Nutrition/Immunology 101. Sticky please. - Page 3

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by Planta

This opens up a whole huge field that is barely touched by science.
Maybe you will find interesting this link: http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/...graw_eat2.html

I probably don't fit into this thread (I have an unfinished discussion with MT on this...), but I'd like to simply point to the existence of an entirely different angle to the nutrition issue (which, of course, is connected to immunity and everything else in us).
When I started to research nutrition I had a big puzzle: why is it that we have to read somewhere what we should eat to be healthy? Why are we not very healthy if we simply listen to what our body says?
I reached a very interesting and unexpected answer: it's because we eat cooked food. If we ate only raw food (preferably from infancy) our food instinct would be intact, we would be in close contact with our body's needs in the same way that all wild animals are. There is no (or very little) degeneration of the human species, all the proper senses are there!

Interesting. I totally believe cooked food is addictive and completely detrimental to our health and wellbeing. Raw food is the only food we can digest throughly and properly without carcinogenic toxins. I believe animals are guided by instinct to eat raw food that are rich in nuritients and bacteria and if we were healthy animals we would do the same. However, we live in an industrial-food, carbohydrate-addicted, bacteria-phobic world, so we eat from a mixed-up combination of instinct, habit and addiction. If you study the eating habits of instinctive raw foodists, they tend to eat foods that appeal to their senses of smell, taste and fullness, which ends up to be a lot of fruit. This is not a optimal diet for a human. I don't think humans are designed to thrive on a raw plant food diet, for a truly optimal diet (IMO) you need raw animal foods, including dairy, meat, eggs and a small amount of green vegetables and fruit.

When you have generations upon generations of ancestors eating cooked foods, it is a real struggle to stick to a raw food diet because of the conditioning. I know it is doable, but it takes one heck of a lot a willpower which is why high carbohydrate raw foods are so much easier, they are so much more appealing. Those on an instinctive raw plant food diet even with all their ancestors nutritional baggage, will be better of than anyone on a SAD, but there is a great tendency for over-emotionality, hyperactivity and irritability.

[Planta]

Originally Posted by uccomama

This is not a optimal diet for a human. I don't think humans are designed to thrive on a raw plant food diet, for a truly optimal diet (IMO) you need raw animal foods, including dairy, meat, eggs and a small amount of green vegetables and fruit.

How do you know this? What do you think about this: http://www.vegan-straight-edge.org.uk/taxonomy.htm
At the moment I am not convinced of what exactly is the optimal human diet, but I believe that the path that leads to finding that out does not go through cooked food and also not through endless compound research (actually I think that research could prove fruitful in this area, but this might be way after our time).

[MindfulBirth]

Originally Posted by Galatea

Do you think that we can rely on our cravings as a guide to what we are deficient in? For example, I crave spinach, mushrooms, berries, and rich meat (ham, pork, beef). I see those listed as positive foods in MT's posts.

Unfortunatly, I crave Krispy Kreme donuts, but I don't think I'm deficient in "glaze."

MT- I've always been hesitant to take extra vitamins and minerals because I don't know what MY body needs. I don't want to start popping pills just because it is the latest thing that I've read about how wonderful it is.

As much as I respect and trust your opinion, I don't want to run out and buy a bottle of selenium or whatever just cause you say to, KWIM? (I'm sure you understand, as you are always challenging us to think for ourselves!)

So...how do I go about figuring out exactly what I, personally, need to take and how much? Are there blood tests? Is there a chart that says "if you feel rundown..you are deficient in this; if you feel achy..you are deficient in that"???

Head spinning...but I want to understand. Do you offer a remedial course?

[Guest*]

Subbing.

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by Planta

How do you know this? What do you think about this: http://www.vegan-straight-edge.org.uk/taxonomy.htm
At the moment I am not convinced of what exactly is the optimal human diet, but I believe that the path that leads to finding that out does not go through cooked food and also not through endless compound research (actually I think that research could prove fruitful in this area, but this might be way after our time).

