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Nutrition/Immunology 101. Sticky please.

post #1 of 1098
Thread Starter 
Why don't I want this in the nutrition forum?

Well, there is nutrition and nutrition.

The "nutrition" that I'm interested in, is what is the important nutrition in terms of the immune system.

That can translate back to vaccines too, because if you chose to vaccinate, there are certain things you should know, one of which is that there are different immune responses to vaccines, depending on the food your baby gets.

The babies who seroconvert worst to vaccines are babies fed soy formula.

Next worst is casein based formula.

Best is breast-milk.

I want this stickied so that it can be easily found, and also so that its always in front of people's eyes, because its a fundamental.

Here are the basics foundational statements, and whatever else I put up will stem from there.

1) A baby's developing immune system depends on what a mother puts into her mouth. The fetus can only use what is left over after your body has removed what it needs for you.

2) Your immune system depends on what you put in your mouth. And if you don't get that right, then you can't expect to have a healthy baby.

3) Contrary to common cloned mindsets, the basis of immunity isn't antibodies. That's the end point, and in the grand scheme of things the least important of the lot.

4) The foundation of the immune system is the instestinal tract composing, hopefully, of the right gut flora which is important because it is your first defence system for anything either eaten or breathed in.

It is also responsible for absorbing minerals, and making and processing certain B vitamins.

Without a properly "stocked" gut flora you are behind the eight-ball before you even start.

And for babies this is crucial.

4) Unfortunately doctors don't understand either nutrition or gut flora, because if they did, they wouldn't give you or babies antibiotics as if its water out of a tap, and... if they understood gut flora they would do more than (if you are lucky) tell you to take yoghurt with antibiotics.

In this thread, I'd like to go right back to the beginning and look first at the immune system for us as individuals as relates to pregnancy and developing healthy babies.

To understand that you have to understand a bit more about what happens in you as well.

But the first thing we must understand is this:

Daily Mail, March 5, 2001

FRUIT and vegetables are not as good for us as they were 50 years ago according to a scientific study. Modem farming methods mean that the amount of essential minerals In the food we eat has been reduced alarmingly. There is up to 75 per cent less calcium and 93 per cent less copper . In fruit and vegetables, the study says. Runner beans which used to contain a significant amount of sodium - vital for the working of the nerves and muscles - now have almost no traces of it at all.

The levels of other important minerals such as iron, phosphorous, potassium and magnesium have also plummeted. Nutritionist David Thomas said he was 'astonished' by his flndlngs. 'Minerals have been recognised as being very important to our physiology, but the general public has no idea that there has been this dramatic decline in the levels of such elements in our food,' he said. His research allowed that broccoli has 75 per cent less calcium, which is essential for building healthy body and teeth. Carrots have 75 per cent less magnesium, which protects against heart attacks, asthma and kidney stones.

Spinach, famous as a good source of iron, was found to have 60 per C less iron than it did 50 years ago. Mr Thomas said he believed the reduction in the mineral content in food was a result of modern farm methods which use massive amounts of fertiliser on the soil. The fertilisers encourage ph growth, but this Is at the expense of the minerals which are Important for good health. Mr Thomas said: 'We are made up of these substances. If they're deficient then the body cannot cope as well as It would otherwise.'

He based his conclusions on data from The Composition of Foods, a comprehensive study of the content of all major foods dating back to 1940. By comparing figures over a 50-year period he was able to plot certain trends. A similar analysis, comparing data from 1930 and 1980, was published in the British Food Journal in 1997. It compared 20 vegetables and found levels of calcium, iron and other minerals had declined significantly.

Professor Tim Lang, of the renowned Centre for Food Policy at Thames Valley University, said the results revealed an important trend which needed to be exposed. 'These are big percentages,' he said. 'The nature of production is altering what we are eating. Plant breeders have been trying to develop tomatoes and carrots and fruit that look nice, resist disease and can withstand being shipped halfway around the world.
'They have been less concerned about the minerals in the food. 'We are dying prematurely of coronary heart disease and cancer and we are being told to cut down on fat and eat more fruit and vegetables. But at the same time they are changing the content of what we are eating.' Mr Thomas runs a company called Trace Minerals UK, based in Sussex, which distributes a mineral supplement called ConcenTrace.

Professor Lang said that despite his commercial interest, Mr Thomas had carried out a legitimate piece of research.
post #2 of 1098
post #3 of 1098
Thread Starter 

Print These Out....

The second thing we must understand is this. That, as this says, the medical profession knows squat about diet, and that their recommendations are the ones you should stay away from.:


The third thing we need to know is that PPD and other depressive disorders can be, and most often are, nutritionally related.

You will find this in Ellen Grant's book "Sexual Chemistry" in detail, but here is another URL to print out:


Rise in mental illness linked to unhealthy diets, say studies
Changes in diet over the past 50 years appear to be an important factor behind a significant rise in mental ill health in the UK, say two reports published today.
The Mental Health Foundation says scientific studies have clearly linked attention deficit disorder, depression, Alzheimer's disease and schizophrenia to junk food and the absence of essential fats, vitamins and minerals in industrialised diets.
How much clearer can we get?

But this is not all.

You probably think I harp on about minerals, but I mean it. Minerals are so obsolutely crucial, that I don't understand why so many people just get hung up on vitamins.

vitamin C isn't really a vitamin, but I can go more into that later.

