Why are so many AP families low income? - Page 2

[sadie_sabot]

This is a good thread. I always assume(d) most AP folks actually were doing pretty well, financially. either that, or weren't doing that well, but by choice (ie, choosing to have one parent stay at home=having one parent with enough of an income to support a family). I think that's because it seems to me that many of the folks who practice AP come from educated backgrounds, and for the most part in this country educated=somewhat financially solvent.

To ignore or disagree with your pediatrician and the 'experts", you've got to have information resources and self-esteem resources--which tend to be in short supply for truly poor folks. And it's such a cryin' shame, seeing poor women formula feeding because they don't have the resources (info, support, access to a LC) to breastfeed.

as for all the gear, well, we spent $50 on a sling. Car seat was a gift, stoller (unused so far, heh) too. What else is there? Oh yeah, breast pump-- a loaner. We can't make it on dp's income because he's public school teacher. go figure; that should be a profession you can raise a family on!

I'm ranting a little...but one more thing...i also assume those of us here on these boards have some level of financial advantage just 'cause we're here. I'd be willing to bet few if any of us are using the computer at a library...although it did jut occur to me some of us probably do this at work...

In my opinion, capitalism is a bad, bad, system, where human needs take a back seat to greed. But we are all stuck living under it, and until that changes I do try not to be harsh towards folks with more money, as long as they behave like humans.

[simonee]

You may want to check a very longstanding thread in the Good Eating forum, where the members' household incomes are polled. Instead of a "normal" bell curve, with most replies in the middle section, there is a bit of an inversion going on, with many members either reporting low or high incomes.

I tend to believe it has to do with a relative lack of materialism, but also with the affordability of APing (making place in your own bed costs less than a crib, bf'ing is much cheaper than formula), so many less wealthy people probably AP before they're aware of it. And the "rich" section is often well-educated and well-informed, and maybe arrives at AP through a more anthropological perspective.

PS I don't mean to generalize here. I myself don't fit in my scheme at all, for example I just love the clarity of extreme simplification, whether it makes sense or not LOL

[MamaOui]

I tend to believe it has to do with a relative lack of materialism, but also with the affordability of APing (making place in your own bed costs less than a crib, bf'ing is much cheaper than formula), so many less wealthy people probably AP before they're aware of it. And the "rich" section is often well-educated and well-informed, and maybe arrives at AP through a more anthropological perspective

With all due respect Simonee, I know many low income people who are educated and informed who made the choice to AP based on research and the desire to do what is *best* for their family emotionally. Part of my choice to AP is to do so by being a stay at home mom and that is far from affordable.

I'm ranting a little...but one more thing...i also assume those of us here on these boards have some level of financial advantage just 'cause we're here. I'd be willing to bet few if any of us are using the computer at a library...although it did jut occur to me some of us probably do this at work...

sadie_sabot, I think *financial advantage* is a relative term. Maybe some of us who have computers are sacraficing in other ways in order to have a computer or our computers are necessary for work purposes at home. I cannot use a computer at a library, because I do not have a car to drive to the library and it is far too far to walk. My dh uses our car every day to take him to and from work.

[kerikadi]

I think it's because AP families only have one income whereas most American families with small children have two. It is more important to be with my children then to have a new SUV and get my nails done. I know many families need two incomes to survive but I don't see that very often, many families can get by with one if they are willing to make the sacrifices. Everyone in my AP group either works part time or stays home, that will definitely put a crunch on the wallet.

Keri

[nuggetsmom]

I have noticed that attitude in general about money, not just among parents. I work with a lot of people who are basically underpaid (as am I) but DH has a high paying job so I can afford to stay in this job (and yes, I am the evil mother who loves her work and sends her precious to daycare so she can!) and I also get the impression that I should be embarresed by our "wealth". Well, DH and I worked very hard to be where we are. We deserve what we have, and I think that some of these other people (that I work with) could get a higher paying job if they wanted to. Well, actually now it is pretty hard, but I have been offered higher paying jobs recently and didnt' take them because I would have to cummute and work FT. So I am making concessions to motherhood (as well I should).
We made a lot of sacrifices too, before we had DD. We worked 80-100 hour weeks and I had extra jobs. NOw we don't have to anymore. But I still pinch pennies like there is no tomorrow. So did my parents and so did my grandparents. THey are all well off. You don't get wealthy by spending your money. Yet we are very generous with our famlies and charities. Society needs people who are better off. We are the ones who are paying the bills, we are the ones who can donate to charity. I work two or three hours a day to pay taxes. Of course some of that is wasted on a war machine and pointless bombing missions, but some of it goes to good things!