I think the author(s) have an agenda and are viewing this information through a very strong filter. I assume by herbivores, they are referring to apes, and not the four-legged herbivores. When humans eat mainly fruit we incurr health problems, like osteoporosis, tooth degeneration, anxiety, hyperactivity, over-emotionality and temperature sensitivity. We mainly have an acidic digestive tract and more than a little raw high-carbohydrate fruit over-alkalinizes the intestines. I think we need the raw fat, especially in the toxic industrial world we now have to inhabit. True herbivores (not frugivores - primates), have nearly 60,000 times more enzymes than we have to disassemble cellulose to obtain the fat and protein from vegetation.

I agree with you on raw food, but I guess we don't agree on the kind of raw food. However, I think this is a personal choice and if you end up deciding an instinctive raw plant food diet is the way to go, I am not going to argue with you, I applaud you because I find it so hard to stick to an all raw diet, so tend to follow the WAP guidelines instead.

[JaneS]

Originally Posted by chlobo

Just wanted to mention one thing about Vit C and ask a couple of questions:

I'm not sure if folks are concerned about genetically modified foods or not but several of the sodium ascorbate powders out there *do* contain genetically modified ingredients. I believe that both NOW foods brand and Source Naturals *do* contain GMO. Bronson's & Nutribiotic do not contain GMOs. Both can be bought in bulk (I think up to 2.2lb containers). Just thought I'd pass that along in case anyone is concerned.

I wouldn't supplement with sodium ascorbate everyday... just in times of disease/colds etc. b/c you would have to balance it with bioflavanoids.

I found how to make your own sodium ascorbate here, maybe MT can check this out and tell us if instructions are legit:

Put 1 level tsp of ascorbic acid (4 g) in a glass, add 1/2 tsp Arm and Hammer baking soda, add 1 inch of water, let fizz, dilute to 8 oz and drink. The compound made here is fresh sodium ascorbate.
http://gerardjudd.com/goodteeth.htm

Fresh vitamin c foods or a whole C powder with bioflavanoids like Acerola powder or Amla tablets might be much better for everyday.

http://www.radiantlifecatalog.com/pr.../ct/2/pid/1062
http://www.radiantlifecatalog.com/pr.../ct/2/pid/1063

I'm editing to add the recent sodium ascorbate compendium link here, some people just need more C:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=353318

Originally Posted by chlobo

Now, two questions for MT:

1. Is there a particular kind of probiotic you recommend to start your yogurt culture? And can we get anough good gut flora from merely eating yogurt or drinking kefir? What kind of probiotic would you recommend for folks who can't tolerage dairy? As an aside, one of the natural healthcare practitioners I saw said that yogurt & kefir don't provide *enough* good bacteria and that an actual supplement is necessary. Any thoughts?

If I may jump in...

The comment about yogurt not being enough applies to store bought yogurt only. The qualifications for being able to call it "live and active cultures" is around 100,000 (I think). That is very very low.

If you make your own yogurt, you can ferment 24 hrs. at 100-110 degrees F. At that point, all the lactose is eaten up and the probiotics grow exponentially more than at lesser times. This yogurt has been tested to contain 15 billion good bacteria count per teaspoon. The highest capsules I'm aware of is Culturelle at 10 bill.

To elminate all lactose in Kefir, because it grows at a lower termperature and thus more slowly, I believe you have to culture for 24 hrs, then strain out grains, then ripen for another 24.

I use the oven method of making yogurt and its very very easy. You can make as much as you want, different kinds. I keep the yogurt warm in the oven with just the light turned on. It stays above 100 degrees for the full 24 hrs. (I also set the glass jars on my pizza stone which also warms up.)

Google "Dom's Kefir Site" for instructions for grape juice kefir. You can also make acidophilus yogurt with alternative milks (coconut, nut) but you won't get the high counts as you will with dairy. You would need to add some sort of sweetner to the coconut or nut milk as a source of carbs for the buggies to eat.

Also maybe you want to try goat's milk. My DS cannot handle cow's dairy protein (even raw and yogurt-ized) but does great on goat's milk yogurt. The proteins are very different. Especially if you get some raw goat's so the pasteurization hasn't packed the proteins together.

[JaneS]

More sources of minerals to check out.