Have a lot at this, and study the excuses at the bottom and think about this very very very seriously.

If this is the case in the UK, how much MORE will it be the case in USA!


Mineral levels in meat and milk plummet over 60 years
The mineral content of milk and popular meats has fallen significantly in the past 60 years, according to a new analysis of government records of the chemical composition of everyday food.
The research looked at government tables published in 1940, and again in 2002, in the nutritional bible, The Composition of Foods, to establish levels of important minerals in dairy products and meat before the second world war and today.

The research, which is contested by the food and farming industry, found a marked decline in nutritional value during the period. The analysis is published in this month's Food magazine by the consumer watchdog the Food Commission.

The levels of iron recorded in the average rump steak have dropped by 55%, while magnesium fell by 7%. Looking at 15 different meat items, the analysis found that the iron content had fallen on average by 47%. The iron content of milk had dropped by more than 60%, and by more than 50% for cream and eight different cheeses. Milk appears to have lost 2% of its calcium, and 21% of its magnesium too.

Most cheeses showed a fall in magnesium and calcium levels. According to the analysis, cheddar provides 9% less calcium today, 38% less magnesium and 47% less iron, while parmesan shows the steepest drop in nutrients, with magnesium levels down by 70% and iron all gone compared with its content in the years up to 1940.
Now read the excuses and don't buy into a word of the.

The point isn't the excuses. You can't talk about different breeds and different feed and new methods as a validating tool. The POINT is that by using grasses that grow fast and have less minerals, and creating a cow that now produces 7 times more milk than a cow before, something has to give, and guess what? It's not going to be the cow so much as it is going to be YOU

All this rubbish about... we would see anaemic cows... come on you won't get anaemic cows, but you will get cows with far less "disposable" iron for you to have, becuase they get less of it now, and use it all up for themselves.

Just as when you are pregnant if you get less of something, you will use that up and the developing baby will get less "down the food chain"

These excuse artists do not understand the importance of, and ramifications to the principle of down the food chain when they make changes which are solely related to a bigger KACHING in the till.
post #4 of 1098
Thread Starter 
I've copied and pasted your questions to a blank e-mail, but I'm hoping an american will answer them, because what I can do here, and what you can there, are two different things.

I'll keep your questions in mind, but I want to lay more foundation work first, some of which will cover your questions.

Immunologically, one of the most important minerals is selenium. Both animal wise and humans.

First animals.

This article was removed from the website, but its in my hard drive, so I'm cutting and pasting. Obviously, the URL is irrelevant, though there are some other stuff related to the bighorns there which touches on this, but not in this detail.



Nation & World : Sunday, September 09, 2001

Fighting a battle for little bighorns

By Gary Polakovic
Los Angeles Times
WIND RIVER MOUNTAINS, Wyo. - The baby bighorn sheep stumbled and collapsed on the stony hillside, too sick and wobbly to keep up with its mother.
Jon Mionczynski, a wildlife researcher who followed the pair, had seen this before. For some reason, lambs born into the largest herd of bighorn sheep in the Rockies were not surviving.

It would be hard to find a wilder, safer sanctuary, or so it seemed. But as scientists teamed up with Mionczynski to unravel the mystery, they learned that there is no such thing as pristine wilderness and no refuge from the Industrial Age.

Mionczynski nicknamed the struggling lamb "Rambo" because of its tenacity and pluck. Each time it fell, it struggled to its feet, even after blinding an eye in a tumble.

One evening, he was close to capturing Rambo for testing, but the lamb and its mother started down the mountain and, out of reach, hunkered down in a fortress of boulders near a crag called Lion Pass.

"I returned at daybreak and saw the ewe still guarding the site," Mionczynski recalled. "She made a low-pitched, throaty bleat ... brrrr ... brrrr. It was like a sheep crying, and it just went right through me."

When he got to the boulders, he saw fresh mountain-lion droppings. "The ewe had a torn ear, blood running down her face and claw marks on the side of her head," he said. "The lamb was gone. That was the end of Rambo."

In a way, the natural order had prevailed: the strong picked off the weak. But something was unnatural, too: what was making lambs so sick within weeks of their birth? Why were ewes leading weak lambs on arduous treks through cougar country to reach mineral licks at the base of the mountain?

The herd, which used to number about 1,250, plummeted by 30 percent in two years during the early 1990s and never recovered. Since then only about two out of every 10 lambs have survived.

In 1998, the Wyoming Department of Game and Fish told Mionczynski to set up a one-man camp at nearly 12,000 feet, track the herd's every move, study every foot of their mountaintop refuge, examine plants they eat and send back blood and tissue samples of dead and dying animals.

The job called for a meticulous observer and a skilled outdoorsman, someone who did not fear grizzly bears or living in a tent in snowstorms and driving winds. For Mionczynski, it was the dream assignment.

"I have the best job in the world," Mionczynski said. "I'm just a peon in this research, but I like to think I am helping these animals."

Now, four years into the project, scientists believe they are close to solving the mystery. What they have discovered suggests that profound environmental changes are beginning to ripple through the food chain and into the bodies of lambs. They are learning that even reclusive bighorn sheep, masters of evasion, can't escape pollution that falls from the sky.

As a result, Mionczynski and others fear, these icons of wild America may be unable to survive in the wild without continual human intervention.

