I'm really having a hard time with the backtalk

[oceanbaby]

I've posted about this before, but I just can't seem to find a good way to deal with this. Some days I have success with just ignoring it, but other times it is just too much. The situations are varied, they don't just happen when it's tv, or when he's hungry, etc.

Today I lost my cool and I hate it when that happens. We had talked several times today about tv, and had settled on him watching some when we got home late this afternoon. So fine, we get home, he watches it. Then it's time to turn it off, and he starts yelling and screaming. We empathize, we explain, blah blah blah. He really wants to watch this one 15 minute show that's on at 7pm (it's 6:15 at the moment), and we explain that he can turn it on at 7 to watch that show, but we are turning it off until then. He turns it off, and then proceeds to yell at us, doing his whole "Get away from me! You're not my family! I don't like that!" screaming routine. I finally had had enough and told him that now he wasn't going to get to watch the show at 7pm. He melted down, and I felt terrible for throwing out a random punishment.

But I just can't get behind ignoring this kind of thing as a general strategy. I feel like it's telling him that he's welcome to just scream and rage at us anytime he feels like it. And ignoring it often doesn't work anyway, as he will just scream at me to answer him, and then continue with the back talk no matter what I say. I tell him I don't like him speaking to me that way, etc. etc., but it's all just met with with more rudeness.

And to add to the mix, ds2 is sitting there watching the whole thing, soaking it up, and often getting upset when ds1 starts yelling. So now I've got ds2 crying, and ds1 following me around the house screaming at me. Combined with lack of sleep it's practically impossible for me to maintain total coolness. So I need to come up with a consistent way of handling this, and ignoring it doesn't seem to be the answer.

[boongirl]

I have two ideas.

1. What about first establising guidelines for tv watching. He comes home, you tell him he can watch for x amount of time and then you help him watch the time and when it is over it is over.

2. Either way, it kind of sounds to me like he is getting negative reinforcement from these experiences. If you tried sort of ignoring him, firmly and kindly telling him that the time for tv watching is over and then leave it at that. He might get really upset at first but maybe, if he starts to see that it is not phasing you, he will start to change.

Because it sounds like right now you two have a feedback loop where you tell him what to do and he gets upset and then you get upset and it just keeps going. Maybe you could even talk about this with him and let him know ahead of time that you are going to turn the tv off at x oclock and that you are just going to leave it at that, that you love him and here are the reasons for turning it off. By talking about all of this ahead of time, he could explain what he wants and perhaps you could make some adjustments to what you want and vice versa.

This method would apply to any disagreement you are getting in, particularly the ones that keep repeating themselves.

Also, you might want to think of his talking as not "back talk" but as his desperate attempt to get across his viewpoint. He has a right to his point of view. Make some time to listen to him and establish some ground rules for how you two are going to deal with disagreements.

Another idea is to talk about it when you are both calmer. A bit of a time out for you both. Then, you both listen and talk and find a way to come together to make the decision.

The more you push kids to do what you want them to do when it is so clearly not what they want, the more they are going to push back. Mutual agreement comes out of mutual respect.

[boongirl]

I also wanted to add a quote from Peggy O'Mara, taken from the GD forum guidelines. It is very meaningful to me and I think it applies here.

Effective discipline is based on loving guidance. It is based on the belief that children are born innately good and that our role as parents is to nurture their spirits as they learn about limits and boundaries, rather than to curb their tendencies toward wrongdoing. Effective discipline presumes that children have reasons for their behavior and that cooperation can be engaged to solve shared problems.

[maya44]

Originally Posted by oceanbaby

He turns it off, and then proceeds to yell at us, doing his whole "Get away from me! You're not my family! I don't like that!" screaming routine. I finally had had enough and told him that now he wasn't going to get to watch the show at 7pm. He melted down, and I felt terrible for throwing out a random punishment.

