help - I need a young priest and an old priest

[tealee]

My dd#1 is almost 5 years old. She frequently gets REALLY frustrated and can't let it go, often freaking out for an hour at a time or more. She will often get destructive and physically hurt others. When she is not frustrated, she is so sweet and very intelligent.

She knows the three principle of our family(we don't hurt ourselves, others, our stuff). After an episode, we talk about what happened and what could happen differently next time.I've been going through the book "Easy to Love, Difficult to Disciple" and this has helped me alot with my own anger issues, but hers seems to be getting worse and worse. I do disciple her (I have the list from Mothering Magazine taped to my bathroom wall). I also will add that I had postpartum depression and was quite suicidal ater each of my babies births so she was a witness to three bouts of poor role modeling. I am trying really hard to not be a yeller.

Tonight the inlaws babysat. Shortly after they left she began freaking out. She hit a sibling and grandma and yelled at Grandpa. She then stormed off to her room for the rest of the night.

I don't know what to do but everyone else seems to : . My inlaws quote from Dr. Phil how my granola crunchy ways are not working and I need to be spanking her or she will become a run away when she is 14. They also feel the breastfeeding she got as a baby and not crying it out at bedtimes as a toddler has contributed to her behaviour. They also think my 1and a half year old is going to have the same behaviour problems because she is still breastfeed and I don't let her cry it out. They and my DH really want to physically discipline her. My mom instinct tells me nooooooooo. I had to comprimise with time outs sitting in a chair - which I am not sure will solve anything but at least it looks to them like I am doing something and he would be willing not to spank.

Guys, I am just dying inside. I don't know how to help her through this. Thank you to anyone who reads this through. So many people on this board have real wisdom on child rearing and I would appreciate any suggestions.

[gaialice]

Originally Posted by tealee

I don't know what to do but everyone else seems to : . My inlaws quote from Dr. Phil how my granola crunchy ways are not working and I need to be spanking her or she will become a run away when she is 14.

I have a 5yo which resembles yours A LOT. I also did suffer PPD (although since I only have 2 she had to witness my totally ineffective parenting once). My family environment gives me the same advice as yours. I cannot count just how many times I have been told that my approach "does not work". I have even been told by my cousin's husband - he is a psy - that I will make her become drug addict and neurotic. I cried the whole evening after he said that!
We both really have to learn to be strong and try hard to feel compassion for our families when they say those things. They are trying to help. However, it does not help us. I remember a recent thread in which a mom gave her "please pass me the salt" advice. Whenever someone comments on her parenting she says "thank you for your advice. Can you pass me the salt please" in the sense of course of changing the subject of conversation as much as possible. Try your best not to invite criticism. Not easy I know because my dd hates being controlled with a passion and when she is around people who micro-manage her she goes ballistic.
As for your dd (an mine) I think we could exchange notes on what works and what does not. Recently things that work with her:
- keeping her content and very occupied (unload laundry, make a drawing for each family member, clean the kitchen table, keep a list of useful taks taped somewhere just for her)
- manage all transitions with a lot of care, else she becomes explosive
- ask her to devise plans for things that make her explosive (waking up in the morning may make my dd very irritable, unless this is done EXACTLY the way she wants. I have found I prefer spending 10 min waiting on her hands and feet at wake up rather than deal with a crazy 5 yo. In fact when I do her routing uninterrupted she is a huge help after. It is not easy to do her routine uninterrupted if you have younger sibs, but at times I have had to let dd2 protest a bit)
- no talking when she is mad. If she acts out, I try as hard as I can to remain zen and just plainly say "That is not acceptable" I remove her from the situation if necessary by force (Yes, I know this is the GD forum but I cannot let my 5 yo go on destroying the furniture b's she is on a bad mood!)
I hope other mamas have good advice for you... and me...

[SharonAnne]

First, the title of your post CRACKED ME UP! :

Second, feel free to inform your inlaws that Dr. Phil does NOT condone spanking in ANY way shape or form.

So, they can quote him till the cows come home, but if they're saying that he says to spank, they're misquoting. And if they're impressed by him for whatever reason, it might be worth it to go peruse his website and find some REAL quotes on disciplining children, just to shut them up.

I'm sorry, I don't have any advice on dealing with dd. Mine is only 7 months, so all my ideas are theoretical.