A summer thunderstorm peels off the Winds, a fitting name for the mountain range west of Dubois, briefly spilling rain and hail over town. Tourists pull off of U.S. 287 into the National Bighorn Sheep Interpretive Center, the newest and most ornate facility in this two-lane town. It's located past the Ramshorn Inn Tavern, not far from the high school where the Rams play, a couple blocks from the Ramshorn Food Farm on Ramshorn Street.

"This town loves these sheep and we're proud of them," said museum Director June Sampson. "In the winter, people can see them with spotting scopes from their living rooms. Hundreds of people come from all over to see the sheep."

Rocky Mountain bighorns have thrived in these mountains southeast of Grand Teton National Park for centuries. They are stocky and barrel-chested with petite feet that stick to rocks like suction cups. In the fall, rams charge one another and smash heads at speeds of 20 mph in battles that sometimes last all day and all night. Shoshone and Gros Ventre Indian tribes made powerful bows from the horns, which are still prized by hunters as trophies.

The herd inhabits the northern Winds in scattered bands. When they all converge on the sagebrush hills at the edge of town during winter, they constitute the largest group of wild sheep in North America. They once were so abundant that they were transplanted to establish new populations from South Dakota to New Mexico to Idaho.

Yet there are fewer and fewer sheep for tourists to enjoy. Barely 800 animals remain in the herd, which is still in decline.

No sooner had Mionczynski set up camp on Middle Mountain in June 1998 than he saw many lambs as feeble as Rambo. Born healthy, they grew sick shortly after ewes made their annual spring migration to Middle Mountain to forage. If pneumonia didn't kill them, predators did.

"Some were crawling on their knees. They were so sick they couldn't even get up to nurse. Their muscles just seemed so stiff and they had trouble breathing. They stuck their noses in the air, mouths open, gasping for air," Mionczynski said.

Ranchers in the lowlands reported that the ewes ate dirt at washed-out mineral licks. It helped explain why ewes were leading their sick lambs down the steep mountain to sagebrush flats that they normally visited only in winter. Something essential was missing from their diet. The route traversed some of the roughest country in the Winds, including a series of cougar ambush spots in Lion Pass.

Eventually, Mionczynski observed that lambs who nursed from the ewes that made the journey to lowland mineral licks did much better.

The challenge was to find the missing ingredient in the mountain forage.

Working in a makeshift lab fitted into a cave in the boulders, Mionczynski began testing plants the sheep eat. He discovered that the nutrient selenium had dipped to alarmingly low levels.

Selenium is a peculiar, sulfur-like element essential for many mammals. It is a naturally occurring nutrient with a twist. Just a little is needed to ensure bones, muscles and immune systems develop properly, but just a little more can be toxic.

Tests on Middle Mountain showed 5 parts per billion of selenium in forage favored by bighorns - 75 percent lower than the minimum requirement for a healthy immune system, according to veterinarians.

But how could selenium be in short supply? Soils across much of the West are awash in it. In nearby Dubois and other parts of Wyoming, range cattle are sometimes poisoned from ingesting too much of it.

The selenium content in plants fluctuates with weather, rising in dry years and falling in wet. The fluctuations correspond neatly with a 30-year lamb survival trend, with fewer surviving in wet years, scientists say.

At the same time, the chemical content of rainfall was changing. So was the composition of the soil that absorbed it.

For at least a decade, according to scientists, storms have been carrying larger and larger amounts of chemical contaminants and dumping them across the Rockies. Among the chemicals are nitrates and ammonium, which can saturate the environment with nutrients or create acidic conditions similar to those that plague forests in the Northeast and Canada. The phenomenon is known as acid rain.

At the bighorn camp on Middle Mountain, scientists tracking storms and wind currents have traced the sources of pollutants that blow in from hundreds of miles away.

On the one hand, the pollutants fertilize plants and microorganisms. On the other hand, they can saturate soil and water with nutrients, causing toxic algae blooms, harmful acids and changes in soil chemistry.

"We're pushing the first dominoes in the food chain, and there's good evidence it's increasing and probably in response to nitrogen deposition," said Mark Williams, a hydrogeochemist and fellow at the Institute of Arctic and Alpine Research at the University of Colorado at Boulder. "We've reached a threshold and we're at that slippery slope where we are headed toward dead fish and dead trees."

Near Colorado's Rocky Mountain National Park, scientists have begun an experiment to see if pollutants are short-circuiting the selenium cycle and contributing to declines in the bighorn herd at St. Vrain Canyon, said Rob Roy Ramey, chairman of zoology at the Denver Museum of Nature and Science.

"Urbanization and sheep deaths seem to go hand in hand. We know there's a lot of acidification of the front range of the Rockies, and this offers a perfectly reasonable and clear mechanism. It's a hypothesis, but it's very plausible," Ramey said.
post #5 of 1098
Thread Starter 
Now humans


Biol Neonate. 2002 Aug;82(2):122-7. Related Articles, Links

Maternal selenium nutrition and neonatal immune system development.

Dylewski ML, Mastro AM, Picciano MF.

Department of Nutrition, Pennsylvania State University, University Park, PA, USA.