But I just can't get behind ignoring this kind of thing as a general strategy. I feel like it's telling him that he's welcome to just scream and rage at us anytime he feels like it. And ignoring it often doesn't work anyway, as he will just scream at me to answer him, and then continue with the back talk no matter what I say. I tell him I don't like him speaking to me that way, etc. etc., but it's all just met with with more rudeness.

See I think that they are "welcome" to scream and rage at us. I mean, it surely is unpleasant and I don't like it, but on some level I do accpet that their total feelings of comfort and safety around us means that they can feel free to do this and know that it won't change our feelings about them one bit.

And what you are saying your son yelled: "Get away from me! You're not my family! I don't like that!" does not even seem particularly rude or offensive to me.

He is upset and is unhappy with you. "Get away from me" and "i don't like that" seem perfectly accpetable. and "YOu are not my family" is probably what he is wishing at that particular second (I wish i had a family that let me watch as much TV as I wanted). That he feels safe ennough to say this, just shows he is totally attached to you.

I do think that ignoring it can work. But you need to not be seething to yourself ('how can he be so rude and disrespectful'). Kids pick up on these feelings and it helps fan the flames.

If you truly feel that his rudeness is not that big a deal, it will lose ALOT of its power.

What I did is to offer hugs (almost always rejected in the middle of a tirade, but not always) and empathy and sympathy. And then I would MOVE ON.

I would try to busy myself with something and say something like "Wow I see you are really upset, if you want a hug or anything else, I will be in the next room folding the towels" [I must say that this was not a strategy I used before age 4 or so, because at the younger age I felt like they needed more of my presense, but I would do something to busy myself in the same room]

Often this would result in their following me and continuing to rage. I would not allow myself to worry at all about escalating rudeness, which I viewed somewhat as an attempt by them merely to deflect their feelings about the limit I had set. I would merely offer mutterings of sympathy and empathy while going to a zen place with the towel folding (or whatever). I would try to remain very, very calm.

MOST IMPORTANTLY I made it clear that their behavior was not going to change the limit set, but was not going to have any bad consequence either.

So I defintely would not punish. At the appointed time, I would simply turn the TV on again as per whatever agreement you had worked out.

I must say that in a case like this I did not even feel a need to bring up the rudeness later. To me it was just a normal acting out and I just did not let it bother me.

[RedWine]

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[angela&avery]

My ds is 4 also, sounds like they are the same age? For me, I have found just simply stating my expectations and not engaging otherwise works well..... he doesnt always listen, but it doesnt upset him. And just sympathizing with how he feels, for us its getting dressed in the morning for school. So I say, "I understand you are upset that its time to get ready to go, but we need to go soon, so Id like you to go pick out your clothes"... and a few minutes later "Avery, Its time for you to pick out clothes"..."Avery go pick out clothes, please" maybe three times, I remind him without anger, if it still doesnt happen we go to his bedroom and I say "Pick out underpants", "put htem on"..... "pick out your pants"...... but we rarely get to this point. One thing I read was to tell them specifics, not just "get dressed", remind them how to get dressed, yk?

As far as tv, i agree about having a set thing the same every day. For us, I let ds watch a movie every afternoon after school (he goes 3 days a week) bc he is tired and dd takes a rest at this time. He plays whiles its on, he is quiet, and it gives me time to unwind and rest myself. He knows this and before I put it on I explain "when this movie is over, thats it, no more tv". He does very well with this and will often turn it off on his own, and sometimes has a hard time and I just state " I explained to you that after this movie, I was turning the tv off"... and if he flips out I say " I understand it can be hard when you really want something and you cant have it" or "I can see that you are very upset, ", validating his feelings often diffuses the anger, and then I just walk out of the room to prevent engaging with him any further. If he continues I restate.... im not sure how to handle it further, as that doesnt happen with us, ds doesnt follow me around arguing.....

eta, i love the pp about busying yourself, i do this often in teh same room with annoyin behavior, like at snack (i have a hard tim with bad table manners) so i busy myself so that I dont engage in a power struggle, and the behavior usually goes away.