[tealee]

Thank you both Gaialice and ShanonAnne.

ShanonAnne - We don't watch TV and the few times I have watched Dr. Phil something about him rubbed me the wrong way. Going on his website is a very good idea. I guess like anything, the inlaws hear what they want to hear. Being able to "talk their language" may help to get them off my back and off my dd back too.

Gaialice - It is reassuring to hear from someone else going through this too. I am torn on deciding wether it is best to close dialogue with family on the subject or repeatedly let them get it off their chest and show them that I am doing things, just not their way. Before her behaviour went really down hill, she had really strong interests (pirates, star wars characters, fencing) but now lacks strong interests. I just have this feeling that if she was really absorbed in something that facinated her and give her a sense of mastry and achievement things would get better again. She does not respond well to me suggesting activities and does not want to be instructed by anyone (myself skating instructor, kids church teachers). I know what you mean about having to remove her from situations so she doesn't destroy the furniture. This week she had an episode at inlaws house and I had to hold her for a while so she didn't trash their house. Then the inlaws complain that I am cuddling her and giving her positive attention for being bad.

Does anyone know of anyone who was like this as a child and was raised with gentle discipline that didn't grow up to be a drug addicted runaway?

[Diane~Alena]

OMG I Love you title that is what i say when my daughter is acting up too! It must be our BC humor . You aren't alone I am dealing with the same thing and fighting the family the whole way too.

[J-Max]

Your little girl sounds a lot like my 7 year old. It got so bad last summer, we were at our whits end. We thought she might be bipolar. What we finially tried was the Feingold diet (www.feingold.org). It has helped SO MUCH! She is a different child now. We still have moments of frustration and out-of-control, but she is so much better.

You might want to check this out, HTH!

BTW, we went through this, and tried spanking. All it did it have her hit more.

[tealee]

Thanks for the support Diane-Alena. There is something so supportive in knowing we are not the only ones.

Jessmcg,I will research the feingold diet today. I know she is sensitive to sugar -both highs and lows- like me. Unfortunitly I would not get much support from dh as he feels I use diet as an excuse for bad behavior. Thanks for the suggestion and the link.

[Jish]

A couple friends and I were talking the other day. We each have three kids and our seconds are 5. We are all having issues with our five year olds and started thinking back to when our first children were five and realized that when our oldests were 5 they seemed to change personality, become more defiant and oppositional and basically became much more of a pain to live with. I don't know who came up with the "terrible two's" but I thought the twos were nothing, but the "fives" sucked!!! It seems to be pretty common behavior for five year olds, and if my first is any example, it does pass, but it isn't necessarily a quick phase.

[Piglet68]

I don't have any real practical advice for you, since my oldest is only 3.5. But it sounds as though what you are REALLY needing is support. Support for your gut instinct. Support that helps you feel confident in your decisions. I have found that three things REALLY help me get that support.

1) I hang out with my "local MDC tribe" of like-minded mamas. When we sit around talking about "discipline issues", I get wonderful advice that doesn't include punishments, timeouts, and other "behavioural modification" crap

2) I read. I read great GD books that inspire me. For pure inspiration I recommend Alfie Kohn's "Unconditional Parenting". It will validated EVERYTHING you are feeling about wanting to comfort her when she's having troubles, etc.

3) Read this forum alot. I find it so wonderful to hear how others deal with things, that they deal with the same things I do, and to hear so many great suggestions that go with my own philosophy.

Five seems old, but it is still so young. I can't help but feel that somewhere, a need is not being met for your DD. She needs something, some help processing things, something...I don't know what. But I know the answer is not to focus on her behaviour and use punishments, etc to stamp it out. You know it, too. The age of 3 was a hard transition for us, and through trial and error I realized that the worse my daughter acts, the more badly she needs me. Imagine how out-of-control and scary it must feel to your DD to lose control like that. In those moments, more than any other, she needs to know she is loved and valued, and that what she is feeling is okay. Then she needs skills to handle what she is feeling.

It must be so hard to have a DH who doesn't support you. Good luck to you.