These are in a lot of health food stores:
http://www.traceminerals.com/products.html

DS is very sensitive to any sugars, so he takes these, only avail. online:
http://www.brainchildnutritionals.co...Ingrediex.html
(minerals only)

[JaneS]

Originally Posted by Planta

When I started to research nutrition I had a big puzzle: why is it that we have to read somewhere what we should eat to be healthy? Why are we not very healthy if we simply listen to what our body says?
I reached a very interesting and unexpected answer: it's because we eat cooked food. If we ate only raw food (preferably from infancy) our food instinct would be intact, we would be in close contact with our body's needs in the same way that all wild animals are. There is no (or very little) degeneration of the human species, all the proper senses are there!

I completely agree with you, especially after reading WAP's "Nutrition and Physical Degeneration" and the stories of nutritional instinctiveness. Native American's knowledge of animal gland sources of vitamins A & C to avoid nightblindness and scurvy. And the Eskimos who eat nothing but fat and meat, most or all raw, and don't go into ketosis b/c it is fully digested aided by the enzymes in the raw foods.

It is very hard to go against society and conditioning and listen to your body in many ways, not just nutritionally.

[sunshinestarr]

Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara

Selenium influences thyroid hormone and iodine metabolism as well as already widely studied antioxidant systems.

What does this mean for a hypothyroid-er, like myself?
Thanks!

[mommaem]

[QUOTE=theatremum]Unfortunatly, I crave Krispy Kreme donuts, but I don't think I'm deficient in "glaze."

MT- I've always been hesitant to take extra vitamins and minerals because I don't know what MY body needs. I don't want to start popping pills just because it is the latest thing that I've read about how wonderful it is.

As much as I respect and trust your opinion, I don't want to run out and buy a bottle of selenium or whatever just cause you say to, KWIM? (I'm sure you understand, as you are always challenging us to think for ourselves!)

So...how do I go about figuring out exactly what I, personally, need to take and how much? Are there blood tests? Is there a chart that says "if you feel rundown..you are deficient in this; if you feel achy..you are deficient in that"???
:

except the krispy creams i hate dounuts!! that was my question as well. IVE BEEN SEARCHING FOR INFO LIKE THIS! There is som much info i dont know what is accurate. I'm also breastfeeding and not sure i'm getting all the nutrients i need and im pretty picky and hate eating anything just because i'm hungery. i know everyone is different, as far as nutrients go. i'm so confused as to what i REALLY need and i want to give my baby and me everything i really need. your info and help is so apprecaited! but still looks like i need more help!!
emily

: : :

[Planta]

Originally Posted by mommaem

im pretty picky and hate eating anything just because i'm hungery. i know everyone is different, as far as nutrients go. i'm so confused as to what i REALLY need and i want to give my baby and me everything i really need.

That's me before discovering the raw concept...

[JaneS]

Some yogurt/kefir starters that worked well for us:

Yogourmet
Traditional acidophilus yogurt. Whole Foods carries it. Hasn't failed me yet.
http://www.lyo-san.ca/english/yogour...ult.htm#sechee
Online: http://www.lucyskitchenshop.com/yogourmet.html#starter

Progurt
Dairy free L. Casei/Bulgaricus/Thermophilus yogurt starter. When used with dairy, cow or goat, makes a very mild tasting yogurt, even if cultured for 24 hrs.
http://www.giprohealth.com/starter.html

Powder kefir starter
Some people say this isn't "real" kefir, but I noticed significant benefits from it.
http://www.mercola.com/forms/kefir.htm

Source for kefir grains and information: Dom's Kefir Insite
http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefirpage.html
Or sometimes you can find an MDC mama to send you some. Mine are dormant for now, I got all oogy about them a while ago and stuck them in back of fridge

[LilithX]

Much of interest here!
I'm a big believer in supplementing the soil (with rock dust, earthworms/castings, good compost, preferably with some sea veggie/weeds thrown in) and growing your own veggies/herbs/fruits. Not so much a believer in supplementing with pills/liquids, etc..

I think remineralization, building up, and general preservation of our planet's soils should be a high priority.