[sunnysideup]

But I just can't get behind ignoring this kind of thing as a general strategy. I feel like it's telling him that he's welcome to just scream and rage at us anytime he feels like it. And ignoring it often doesn't work anyway, as he will just scream at me to answer him, and then continue with the back talk no matter what I say. I tell him I don't like him speaking to me that way, etc. etc., but it's all just met with with more rudeness.

I agree that ignoring his emotional response is not a great idea. Try to show him that you understand by stating what you see "wow, you're really upset that you can't watch tv right now." I wouldn't make a big deal of the rudeness. He feels powerless in this situation, and has learned that those words have a lot of power.

[WuWei]

Ummm....I think dh would be very upset if I just came and turned the tv off at some set time. And I would be livid if I were told 'I told you I was going to turn the computer off at 10pm', and he did it. Or if I did this to ds, or ds did this to me. :

Not sure how this encourages a cooperative family atmosphere toward another's needs. Certainly it seems to encourage an adversarial relationship. I don't see how this is respectful; none-the-less, if I were angry and dh walked away starting to do something else all the while 'sympathizing and empathizing' with me: "I see that you are upset', but making it clear that my behavior was not going to change the limit set.

And no, I don't think him telling me beforehand would make it any more acceptable. But then, we discuss the issues surrounding shows and have no limts set about tv viewing. Same with computer use, mine, dh's or ds's. Maybe, the children really don't like living like that and aren't just 'venting'. Could the issue regarding tv shows be less arbitrary and more comprehensibly discussed and negotiated about both individual's concerns and needs?


Pat

[Peppermint]

Have you read "Playful Parenting"? If so, maybe try some of that?

Or- try planning something really fun for when the TV goes off?

If you see something coming ahead of time, heading it off at the pass might be the best course of action for now. "Hey honey, time to turn off the TV and do tickle-time!"

[maya44]

Originally Posted by scubamama

Ummm....I think dh would be very upset if I just came and turned the tv off at some set time. And I would be livid if I were told 'I told you I was going to turn the computer off at 10pm', and he did it. Or if I did this to ds, or ds did this to me. :

Not sure how this encourages a cooperative family atmosphere toward another's needs. Certainly it seems to encourage an adversarial relationship. I don't see how this is respectful; none-the-less, if I were angry and dh walked away starting to do something else all the while 'sympathizing and empathizing' with me: "I see that you are upset', but making it clear that my behavior was not going to change the limit set.

If DH and I had "settled upon" the TV going off at a certain time (like say dinner time, which could certainly happen) and when it was time he "started yelling and screaming" [which is EXACTLY WHAT THE OP SAID HAPPENED] I would indeed absent myself from the room and would not be offering hugs or "anything else he needed".

I would tell him that I would not stand for being talked to that way and that he had better shape up.

As is clear from my pp, I would treat my dc in a much more gentle manner (because I believe that children have less impulse control and less ability to reason things through)

And if my dh acted as above, I would be angry with him, unlike with my dc.

The situaions are not comparable so I don't understand your arguments.

[NoraB]

I think that parents do sometimes need to do things their children may not like. DD used to hate the car seat. I would try to gain her cooperation, which worked 99% of the time. In the end though, even if she didn't cooperate, she'd have to go in her carseat. I'd tell her, "I love you and want you to be safe. You must be in your carseat. You're having trouble helping yourself be safe right now so I'm going to help you."

As for the TV, I do set limits. TV can be very addicting. Even I have trouble sometimes setting limits for myself. I don't expect my 3 year old to be able to make those decisions yet anymore than I expect her to always remember not to run into the street.

[oceanbaby]

I'm late getting back to this, but definitely wanted to reply. There are many things here I agree with, some that I don't, and some that I'm not sure about.