We evaluated the impact of dietary selenium intake on neonatal immune cell differentiation and function. A low selenium intake during pregnancy and lactation produced reductions in maternal plasma selenium (33%, p = 0.0001), milk selenium (36%, p = 0.001), and corresponding neonatal plasma selenium (47%, p = 0.008). Thymocytes from neonates receiving low-selenium milk showed an impaired activation in vitro (p = 0.001). The percentages of CD8 cytotoxic T cells (p = 0.03), CD2 T cells (p = 0.09), panB cells ( = 0.02), and natural killer cells (p = 0.07) were all decreased in neonates nursed by mothers fed a low-selenium diet. The results indicate that maternal selenium intake impacts neonatal selenium status which in turn influences the neonatal immune system development. Copyright 2002 S. Karger AG, Basel

PMID: 12169835 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
post #6 of 1098
Thread Starter 
Selenium deficiency and Viral infection:



Host nutritional selenium status as a driving force for influenza virus mutations1


Selenium deficiency increases the pathology of an influenza virus infection.
FASEB J. 2001 Jun;15(8):1481-3. No abstract available.



the key with selenium is that NOT ONLY is it a "turn-off" for viruses, it is the key to good immune function and the excretion of toxic chemicals and metals.

While it protects against the toxic effects of the pollutant cadmium, and mercury from all sources, it also increases the effectiveness of vitamin E, and it reduces the chances of all types of cancer. It is an antioxidant that helps prevent chromosome breakage in tissue culture. In communities where selenium intake is low, the cancer rate is high.

An adequate intake of selenium for animals is 200 parts per billion, and this is probably sufficient for man. But I don't know how to translate that into a dose. So I wouldn't go beyond 200 mcgs. It is however, crucial for the proper functioning of the human body beign a primary promoter of human cells mitosis/meiosis, and human "growth".

In animals selenium deficiency is directly related to nutritional muscular dystrophy, spontaneous swelling and haemorrhages, pancreatic atrophy, liver necrosis and infertility.

It appears to be stored in the liver, and remains constant in the blood until these stores are depleted...

It is the basis of the unique enzyme system Glutathion eperoxidase, which destroys peroxides before they can attack cellular membranes, while the vitamin E acts within the membrane itself preventing the oxidation of membrain lipids.... peroxidase activity represent overal selenium status... anemia in premature infants have been attributed to reduced glutathione activity in erythrocytes. Selenium does not substitute for sulphur in the body, as was once thought... but has a unique biochemical function.

Men have large stores of selenium, and secrete it in seminal fluids.

Selenosis is very rare. Too much selenium, generally absorbed from inorganic salts or from organic compounds in plants, produces toxic symptoms, as it is one of the most poisonous elements in the universe.

These include loss of hair, nails and teeth; dermatitis; lassitude and progressive paralysis. Acute poisoning causes fever 103 - 105... Increased respiratory and capillary rate, gastroenteritis, meylitis, anorexia and even death...

food souces are brewer's yeast, garlic, liver and aggs. manimal sources are richer than egetables. All foods lose selenium in processing. Brown rice has 15x the amount of selenium as white rice, and whole wheat bread twice as much selenium as white.

Selenium influences thyroid hormone and iodine metabolism as well as already widely studied antioxidant systems.
post #7 of 1098
Thread Starter 
Man needs sulphur and its natural contaminant, selenium for skin, hair, fingernails and toenails and to build certain amino acids in the cells and brain, and make sulfonated compounds for the joints.

Suphur has a key interaction with selenium, and is often referred to as the stepchild of sulphur...Ohio is very low, Dakota and Nebraska are very high...the wheat and corn grown in Ohio are so low in selenium, that cattle feed was, at one time, shipped from South Dakoa in order to supply adequate selenium, before supplemental animals feeds with Selenium was allowed.

What does selenium do? Well, with a deficiency, there is a reduction in the activity of the enzyme gluthathione peroxidase, and this results in reduced immune function, which has its greatest effect on the helper T dependent cells and productuion of Ig.M is impaired. Which is important since IgM is one of the front line Th1 antibodies which is made in the early stages of an infection.

Deficiency in selenium or Vitamin E also show reduced natural killer cell activity. Neutrophils and macrophages from animals with a selenium deficiency show low glutathione peroxidase activity and a failure to kill ingested candida yeast, yet bacteria killing may remain okay.

With regard to the enzymes. Glutathione is essential for
-detoxification and liver function
-effective immune response
-antioxidant defence
-male fertility (in my experience, low sperm counts can be turned around by organic diets, Vit E, Selenium and a multi-vitamin. Only problem (for some women) is a reported increase in male libido.......)
-blood sugar metabolism
-blood pressure regulation
-tumour inhibition
-inhibition of thrombus formation in diabetes
-prevention of neurodegenrative disorders like Alheimers disease, Parkinson disease, Huntington's chorea, stroke and brain trauma.

Effective Glutathione is important for T cell proliferation, development of large CD8+ T cells, cytotoxic T cell activity and production of CD16+ natural killer cells. Which results in poor response to antigen presentation, and weak immune responses to infectious agents.

Glutathion protects and repairs liver tissue under severe acute and chronic alcohol exposure (not that using it gives you an excuse to abuse even more )

Selenium protects against the toxic effects of the pollutants cadmium, and mercury. It helps prevent chromosome breakage in tissue culture...