It is disturbing how depleted our soils and the foods grown in them have become, yes, but I am of the opinion that the bulk of nutritional deficiencies arise from the consumption of processed, refined, otherwise inadequate "foods" (most not worthy of the term, imo) to the virtual exclusion of whole, fresh, raw and/or minimally cooked foods.

IME, and based on studies of American dietary patterns, a majority don't come anywhere NEAR the recomended 5 servings of fruits and veggies a day, and that is when a half cup of bottled juice or a serving of ketchup or a few leaves of iceberg lettuce are counted as "servings"!

The amount of minerals needed by the human body are miniscule in terms of bulk/quantity, and even WITH the dramatic depletions being seen, it is quite possible, nigh unavoidable, to get more than enough from a balanced diet of REAL foods. But so much of the food out there is not real.

Not suggesting we wouldn't benefit even more from higher levels, just that I think most of the problem is more related to the typical diet than to depleted levels in fresh produce, JMHO.

Everything I've seen on the physiology of humans indicate we are, physiologically, frugavores,at most, omivores along the lines of the great apes who will consume insects or other small creatures in small amounts along with their leaves and fruits and roots, seeds, etc.

Our teeth, our digestive system (incl. the length and nature of our tract and the ph of our saliva and stomach acids), the fact that we cannot create our own vit C or tolerate large quantities of dietary cholesteral, unlike carnivores, down to the fact that when we drink we SUCK water in, as the herbivores/frugivores do, instead of LAPPING it up as the carnivores do.

Plus, speaking of instincts, how many of us find the idea of hunting and killing an animal with our bare hands and teeth (not that we COULD, not with OUR hands and teeth) and ripping into it raw/still kicking. Or even find raw meat, meat not disguised by cooking and other preparation, palatible? Some might argue we've lost that instinct, but I suspect we never had it.

I agree with Harvey Diamond who once wrote, "Put a toddler in a playpen with an apple and a rabbit. If it eats the rabbit and plays with the apple, I'll buy you a new car."

All JMO and pov. Everyone please feel free to continue eating what you prefer/think best, LOL!

I've really enjoyed reading all the posts/info. Much food for thought

Lilith

[MyLittleWonders]

Can I triple the request for how to figure out what you need as an individual? If blood tests and/or hair analysis isn't necessarily worth the money, are their check-lists or the such that describe how certain defeciencies would affect someone?

[Planta]

LilithX,
:
I couldn't agree more with almost all you said.
Just to add a funny observation: animal products (mainly meat) are often "decorated" and seasoned with plant products, which strongly suggests an instinctive desire to camouflage their true nature. I can't think though of any deserts, for example, decorated with animal teeth, claws, etc.

[JaneS]

Originally Posted by LilithX

Our teeth, our digestive system (incl. the length and nature of our tract and the ph of our saliva and stomach acids), the fact that we cannot create our own vit C or tolerate large quantities of dietary cholesteral, unlike carnivores, down to the fact that when we drink we SUCK water in, as the herbivores/frugivores do, instead of LAPPING it up as the carnivores do.

Plus, speaking of instincts, how many of us find the idea of hunting and killing an animal with our bare hands and teeth (not that we COULD, not with OUR hands and teeth) and ripping into it raw/still kicking. Or even find raw meat, meat not disguised by cooking and other preparation, palatible? Some might argue we've lost that instinct, but I suspect we never had it.

This is fascinating reading, thank you for posting. I don't really want to get into a back and forth debate but wanted to respond to some of your points with the knowledge I have.

The most salient point to me is that most native diets contained raw meat or raw fat, and organ meats too. Or raw seafood.

We don't need plant products for vitamin C, I can't remember the specific gland(s), but organ meats do have it. I'll have to check up on this but I specifically remember reading a story about Native Canadian Indians keeping this information for themselves while colonists died from scurvy.

I do know that the amount of vitamin C that is lost by pasteurization of milk in the U.S. is equal to the entire citrus crop. Just like breastmilk, raw milk contains significant amounts of vitamin C.