First, I don't think it's relevant to compare how I interact with my dh and how I interact with my child. Yes, they are both deserving of respect, sensitivity and compassion. But it's not my job to guide dh in making healthy choices for himself. This is my job with my children. And I don't just walk into the living room and switch off the tv when ds is watching something. In fact, I am rarely ever the person to actually turn if off, it is almost always him. And it is always after we have talked about it, and then reminded, etc. And I totally understand why some people choose not to set limits with tv, or sweets, etc. I agree with much of this in theory, and have experimented with it, but in the end just don't think it is the best choice for our family at this time. Ds's behavior detriorates quickly after too much tv or sugar on an empty stomach, and it's just not fair to him or the rest of the family to allow that to happen. But the problem we are having is not only about tv. It happens over things unrelated to tv as well, so tv is not really the issue.

I sometimes end up walking away because ds won't listen to me trying to empathize, practice reflective listening ("gee, you sound really upset about that"). In fact, it seems to piss him off. It doesn't feel right to me to allow him to throw things, call me stupid, or scream in my face. In fact, I think it scares him because he knows his behavior is out of control and yet no one is stepping in to bring it back under control.

The original point of my post is what to do when he continues to follow us around with his anger. When we have tried to physically connect, when we have tried to empathize, when we have tried to explain, and nothing works. I tell him all the time that it is okay to be angry, but it is not okay to throw things. But half the time he'll just interrupt me to yell at me some more while I'm trying to say this. Or he'll actually say "Don't say that anymore!"

I will add that his verbal skills are not advanced, and I know that he has a hard time explaining more complex feelings or ideas, and I try to allow for this. But somehow he has got to learn that it is not acceptable for him to speak to us that way. I thought that simply modeling it for him would be enough, but I feel like we need some other ideas as to how to approach this when it does happen so we don't blow our top and say or do things we regret.

[velochic]

As I was reading this thread, a couple of things popped into my head, so I thought I'd respond.

First about the TV. Would it work for you, if you have the equipment, to talk to your ds each day about what he might want to watch and tape it? Each day you could perhaps have a designated time that he could watch the tape. Once the tape is over, the TV goes off because you get a blue screen. We don't watch TV, but we do let dd watch videos and that very satisfying END seems to satisfy her that we're finished with watching. She also knows how to use the remote, so she also has some control over it and that seems to help, too.

About ranting at you. I agree that kids need to let off steam, but they also need to learn how to let it off in a respectful way. We are GD in the sense that we don't spank and we respect dd as a person, but we expect that as she gets older she is learning how to redirect her feelings so that she is respectful as well. Being disrespectful has consequences even if it is simply that she does not get to enjoy the company of the person she was disrespecful to. To be honest, I don't have a very volitile dd (4 years old). When these tantrums DO occur, which is rare, I've been known to throw up my hands and say, "Forget it!!". It's hard not to. But I've been trying really hard to show and teach her that's it's okay to get mad, but to figure out a way to do something with that negative energy. Run around the house. Play her recorder really loud. Do jumping jacks. Direct the frustration at someTHING not someONE. Whatever works for you. I like the "connect with the feelings", but instead of just saying it, do something to show it. I think young kids NEED a physical outlet of their frustration because emotionally they are not mature enough to deal with the feeling. I think it's our job to help them learn to direct those feeling to something constructive, not destructive (and as they get older to deal with it intellectually, not physically). Sounds great in theory, right? Well, FWIW, it does seem to work for us although we also have had a few kicking, screaming meltdowns. Just thought I'd put that out there as an option. It may not work for you, but... hope it at least helps somehow.

[maya44]

Originally Posted by oceanbaby

I'm late getting back to this, but definitely wanted to reply. There are many things here I agree with, some that I don't, and some that I'm not sure about.