And yes, I often get the impression that I shouldn't have this money, that I am looked down upon by my SIL's who don't have it. Who think I got it easily or something. It is frustrating but it just is.

[DiaperDiva]

I also agree more families can get by with only one parent working, you just have to be able to manage with less.

We make a monthly, sometimes weekly budget on Mark's UIB, and do well. We don't do luxuries, but on occasion do rent a movie.

I like that we make less, because to me, it means we have more

[artgirl]

our story is that I made more money than dh... until dd came along and I felt the INTENSE need to stay home with her at least part time. I cut my hours at work back to 28 and now... maybe we are poor but I feel rich.

[sohj]

I think I go along with Benjismom and other who stress anti-consumer-culture. Though there IS a consumer culture of "organic everything". I'm pretty anti-consumer culture.

(Tale of myself: several years ago, my then MIL, now deceased, was visiting and kind of hit me over the head with her culture of consuming...she was a true shopaholic: she bought things, left them in the bag w/ the receipt and put the whole thing in the closet, after her death, we gave them, still wrapped but w/o the embarrassing receipts from Needless Markup and other dept. stores, to a battered women's shelter...and in response I kind of went insane about advertising in my home. I cut up all t-shirts w/ a logo on them into rags, scraped logos off pencils with my pen knife [and tried to find a way to remove the cross from the swiss army knife, but then decided it was a national symbol, not a logo] and decided to only use baking soda on my teeth because toothpaste was a plot by a pharmaceutical industry that I wanted no part of. This only lasted three or four years.)

but, I am working and pumping at work...borrowed a pump from someone who doesn't need it at the moment. I know a lot of people say that they want to stay at home with the child, but what I'd like to do is take my child with me to my work. I really, really love what I do and I am good at it, so I benefit others. Maybe, someday, I'll have my own company and I can take my son along when he wants. I get to go to all kinds of interesting places: subway tunnels, wastewater treatment plants, all the things that make a city work. In the preindustrial society, the child/ren were always with a family member as they worked. It was natural and that was one of the main ways people learned. It feels so artificial to separate work and learning from life.

by the way, I do (cough, cough) drive a mercedes...but it is a 1984 and I bought it for a pittance as it is a diesel (which no one wants, apparently) and I am in the process of converting it to BIODIESEL, so I really can be anti-commercial.

[SoHappy]

By local standards, dh and I are poor, with three people and two big dogs surviving on a public school teacher's salary in an expensive ("third least affordable" in the nation, according to polls)area. And I know our friends think of us as poor, but they don't understand that our choices (bf, cheap cars, cloth diapers, used furniture, shopping at garage sales, etc.)aren't based on money, but on values. We don't believe in debt or wasteful practices. We try to honor the earth. We like to walk. We don't put fake foods in our bodies. We live within our means and our only debt is our house. This has put us in a position to be low-income, but with a relatively high net worth.

It still blows me away that WE can find money to donate to good causes when people who make three times what we do "can't afford" to support causes they believe in.

So, to get back on topic, my personal feeling is that money itself is not bad or superficial, but spending it all on useless crap and ignoring your family so you can get more is. I admire those who can be AP and still make a good and honest living.

[heartmama]

I have known many struggling ap families, and in most cases, the financial problems would have been alleviated if both parents worked. And because of ap, one parent (usually mom) did not work.

I think ap demands a diminished priority on money and material wealth. You must spend time with a baby to build an attachment. And time with a baby means unpaid time. And that, of course, can impact your finances.

So I do think there is a relationship between ap and finanicial difficulties.

As far as the dilemma in the OP, I probably would not mention your maid or expensive vacations to your financially struggling friends, unless they ask. There is really no need to bring it up in mixed comany anyway. Likewise, it is wrong for them to freak if they do find out--but I doubt they would unless they were really insecure people. However, one positive thing you could do is to keep an ear out for ways you could help other moms you meet in the group. If you have extra baby clothes, a sling, whatever, I would offer it to a mom who might need it. If you buy organic produce, you might know a mom who would appreciate your buying extra for her on occasion. Some people dislike "charity". But personally, I was always ecstatic to get freebies and hand me downs, especially when we were really struggling financially. Just ask and see if there are ways you can help.

Heartmama

[casmi]

Originally posted by bebesho2
I believe many AP families may be lower income b/c one parent stays home by choice so they take a big financial burden sometimes there.

ITA with this statement. WE'd be a heack of alot richer if I didn't stay at home with the kiddos.

We are by no means poor. My DH has a great job. We are definately middle class, and around our circle of friens and family have ALOT more $ and assets than them.