It is interesting that children suffering from malnutrition fail to grow when given a recuperative diet, IF THAT DIET IS SELENIUM DEFICIENT, becauase selenium is necessary for protein synthesis.

Lets have a look at one of the most important functions of the body which involved amino acids...

Low selenium can result in low glutathione levels, and if you have low glutathione levels you can't chelate out heavy metals efficiently. So if you have high heavy metal loadings, you need to look at the glutathione pathways, and don't be surprised if tests come back with low selenium levels.

I fyou want to increase the function of glutathione pathway to chelate out heavy metals, you need to concentrate on the foods that will produce cysteine and methionine.. or you can, like the Pfeiffer brain center use L-cysteine, but ALWAYS use diet, or L-cytsteine with extra selenium AND Vitamin C, because cysteine works with synergistically with vitamin C, protecting cell membraines against oxidation of lipid so helping to detoxify pesticides, herbicides, plastics, orhter hydrocarbons and various drugs with minimal potential damage

Cysteine. Do you know what it is? Cysteine and glutathione are known as the detoxifiers, and where we find large quantities of heavy metals, usually the glutathione system isn't working well. Cysteine is a water soluble sulfur amino acid, that is a biochemical powerhouse. It helps the body process and render harmless toxic chemicals and carcinogens. Chemically its structure is simple. The amino acid is combined with a sulfur-containing thiol group.

Thiol... as in the common antibacterial agent merthiolate indicates that the compound contains a sulfur and a hydrogen atom bound together. The greeks used garlic as their main source of this compound, though they wouldn't have know the technical term.

Cysteine is active in many situations in the body because of the special properties of the thiol grouping at the end of each cysteine molecule. Thiol compounds act as reducing agents, by preventing oxidation of sensitive tissue. They do it by sacrificing themselves in place of the oxidation.. cystine in created when two cysteines bond together.

If you want to understand the functions of these two compounds you need to get and read Carl C. Pfeiffer's book "The healing nutrients within: Facts Findings and new research on Amino acids." It's quite an old book, but I like it.

Cysteine is an active part of fatty acid synthase, and people who are short of cysteine can have problems there. Glutathione is a protein containing cysteine, and cysteine sulphinic acid have an important role as a neurotransmitters so it would come as no surprise to find that people who are depressed or psychotic are short of it... but its primary role is in the liver where glutathione acts as the toxic waste neutralizer, and a major scavenger of hazardous oxidants.

Are you still with me?...

so cysteine is the major amino acid and that determines how much glutathione is produced by the body, and it is cysteine's thiol group that gives glutathione its power...

all the horny layers of the skin including hair and fingernails (keratin is 12% cystine) are high in cystine. There is evidence that high-sulphur proteins are missing in the hair of humans who are experiencing hair loss. Chances are you have low cystine and taurine in your blood and again, the solution to this may be the L-cysteine. Sure, selenium is part of it, and has to be given, but it may be the sulphur proteins that aren't laying down, because your glutathione mechanisms are misfiring.

So again, it may not just be selenium deficiency, but a flow on in terms of cysteine in glutathione, that has caused hair loss.

In addition, like vitamin C, cysteine can help kill bacteria and past part of the glutathione molecule is an essential part of the immune system...


without selenium, cysteine and vitamin C are hamstrung.

Do you get that connection? Are you still with me, or is this mud?

Are you surrounded by smokers? Cigarette smoke is high in nickel and again, the lungs rely on cysteine and glutathione function joined with Vitamin C, Vitamin A selenium and zinc to detoxify the nickel out of the lungs. If you are short on any of those, the glutathione can't do its job, and nickel will build up.

BUT... if you are low in magnesium and zinc, that will also reduce your GSH concentration in the red blood cells and further hamper glutathione metabolism.

If you have trouble processing sugar, that is related. Diabetics need a lot more cysteine and taurine, and excrete increased amounts of sulfur amino acids... cysteine and methionine are important in the synthesis of lipoic acid from linoleic acid, which can reduce the need for insuline, so again impaired glutathione issues have potentially large impacts in many areas of supposedly "diet" issues.

So glutathione has four primary function in the body, all protective.

It's a reducing agent, protecting the body against natural and man-made oxidants. It is an antitoxin, essential in several aspects of immune system function, helps protect the integrity of red blood cells and is a neurotransmitter but in your case, the first two functions are what makes it important to your situation.

Many industrial chemicals form peroxides as they are matabolized by the liver, including carbon tetrachloride, benzenes and numerous plastics, dyes, herbicides and pesticides. Unchecked, such peroxides can virtually render the liver into fat, but GSH (or cystein) comes to the rescue in the form of a complex called GSH peroxidase, which prevents these substances from attacking and peroxiating unsaturated lipids or oxidizing other cell parts.

I know, this is getting complicated.

A second enzyme compled in the liver is GSH S-transferases which chemically transforms toxic compounds into less harmful products which are excreted through the colon via liver bile. This is why sluggish liver function, and the presence of gall stones isn't a good idea.

This is why Ellen Grant recommends reduced Glutathione, 150 mgs a day for anyone with hormone issues; because anything in the liver can make peri or pre menopausal or PMT issues much much worse. She prefers it in 50 mgs 3 x a day, but this one below, can only do am and pm...

This is the product she finds most effective.


I can't get anything similar here, but fortunately I like, crave and pig out on the foods most needed, so maybe somewhere my body has a second brain.