[umami_mommy]

i guess i don't really know for sure, but it seems that your dd is being pretty age appropriate, esp having a parent with anger issues and a Hx of PPD. it doesn't seem weird to me that your dd gets really angry, acts out and then is okay. if she was like this all the time i might be worried, but she's not so really... what the heck is so wrong with being angry anyway?

i think people have their own issues with seeing cute little girls expressing really angry anger. i guess i wuld rather have a kid who expresses his/her anger than one who stuffs it and gets depressed or pukes or acts passive agressively. but that's just me.

[tealee]

Thank you all for guiding me through this soul searching time.

Honeybeedreams I think you have a really found the krux of the issue. What is wrong with being angry. 1 It is wrong for her to be hurting people. 2 It is wrong to be breaking things. But I think what bothers my dh and inlaws is to see an angry little girl. My husband has never seen his parents fight. Dh stuffs his anger almost always. I think this may be their issue, not dd. I will read your post to dh tomorrow - maybe it will offer him some insight.

Piglet68, thank you for the book recomendation. I have an amazon gift certificate to use. This seems like a most appropriate use. I find it really hard to come to the gentle discipline board because this is where I struggle the most as a mom but you do what you have to do.

Jish, I appreciate your insght. Dd is my first so I have little to gauge it by except dd's cousin. Inlaws never had a daughter so there you go. This may be a stupid question but is it normal for kids this age to hit? The more I think about this, the more I am thinking this is a gender issue. Dh physically fought with his brother (even stabbed him in the hand with a fork and if I remember the story correctly Mom in law laughed about it). When it is boys, is it just brushed off as "boys being boys"?

I got a chance to research the Feingold diet and I implimented it today. Today dd was very good but not sure wether that was diet related or dd knowing that the poop hit the fan.

[gaialice]

Originally Posted by tealee

Before her behaviour went really down hill, she had really strong interests (pirates, star wars characters, fencing) but now lacks strong interests. I just have this feeling that if she was really absorbed in something that facinated her and give her a sense of mastry and achievement things would get better again.

I really know what you mean. Up until she was say 2 yo dd1 was basically interested in just exploring the world. Starting from then, though, as other kids became interested in toys, which she herself does not really seem to care for, she became .... the holy terror. This long phase coincided with the birth of dd2, who had reflux and had to be held (and not slinged) 24/7. However when dd1 hit age 3,5 we had this miracle: she learned how to draw. She spends hours drawing, painting, making figurines of play doh... Things are not perfect now, far from it, but for us art is a lifesaver.
You mention your dd does not like instructions on what to do. An alternative to that is leaving cues that will set her off to start an interesting activity. Like we have a nice child table with all her art supplies. I try to keep that area tydy and inviting and I try to drop new little things there every day like: letters from which she likes to cut out stamps, a magazine to cut things from, a new glue stick, new sheets of paper, an old agenda ... How does she like art projects? Maybe you can see if you find a mom's helper (12-14 yo) who is willing to spend a little time just with her to do crafts? Maybe she will like that better than instructions from other adults?
I am not sure from your signature you have 3 or 4 kids? How do you do it? I should be getting advice from you, not the other way round!

[oliversmum2000]

i couldnt read and not respond - i am so sorry you have had such a hard time and when your confidence is further undermined by those around you it must be horrible.

maybe you could write to them and explain how you are doing your very best and that you have to parent in a way that feels right to you. tell them the best way that they can help is to support you and ask how they can help, ask what you need rarher than telling you what to do.

i dont habve much advice i am afraid other than i am finding my first born more difficult sinmce he turned 5 asseting his independence causes a lot fo friction betwen us, it is hard.

[saintmom]

Sorry it's been so tough for you .I was womdering if it would be possible to give dd a space where it's o.k. to be angry.Maybe with pillows and things?What about a place for her own self directed projects with easily accessable materials? I second looking into food allergies.I'd also think of a system for some kind of positive reinforce meant for good behaviour.I usually use a chart with tokens,so many and they get a video or a special story.( I have a huge collection of pop-up books)I only acknowledge the postive,negative stuff gets no response as far as the chart goes.Just some ideas,hope they help.

[tealee]

Thank you again for the support and ideas.

Update - dd's behavour was much better, far from perfect, but that is ok with me. Not sure if is could be the Feingold diet or her awareness that the poop hit the fan. She was not super unhappy about the food resrictions becuase Daddy bought her "special stuff". In laws are going away for a few days. During one of her episodes today I gave dd a crayon and paper and asked her to draw her anger. Se gave me a look, got up to her desk and started "scrapbooking" instead. It didn't take long for her to calm down.