Also, I disagree with the fact that we cannot handle large amounts of cholesterol, since native diets contained huge amounts of it with only positive health in the people. If cholesterol was bad, then the African tribes who consumed gallons of milk/day would have died off, instead they had perfect teeth/bones and no heart disease. And so would the Eskimos that ate whale blubber and meat only day in and day out as their staple diet.

Also there are many modern studies which show that people with higher cholesterol numbers do live longer.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Let's get some basics straight.

I'm NOT a fan of supplementing as of right. Therefore I will always put the food groups up, as I'm sure you have noticed.

HOWEVER, I do have no choice but to supplement for selenium as there is no what in the world that I can get enough selenium from my diet year round. While there are fresh brazils that is possible but for the rest of the year, its not.

But the reality is that in this country I simply CANNOT get enough boron or magnesium in my diet, no matter how hard a try. Now, if I could eat as much as a cow does, I might, but even with what my parents call an apetite like a budgie, I put on weight. I feel terrible putting on weight, and right now, have a spare 30 pounds to donate elsewhere. So with the amount I can and do eat, I can't get enough basic minerals. THAT is why I take CAA. That is my bedrock supplement. It gives 150mcg of selenium, but I need more like 300 mcg for my body. So extra brazils go on top of that, and when there are no brazils, one drop of the liquid.

FOR MY SYSTEM I need extra Vitamin C, Vitamin A, EFA's and I take co-Q-10.

And that is pretty much it as a standard.

My aim with this thread is to show you WHY minerals are important and HOW they function in the body.

I do NOT WISH to get into a discussion about whether or not a raw diet is better than a cooked. I am very much an instinctive eater, and I eat cooked food. There are just too many generalisations and people taken personal positions arguing that issue. To me, this thread is about KNOWING the basics of minerals, vitamins, the food sources and then YOU,,,, YOU... have to work out how you are going to get the best out of what you have around you for your health and your family.

So lets keep off pet hobby horses, and deal with the issues intellectually, okay?

Originally Posted by Sirte

But the portion above on yogurt caught my attention. I currently make homemade yogurt and use a store-bought yogurt as a starter. I'm happy with the consistency of the yogurt and taste, but I'd like to be more assured that I'm getting a good probiotic product. So here are my questions (forgive me if they seem completely elementary):

1) I use store-bought yogurt as my starter. Does this mean that the yogurt I make from that store-bought starter is a "waste of time?"

Okay, this is my fault. I don't live in USA. In our country, according to laboratory tests, to start yoghurt from many commercial brands would be a waste of time. However, after that debate raged through papers last year, some new brands have come on the market.

Or were you just saying that eating store-bought yogurt itself is a waste of time.

In our country,up until a year ago, most of the brands weren't worth eating, because by the time they got to the shelf, they no longer had a high level of active probiotics.

I guess I wonder if the fact that I am fermenting my own yogurt for many hours and, hopefully, brewing up good beasties), makes up for the fact that I used store-bought starter.

If your purchaser can guarantee you that your starter is fresh and highly active, there is nothing to stop you making your own, and gradually as time goes on, if you then carry that on from your own, the probiotics will gradually shift to more reflect your environment. After all, once upon a time, yoghurt was a chance article, not dependant upon a commercial starter. Like sourdough bread, people relied on enzymes in healthy animals, in unpasteurised milk to do the work for them. Similarly in the traditional making of cheese, the wonderful flavours and textures were a function of endogenous probiotics in the milk itself.

Unfortunately, if you only have pasteurised milk, you have to get the starter from somewhere.

I wondering whether I'm growing enough good beasties by virtue of the fact that I am fermenting the stuff myself - even if it did start with store-bought stuff which is a "waste of time" if eaten on its own.

: where is goodpapa when you need him? Or should I have said that?

I can only speak for my country, not yours. Which is why everyone needs to investigate the situation in their own country and ask questions of their own suppliers, and make them accountable for standards.

2) The link that you provided above to the easiyo site is confusing me a bit.

Well, it would be. It's a New Zealand company

Can you explain to me what, exactly, it is that I'm looking at here: http://www.easiyo.com/shop/catalog/d...php?cPath=6_13
Those are yogurt starters, right? Are they dry or wet?