First, I don't think it's relevant to compare how I interact with my dh and how I interact with my child. Yes, they are both deserving of respect, sensitivity and compassion. But it's not my job to guide dh in making healthy choices for himself. This is my job with my children. And I don't just walk into the living room and switch off the tv when ds is watching something. In fact, I am rarely ever the person to actually turn if off, it is almost always him. And it is always after we have talked about it, and then reminded, etc. And I totally understand why some people choose not to set limits with tv, or sweets, etc. I agree with much of this in theory, and have experimented with it, but in the end just don't think it is the best choice for our family at this time. Ds's behavior detriorates quickly after too much tv or sugar on an empty stomach, and it's just not fair to him or the rest of the family to allow that to happen. But the problem we are having is not only about tv. It happens over things unrelated to tv as well, so tv is not really the issue.

I sometimes end up walking away because ds won't listen to me trying to empathize, practice reflective listening ("gee, you sound really upset about that"). In fact, it seems to piss him off. It doesn't feel right to me to allow him to throw things, call me stupid, or scream in my face. In fact, I think it scares him because he knows his behavior is out of control and yet no one is stepping in to bring it back under control.

The original point of my post is what to do when he continues to follow us around with his anger. When we have tried to physically connect, when we have tried to empathize, when we have tried to explain, and nothing works. I tell him all the time that it is okay to be angry, but it is not okay to throw things. But half the time he'll just interrupt me to yell at me some more while I'm trying to say this. Or he'll actually say "Don't say that anymore!"

I will add that his verbal skills are not advanced, and I know that he has a hard time explaining more complex feelings or ideas, and I try to allow for this. But somehow he has got to learn that it is not acceptable for him to speak to us that way. I thought that simply modeling it for him would be enough, but I feel like we need some other ideas as to how to approach this when it does happen so we don't blow our top and say or do things we regret.

First of all I really would not focus at all on how he is speaking to you at the time he is in the middle of a tantrum. Rudeness can be adressed much, much later if you really feel the need.

Second, like I said I think you really have to busy yourself with something. Given his reactions to sympathy, empathy etc... I would just go to a zen place and ignore him. IF he starts throwing things I would try to have a safe place you can both go and be locked in with nothing to throw.

I do believe that some children need to have the experience of getting over small disapointments on their own. To have the opportunity to know that "I have the power within my own body to feel better all on my own." Anything you say or do is seemingly interfering with this.

But you can't be seething about the "rude" stuff he is saying, that will only engage him further.

Some children do fear that they will "never" feel better after feeling bad, no matter how small the cause. They try to get rid of this feeling by engaging you. They will raise the stakes as much as possible. B

[oceanbaby]

I agree that kids need to let off steam, but they also need to learn how to let it off in a respectful way. We are GD in the sense that we don't spank and we respect dd as a person, but we expect that as she gets older she is learning how to redirect her feelings so that she is respectful as well. Being disrespectful has consequences even if it is simply that she does not get to enjoy the company of the person she was disrespecful to

I totally agree with this. I'm just not always sure that I am going about it the right way. (And in fairness to ds I wouldn't call him volatile either, he's actually very reasonable much of the time. But he never gets just a little angry. If he gets angry, it's full blown!)

[guest^]

Oceanbaby-thankyou for being so honest about your ds's behaviors.
My ds is much like that, but he does get physical. He will follow me kicking or hitting,or pushing,etc..
While I'm not new to GD, I am new to "no-cohersion". So, at this point, and with the info I have so far, I handle his outbursts by helping him to control his body. This would mean that I would need to hold his arms and legs as gently as possible(firmly), and calmy tell him he needs to control his foot,hand,etc..I also remind him what his feet can do(kick a ball),his hands....

But I never leave him. And I don't ignore him. It feels to me that by ignoring him when he is acting mean, sends the message that I only love him when he is being"good". I do repeat,"in our family we speak nicely to each other".

What I do ignore, are the wonderful words he learned from my nephew. Buthead,penisbrain,stupid, fartface,etc...

But really, I think this age is very hard, and that there isn't one right way to handle all of the challenges they throw our way.

I do think talking with him when he is calmed down, and I am too, works-but not all of the time. I always make sure I am validating his feelings,thoughts,needs,etc.

Right there with ya!!!!

mp