She gave me a smile of the day, explaining Groundhogs Day to her younger brother: "On Robbie Burns Day, the woolly mammoth comes out of his cave and if he doesn't see his shadow it's summertime."

Maybe we will make it after all.

Gaialice, I have three kids dd (almost 5), ds (3), and dd#2 (1 and a half). With two kids, you are on all the time, so three is not much different.

[angela&avery]

first of all, I just want to say that Dr Phil does not promote spanking........ just wanted to say that, though he does promote forms of discipline and punishment (parent enforce, ie taking things away).

secondly, i wanted to suggest the book "how to talk so kids will listen and how to listen so kids will talk" and

"kids are worth it"by Barbara Coloroso, in this book she states that there are 3 ages that kids will kind of rebel.... age 2, 5 and puberty. Your dd is 5 and is going through a need to be who she is and establish who she is, and how she is different and see if she can do this and is accepted anyways. In this book she talks about how to deal with this and welcome it so that when dd hits puberty she knows "I can be me and be loved for who i am"

[tealee]

Thank you Angela&Avery for the two book suggestion and summery. I think these two books are at our library so I will order them today. I am really learning alot this week. Your post again got me thinking about short term discipline vs. long term discipline. I would much prefer discipline that can help dd develop into an emotionally strong woman instead of discipline that makes her easier to control now.

[Evan&Anna's_Mom]

There was a thead around here a while back that did have lots of adults raised with GD who turned out "successful". You may be able to turn it up with a search or maybe someone else will remember the title.

Seems to me that you may want to separate a couple of issues here. One is your daughter's behaviour and what is and isn't acceptable in your family. And how to make to get one and not the other from her!

The second is the pressure you are feeling from others to do something different. For your IL's, I second the "please pass the salt" response -- don't listen, don't encourage them to contribute their ideas, just be polite and distant and let if roll from one ear out the other.

For your DH though, you need to work with this more. You really need to be a team, or DD will soon figure out how to use you against each other. DH and I ended up going to parenting classes together so we could talk about "theory" without getting trapped into specifics and you said/she did/you didn't do... loops. It helped a lot when it came time to put theory into practice. We also ended up with timeouts as a compromise. I know they aren't popular on this board, but for those of us with diverse opinions to work with, its better than most of the alternatives!

Going back to your DD. Have you looked at the basics? Sometimes we get so wrapped up in finding solutions we forget the obvious. Does she get enough sleep? If she's in school, how is that going? Does she have temper problems there, or just at home? If she's doing well in school, how do they manage it? Are you consistant in your expectations, and does she get consistant messages from you and your DH?

When DS was 5, we definitely had some problems with temper, and we still do (he's 6 now), though it is much less than it was. We finally said that it was OK to be angry, but not OK to hurt people and not OK to yell or scream at others. ALL of us in the house live with these rules (though yelling to varying degrees of success). One of the things that you might want to point out to ILs and DH is the folly of spanking to correct a problem with hitting. I mean, really, how much sense is it to say (even non-verbally) "I'm hitting you as a punishment for hitting". ??? Our line now is "If you can't control your temper, you need to go to your room because no one wants to be the victim of hitting, throwing or screaming." Again, not necessarily a popular approach here, but a good compromise and workable solution for our family.

Good luck! And remember that nothing works overnight and everything takes time and consistancy.

[tealee]

Hi guys,
Just a little update...
We have good days and rough days and that is OK. We did not start spanking under pressure. Thank you all for offering me support to do right by my dd.

Also, my mil came over this morning and appologized! She said she and fil will not offer unsolicited child rearing advice to us again. I really was surprised.

Happy valentine's Day all.

[mama_mojo]

My DS is just now 6. We have cut wheat and dairy and see a drastic improvement, not in whether he gets angry, but in his ability to be furious without hurting anyone else. Also, his kind of "I can't hear you" impulse issues.

Another thing, I just read Ames and Ilg Your 6 Year Old and it was hilarious how closely DS is to the 6 year old described in the book. I am not keen on their discipline advice, but I do occassionally need to see "OH! He's NORMAL!"

Good luck!