This New Zealand starter contains dry milk solids, oiligosaccharides (dietary fibre) hone, natural flavour, and live culture = L. acidophilus, L. Bulgaricus, S. thermophilus, bifidobacteria and L casei. The colour in this one is beet.

I mix it with a litre of room temperature water, shove it into the device on the website which is filled to the baffle with boiling water, and leave it 8 hours.

Piggybacking onto my question 1 above, using a package of this, instead of a store-bought yogurt, as a starter would enhance my chances of having a really good probiotic product when I'm done fermenting my yogurt - is that what you're saying?

In this country, this home made mix, according to tests done last year, gave the best range and quantities of any yoghurt on the market. That doesn't include yoghurt brands come out since then, and the range has exploded since those tests were done.

For me, I'm happy with this yoghurt for now. At some point I intend to experiment with an unflavoured batch already made, and see what happens when I try to make it the way I used to with commercial yoghurt, which I have to admit was hit and miss.

But I like my boysenberry touch in it, so I indulge...

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Originally Posted by Galatea

Do you think that we can rely on our cravings as a guide to what we are deficient in? For example, I crave spinach, mushrooms, berries, and rich meat (ham, pork, beef). I see those listed as positive foods in MT's posts.

When you know what the primary minerals and how they affect the body, in those foods, you have a good idea of analysing why you crave those foods.

For instance, in pregnancy at a certain point, usually when I couldn't sleep at night, I craved unsweeted almost black chocolate. Which was great, becuase to everyone else it tasted such that they left it all for me.

It was my midwife who sat down with me and explained what was in it... (something beginning with th...) that promoted drowsiness. We also went through my other cravings and realised that I was getting low in B's, so I pigged out on my cravings, but also dropped out other foods that interfered with absorption. Even then, I know that probiotics were important for B's so increased those to get the best out of my food.

So our cravings can tell us a lot.

About four years ago, when I was on my annual pate binge, the doc asked me if I had cravings coming up and after thinking about it, I said... "yeah, I think pate's on the list..." (I make my own.) So he whipped out his pad and did a vitamin/mineral check and sure enough my iron was nowhere and my B's while normal were low end.

He gave me a second sheet and said "When you can't stand the thought of pate any more do another one."

The second one had raised all those levels up again.

But at the same time, I also craved brussel sprouts and broccoli and would eat them steamed with garlic/parsley butter.

Anyone looking at that list can see instantly what the cravings were telling my body.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Originally Posted by jessicaSAR

So how long does this "funked out" effect last? This describes me perfectly.

If your headache is hormonally based, then everytime you take tylenol, you will end up with a rebound headache, becuase it switches off the glutathione pathway, which increases the hormone that causes the headache, so you need to either switch to another that doesn't use glutathione pathway ? codeine? or get to the root of the hormonal headaches, and that can be done nutritionally...

To understand those you need to read Ellen Grant's "Sexual Chemistry" and John Lee's "What your Doctor may not tell you about premenopause: Balance your hormones and your life from Thirty to Fifty" He goes into eostrogen dominant headaches in detail, as does Ellen, but they do it in different ways. Both need to be understood before choices are made.

[Gale Force]

Originally Posted by MyLittleWonders

Can I triple the request for how to figure out what you need as an individual? If blood tests and/or hair analysis isn't necessarily worth the money, are their check-lists or the such that describe how certain defeciencies would affect someone?

Haven't read the whole thread : and I owe MT an email about my status :

But I have been doing a lot of reading on mineral testing and it appears that in the case of most minerals, you need to have your red blood cells tested, not a whole blood (serum) test. Here's one:

Metametrix Erythrocytes

The biggest exception is magnesium. A urinary challenge test is the standard in the medical research. I haven't found a company yet, but I'll report back when I do.

The other thing to keep in mind is that your blood cells regenerate faster than some of the other cells in your body. For instance, you might begin to treat a zinc deficiency for your depression but your brain levels of zinc will respond much slower than your blood levels. Your blood levels should be a decent measure regardless unless you began a major diet or supplement change in the last few months.