It's not for nothing that the chinese consider that the proper functioning of the liver is the primary seat of health.

If you read pages 5 and 6 of this pdf, you will start to see the mineral connection as well:


Heavy metal removal doesn't necessarily have to be done with chelation. I don't like chelation, becuase I think it can be done with vitamin C, selenium, other minerals and reduced glutathione, or foods high in the right amino acids.

Remember these people are also in it to make money, though I think their heart is more correctly aligned with where it should be, but I don't think this has to be sorted out in an expensive way. Unless whatever you have is life threatening, I think the best was is a slower way.

Lets have a look at how glutathione works in the immune system. It indirectly helps transport amino acids across membranes. One of these L-alanine, is essential for the production of lymphocytes, (white blood cells) and human lymphocytes contain three times as much GSH as animal lymphocites do.

The other part of the immune system that relies of glutathione is phagocytes which work with a series of proteins that destroy membranes of invading bacteria. The thymus has high levels of glutathione, and is an important organ in the orchestration of lymphoctyes.

When glutathion is depleted, this also affects macrophages that function within loose connective tissues and organs like the spleen , lungs and liver so if glutathione is low, production by macrophages of the prostaglandin leukotriene C is inhibited. LC, is essential for cells of the immune system to reach invading organisms.

So can you see why people with mineral deficiencies like selenium can have a whole cascade of things going on which stuff not only the immune system but the way the body detoxifies heavy metals?

glutathione protects the membranes of red blood cells, and women who take the pill, their blood cells respond by producing extra glutathione because the pill raises blood lipids and lipo-peroxides, so the blood responds by trying to protect itself from the dangers of peroxidation.

glutathione is a cofactor in full thyroid function, and stimulating milk production.

Many breastfeeding mums whose milk "runs out" don't run out of milk. Their bodies are a mess and they run out of glutathione, and taurine and a range of B vitamins that are involved in that pathway as well, because stress = B vitamin, mineral and vit C depletion, and if you are low in selenium, bingo. That can start a downward spiral that works out like a spiderweb.

So you can also see how this related to children with ADD etc, who can't excrete mercury... and who after vaccines get "autism". It's a whole spiral which often starts before pregnancy with the mineral imbalances that are imposed on a womans body by taking the pill, and then with "average" diets, things sort of go from bad to worse. A baby in utero can only use what is available to it.

And if they have an environmentally acquired mineral deficiency and a glutathione function that isn't working along with other amino acid enzyme pathways, they are sitting ducks for everything from gut problems to supposed ADHD etc, which are often biochemical and not a "behavioural" disorder...

Of course gut flora comes in here too, since gut flora is essential in the absorption and utilisation of minerals.

Little tip here.

Glutathion pathway is one of the biggest reasons you should never ever use tylenol. It bombs out the glutathione circuits. And if you get hormonal headaches, you will get a rebound one after tylenol, because your glutathione metabolism is funked out.

Blood glutathione levels change in direct proportion to the amount of cystein in the diet, and acts as a reservoir for cysteine storage. Methionine in the diet alse enhances glutathione synthesis, because the body can convert methionine into cysteine. Whenever methionine or cysteine is deficient, gluathione levels drop. Sulfur is essential in this process and is obtained primarily from foods containing methionine and cysteine.

As long as the diet contains enough methionine or cysteine/cystine, glutathione levels will be adequate.

The exception to this rule is babies, because their bodies can't manufacture cysteine or taurine from methionine, so their needs will come solely from breastmilk THEREFORE if a mother doesn't have enough, neither will her baby. Formula fed babies usually have inadequate cystein or taurine, and cow's milk can't do the job either.

So your high methionine and cysteine foods are egg yolks, red peppers, muscle protein, garlic, onion, asparagus, cabbage, brussel sproutes, broccoli, cauliflower, mustard and horseradish.

Your cystine in foods are duck (highest source) turkey, chicken pork, togurt, cottage chesse, ricotta, and wheatgerm is very high... there may be others, but I can't remember...

(cystine is created when two cysteines bond together, hydrogen is left off, and they become cystine)

The body turns over about 850 mgs of sulphur a day, so we need more sulfur than we get, compared to other elements, and again, many areas of the world have soil depleted in sulfur. People who live in areas which are old glacial areas will have deficiencies in sulfur, selenium, iodide and zinc, and therefore diet alone might not be enough.

So it would be hard to know how to start on this without understanding a lot more about what is going on in you.

You could start by revamping your diet, but I can't imagine you haven't done that ad nauseum... and taking selenium Vitamin C and other minerals, but remember too, that if you get your glutathione back to normal, low levels of zinc, folic acid and taurine may also come back normal.

Once I did the minerals and pigged out on sulfur foods, it all fell back into place...

Remember that glutathione never acts alone. It's a coenzme in many enzymatic functions so if it is going wrong, a whole lot of stress will be placed on many other pathways.

But its the key in heavy metal chelation so that's why I've rambled on like an idiot about it...

And incidentally, if you have children with major tooth decay you should look at their glutathione and minerals becuase cysteine plays a major role in reducing that too.

So remember that you need B vitamins,Vitamin C, Vitamin E, efas, selenium, magnesium and zinc in the pathways of glutathione productions...

