me, there are basic things I do pretty much every day -- get up, stretch, eat, check my email, play with my daughter, etc....so while I am making choices all day I suppose, they are easy because they are my basic routine. Same with our daughter... we wake up, I feed her, I change her, we play etc... she is still too young to make choices about clothes and such (she is only nearly 8 months old)... but she pretty much knows what to expect on a daily basis and is agreeable with it ---

As yooper said, it is when she is not agreeable that we evaluate. At her age, I don't sit in front of her and say "I think you are wet, would a diaper change be agreeable?" I usually say "can mama lay you down to change your diaper" and most times she is happy to do it. The times when she protests, I stop what I am doing and let her go butt naked, or hand her a toy, or let her hold the diaper, or whatever.. and 99% of the time it is an agreeable situation for her. Actually, 100% of the time because I have never changed her when she has been crying, and she never has NOT let me change her within a relatively short period of time after I have stepped back for a few minutes... and she has never sat in filth all day either.

[captain crunchy]

...as far as sleep as it stands now, my daughter still needs me to rock her to sleep which I have no problem with. She sleeps when she is tired (most of the time )... I never enforce any bedtime and never have and she kind of fell into her own routine of sleep and waking. Most days she takes two naps, lasting anywhere from 45 minutes to 1-1/2 each... one at roughly 11-12 in the afternoon then one around 4 later in the afternoon.

While I don't enforce those naps or bedtime at all, I do recognize when she is getting tired --- rubbing eyes, whining a bit, yawning...zoning.... so I will create an environment that is conducive to sleep -- I will feed her, rock her, sing to her etc... and usually she falls asleep... sometimes she doesn't, then I put her down to play again or I play with her etc... then the routine again... and by the second time I rock etc.. she falls asleep...

At night she is pretty consistent too which I am thankful for, but she doesn't sleep through the night yet and that is okay too (though we have our good nights!)...

I never would or will say "this is your bedtime" or naptime or whatever to a child, that is just me. I think most children can regulate pretty well when they are sleepy and when they aren't -- some learn later than others, like walking or anything.

Having basic routines does help though. We never have had a *schedule* but I suppose we are creatures of habit to a degree (me and dh) so we have had basic *routines* since she has been born.

[MissRubyandKen]

It seems to me that if a child shows interest in a certain choice, then they would be ready to make that choice. I don't know.
Perhaps it has to do with not giving choices until a child asks for (or indicates in some way that they want) the choice? Perhaps it has to do with the parent's expectations, as far as expecting the child to follow along, unless there is dissent from the child?

We have a basic routine, normal things we eat, certain toys that dd likes to play with each morning..... It is only when dd says she is not happy to do/eat/play/go somewhere that we reevaluate. She is not in the "driver's seat" any more than dh or I am. I mean even getting dressed, 99% of the time she could care less what she wears so I do not ask her. I pick something out and help her put it on. If she cares that day, then she is free to pick out her clothing. But it is not like the whole day is endless choices (unless dd wants it to be).

I don't 'pummel' my children with endless choices. Certain things I know one dc cares about while the other doesn't usually. Dd likes to pick her own clothes 98% of the time. Ds maybe 10%. So with dd I ask her if she wants to pick her clothes and pick ds' myself. If he says he doesn't want it then I ask him what he does want. Opposite thing with drinking cups, plates, and spoons! Ds is quite particular about cups and silverware, but with him I know which silverware is the only kind he'll use and his fav plates so I will ask about the cup, which varies. Dd I will just get that stuff ready for her unless she indicates she wants something different. Bath time for us is any time one of us wants one , besides bedtime of course. I explained that this was a safety issue because if I am tired and need sleep it is not safe for them to be in the bath. They understood, so not a problem here. I don't recall witnessing them being anxious or nervous about those choices they have wanted to make.
When they want to make a chioce I feel I can't consent to is when more discussion, negotiation, explaining reasons and giving information about my(and societal) expectations, researching alternatives, re-evaluating my thoughts and feelings on the issue at hand, etc. MIGHT come into play, depending on the issue. Like when dd indicated she didn't want to do schooling , and when ds was hitting me. The schooling truly that didn't take long to resolve, the hitting was challenging and took a bit more time.

[boomingranny]

I read the whole thread. I would only say that sledg is right on about much. I also think that this ideology of parenting will morph as the children grow older. A lot of how I parent changes with where my dd is in her evolution and also how I am evolving. The non-consensual stance of Scubamom seems a little inflexible as it doesn't account for differences of personality and the natural flow of growing and changing. Sometimes "forcing" (or as I see it, gentle persuasion) is appropriate and sometimes not. Once you view the world as black and white, the more difficult it is to be happy with all the grey.

Also, I think it would be interesting to revisit this when the children are older, say 5 and 13.

Cheers

[Yooper]

Originally Posted by boomingranny

I read the whole thread. I would only say that sledg is right on about much. I also think that this ideology of parenting will morph as the children grow older. A lot of how I parent changes with where my dd is in her evolution and also how I am evolving. The non-consensual stance of Scubamom seems a little inflexible as it doesn't account for differences of personality and the natural flow of growing and changing. Sometimes "forcing" (or as I see it, gentle persuasion) is appropriate and sometimes not. Once you view the world as black and white, the more difficult it is to be happy with all the grey.

Also, I think it would be interesting to revisit this when the children are older, say 5 and 13.

Cheers

I do not see consensual living as black or white at all. Nor do I see it as inflexible.

[boomingranny]

perhaps

although other subscribers to the defined parenting ideology of "consensual living" seem to my small mind not able to see shades of grey that occur in the complex dynamics of parent and child. It's a nice philosophy for most situations but I don't beleive that 100% of the time I will always be able to honor my child's occasional unwillingness to contribute to our household and other matters of importance.