Oh, and don't forget Taurine is crucial, being a sulfur amino acid like methionine cystine, cysteine, and homocystein... but I'm not going to rabbit on about that here... but its important to stimulate prolactic and insulin release, and the parathyroids need it... as does the thyroid.

Methionine is the sulfur amino acid we call the allergy fighter, so most children with allergies will also have defective glutathione pathways, and you can be pretty sure they will have mineral imbalances.

The more I think about it, the more I think anyone wanting to understand these things properly should try to find either Pfeiffers book on amino acids, or something that outlines the same things, because you need to understand the metabolic pathways.

The detoxicant amino acidss are cysteine, glutamine, glycine, methionine, taurine and tyrosine, and the immunostimulants amino acids are alanine, aspartic acid, cysteine, glycine, lysine and threonine, but all are mineral and vitamin dependant...

so while some people will talk about protein, I prefer to talk about amino acids, but the two go together.

Selenium though is at the core.

Even with babies, where you have major FTT, you can have everything in its place, but if you haven't got selenium, nothing else will really work, because protein absorption and construction has at its axis, selenium.

For those of you with children with heavy metal or toxicity issues, please check out slide 12 of this presentation:


It shows you the glutathione pathway and where B6 B12 fit in. It might be better (or worse) for your head than my words.

Notice the next slide as well, abnormal methionine transulfuration...

slide 14 gives you a picture of how cysteine to glutathione does detoxification.

there may be other things in this powerpoint presentation that are useful to you.

That should have your heads spinning enough for now...
post #8 of 1098
Thread Starter 
Originally Posted by My3Kids'Mama

Okay, so now back to my question. We are slowly but steadily improving our diet, but unfortunately do not have the money to always buy organic.Sometimes I have to choose two organic produce items vs. a variety of non-organic produce items, and I usually opt for the wider variety and attempt to wash well.
If you can, I'd like to encourage you to do a vege garden, or if you can't, to get some plant containers, and grow your own parley and other herbs. Use rock dust and good compost, and learn about soils and what they need. If water is an issue, do what we do and have bowls in every sink, so if you rinse something, or rinse your hands, the non-soap water is saved and put on the plants. This way, even if you are just using small amounts every day, you are going to get a far better mineral concentration than stuff bought at a shop..

*Sodium Ascorbate (NOW powder -- 50 mg/kilo bodyweight for kids, 100mg/kilo bodyweight for adults)
Bronsons sell in bulk and theirs is kosher.

*I need a multivitamin. I am nursing, and I need one that is kosher or vegan. Suggestions are welcome.
I think most importantly you need a mineral formula.

I don't know what you can get there, but the one I use is this:


But remember, this is designed for our soil deficiencies in our country. You need to work out yours.

This is an old map of USA for selenium. Try to find a newer one, because I can't...


* Multivitamin for the kids (currently 5 & 2; the baby gets through me, obviously). They are taking one right now with fluoride which I would like to eliminate as my recent research indicates this isn't a good idea.
Again, the minerals come first. Vitamins second.

I don't count vit C as a vitamin. It's a bridge between everything, particularly enzyme pathways.

Don't forget sprouted foods. Do you sprout your own?

*Probiotics. I have Acidophilus, which I take in capsule form 3x a day. Do I give this to my kids (including the baby), how, and how much?

I make my own yoghurt, and kefir, and also take yakult.

In terms of bread I only eat sourdough, is its the only bread that is mineral rich. Yeasted bread has minerals but they aren't bioavailable, becuase the phytic acid hasn't been neutralised, and the minerals haven't been worked on by the sourdough probiotics.
post #9 of 1098
Thread Starter 
Nicole, Yes, I'd chuck the flouride. Flouride is NOT the basis for good strong teeth and bones. That doctors think so, shows just how silly they are.

In terms of a multi vitamin, apart from sprouted foods and doing the best you can, I'm hoping others here will give their ideas. I know there are people here who belong to farming co-ops and other intersting groups. Also, find out about any local farmer's markets and whether or not they are organic etc...

What I'd like from readers is questions or information like the above, that they know or feel is important.

I need to do chores for a while, but will be back later and hopefully see stuff put here that I too can learn from.
post #10 of 1098
Because of your other post on selenium I picked up a pack of tablets. Our ability to buy fresh, wholesome food is very limited due to the area in which we live.

As the cynical side of me has been developing greatly since coming to the forum, I immediately checked the ingredients:

Selenium from yeast
Dicalcium phosphate

see link I found while looking to see what it was:
I wasn't sure what to think after reading it.
mycrocrystaline cellulose
croscarmellose sodium
stearic acid
magnesium stearate
hydroxypropyl methylcellulose
This one also worries me ... I'm not sure I am reading it properly.

silicon dioxide
carnuba wax

Is there anything that you know offhand that I should be concerned with regarding the extra ingredients? I kept getting browser hits on companys that make the ingredients but not much in the way of info on the ingredients themselves.

If this post is not what you wanted for the sticky I completely understand and have no problem deleting.
post #11 of 1098

my Mineral

My mineral mix is a liquid minerals sold by the gallon. I add this to my distilled water and drink freely. I add it to my kid's water too. Can also be added to fresh juices and smoothies, frozen homemade popcicles.
Silverado Jurassic 75 colloidal minerals. Company is from Orem Utah.
post #12 of 1098
love ya MT!!

this was exactly what I was looking for recently!
post #13 of 1098

other selenium source

I take Nature's Sunshine Vitamin E Complete with Selenium
The selenium is amino acid chelate and one capsule is 25 mcg. THe Vit E contains d-alpha, beta, delta and gamma tocopherol and alpha beta, delta and gamma tocotrienol. I like to break open the capsule and take the liquid. That way I avoid eating the gelatin from the capsule and I get better absorption.
post #14 of 1098
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara
I think most importantly you need a mineral formula.

I don't know what you can get there, but the one I use is this:

DH, the kids and I take this one, it's excellent and available in the US:

post #15 of 1098
Thread Starter 
Looks good.

this is the selenium I use when fresh brazils aren't around:

post #16 of 1098
Thread Starter 
Useful Information on pure aussie sea minerals:

post #17 of 1098
Thread Starter 
I mentioned sulphur foods so lets look at them next.

Sulphur is the partner of iron, calcium and sodium. as a "fumigator" it purifies, and sleanses working through the bowel to eleminate much of the "bad air" from the body. If your WC room is uninhabitable for a while after you've been there, you need sulphur rich foods to deal with this problem inside, not outside your body.

Sulphur also helps normalise probiotics and good gut flora, and as part of the liver's function (sodium sulphate) helps regulate bile flow and liver enzymes.

A sulphur needy person is windy; stomach rumbly and toots somewhat, in a manner that might require tip sanitisers.

they often have gall bladder, liver issues and suffer "bloat" soon after food.

EAting up your spinach may have more relation to sulphur than to iron.

The more muscle meats you eat, the more you need the amino acid balance to be right, and if you find you can't handle meat well, it may be that you need more suphur to do that.

If you've always had firm, dry bowle movements and eat too much sulphur too quick you'll have montezuma's revenge in no time at all. the old fashioned sluphur and molasses purge used to be like a high pressure hose.

Sulphur stops putrefaction, and that's why so many dried fruits have it added.

So what are organic food sources which are rich in sulphur?

2 eggs, 220 mg sulphur
2 cups milk 185 mg (low fat)
2 cupls milk std 145 mg.

1 cup pawpaw 105 mg

1/3 rd cup panuts/macadamia 190 mg
1/3 cup brazil/cashew 150 mg
4 slices bread 105 mg
1/3 cup almost 75 mg
100 gms shellfish 470 mg
100 gms beef 270 mgs
100 mgs chicken/pork 270
100 grams lamb 230
100 gms fish 220

1 cup brussel sprouts 130
1 cup cabbage 90
3/4 cup baked beans 90
2 med potatoes 80
3/4 cup split peas 75
2 cobs sweetcorn 75
1/2 cup asparagus 70
1 cup cauliflower 60
3/4 cup pease 55
1 med onion 55.

Up to 50% lost in cooking, but recovered if the water is used as soup base or drunk.

Avocados, celery,cucumber,mushrooms,Tomatoes
, garlic,Bitter tasting vegetables like turnips, spinach, asparagus, radishes, horseradish, and brussel sprouts
post #18 of 1098
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara
FRUIT and vegetables are not as good for us as they were 50 years ago according to a scientific study. Modem farming methods mean that the amount of essential minerals In the food we eat has been reduced alarmingly. There is up to 75 per cent less calcium and 93 per cent less copper . In fruit and vegetables, the study says. Runner beans which used to contain a significant amount of sodium - vital for the working of the nerves and muscles - now have almost no traces of it at all.
MT, I have a question about this... Is this just for conventionally grown food, or even store-bought organics? I assume organics have to be better, but I know that organic standards aren't really as good as they could be.

We have a small garden that we grow a few things in over the summer, but I'm thinking we should expand it. I also want to get the soil tested - the previous owners of our house built the garden and used wood to square-off the garden. I'm concerned about additives leaching from the wood into the soil.
post #19 of 1098
Thread Starter 
Conventionally grown foods, supposedly, but there are rip-off artists everywhere.

I have to admit our garden also has wood to square off the beds, and yes, additives leaching is a concern. I just try not to think about it. I've talked it over with the organics people here, who tell me that if you have high organic composition in soil, some of the toxicities are bound in that, and not transferred to plants. I hope they weren't patronising me, because I can't afford to change what we have done... If you have access to old railway sleepers, they might be better.
post #20 of 1098
Just wanted to mention one thing about Vit C and ask a couple of questions:

I'm not sure if folks are concerned about genetically modified foods or not but several of the sodium ascorbate powders out there *do* contain genetically modified ingredients. I believe that both NOW foods brand and Source Naturals *do* contain GMO. Bronson's & Nutribiotic do not contain GMOs. Both can be bought in bulk (I think up to 2.2lb containers). Just thought I'd pass that along in case anyone is concerned.

Now, two questions for MT:

1. Is there a particular kind of probiotic you recommend to start your yogurt culture? And can we get anough good gut flora from merely eating yogurt or drinking kefir? What kind of probiotic would you recommend for folks who can't tolerage dairy? As an aside, one of the natural healthcare practitioners I saw said that yogurt & kefir don't provide *enough* good bacteria and that an actual supplement is necessary. Any thoughts?

2. What is sprouting? I've heard you refer to that a couple of times and I guess I"m confused.
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