[simonee]

MamaOui, me too! We're poor and informed ~ in a way we chose to be poor

[USAmma]

I have not read the posts yet but great question. I just wanted to respond that for our family at least, I think that growing up low income helped to build character in me, and made me realize what were the most important things in life. Those are things that money can't buy.

Dh and I both are college educated and could be making a good income, but I chose to stay at home with dd. We are not lower income but we are close. Have to count every dime to stay out of debt, but our needs are being met and I'm happy with our life. Sure I can't afford to send my child to the montessori school down the street, but I can give her a personalized homeschooled education. I can't buy her all the newest interactive toys, but I can interact with her myself. I can't buy her the latest fashions but I can teach her about recycling by buying cute clothes from thrift stores.

I really think that some people (a lot of people) in our culture think the holy grail is wealth. But I see it as family, and we are intentionally sacrificing material comforts, our retirement savings, perhaps even our child's college fun that we can't build up very fast, in order to raise her the way we feel is best for us.

This is in NO way a slam to working moms. I know you work either because you love your job or because you need the money, not because you are in pursuit of endless wealth.

Darshani

[sadie_sabot]

Originally posted by nuggetsmom
DH and I worked very hard to be where we are. We deserve what we have, and I think that some of these other people (that I work with) could get a higher paying job if they wanted to. ..Society needs people who are better off. We are the ones who are paying the bills, we are the ones who can donate to charity.

Nuggetsmom, I'm finding some of what you have to say on this very challenging.

Please try not to take this personally. But, if all it took to 'deserve' good things was working hard, well, many more people deserve good things/ good life than have them. My dad's grandparents were coal miners...they worked hard, died poor. The guy who cleans the bathrooms in the building I work in, he works hard, gets paid little, and has very low status. Hard work is needed to get ahead, but it's not the only thing needed.

Wealthier people may be paying the bills, but poor people are doing most of the work and bearing most of the weight. Some examples are, think of the people who pick the lettuce in your salad, or the person who washes the dishes at the restaurant (grueling work). Or the public school teacher, or the grocery store checker. all of those people work really hard. what do they deserve? And many of the truly wealthy in this country accumulated their wealth off of the sweat of underpaid labor.

anyway i bring this up because i think it has to do with why folks with a bit more sometimes feel like others are hostile. I think it happens because often the folks who have a bit more don't really know what life is for folks who have less or none.

Respectfully,

Sadie

[AvalonDaughter]

"But I also think most of us are smart enough to know that not everyone who is well off got that way by neglecting their kids. "



I think it riles me up too about assuming a woman goes back to work to drive a Lexus!

I am capable of making twice as much as DH. We struggle so much with what to do! It has been such a difficult decision. I don't want to go back to work full time and DH does not want me to either but it is the cold hard facts of the situaiton that i can make more with less effort (i.e. one person works instead of two or one person works instead of DH and eating up our savings).

I hate it! We are planning to be pg this year and the thought of going back to work full time while being pg the puming at work etc. It is awful and not any fun. I would love to continue to stay home and am fighting to find a way to make money and do so.!!!

And no it is not to drive a Lexus. I wish we could afford organic everything too.

[morgan's_mom]

This is kind of OT, but I do think this issue has been alluded to, and as one who WOH and is probably objectively "financially advantaged," it's a point I want to make. I see a lot of judgments passed about a family's ability to live on one income (sort of an "if you really want to stay home, you can" attitude), but I just want to point out that it is not always possible to gauge a family's ability to make it work without mom's income by looking at the exterior.

In my situation, I would LOVE to be able to stay home more than anything. But my husband is a self-employed real estate developer. When we moved here 1.5 years ago, he refocused his business to this area, which meant abandoning the market he was so familiar with and learning a new one, which meant a delay in income while he was starting up his business here. Being self-employed (particularly in a volatile business like real estate) means that you don't know when your next "paycheck" is coming in. And while he has had some very successful projects even in the short time we've been here, we must reinvest a lot of his income into other projects in order to further develop his business. Also, we are in the process of buying a substantial number of rental properties (income from which will hopefully replace my salary), and having W-2 income (which mine is - his is all cap gains) is important to being able to qualify for good loans to purchase rental properties.

My salary pays our mortgage, our car payments, my student loan payments (over $50,000), and my credit card debt (from my irresponsible days). We *know* it's going to be there every month. Granted, my salary is substantial, which means we are able to live a comfortable lifestyle, service the amount of debt we carry, and still manage to save some.

If it were a matter of eating PB&J for dinner every night or cutting out dinners out, it would be a no-brainer. (Although I do think it is very wise to take into consideration savings, life insurance, etc. I think many people simply worry about making ends meet rather than the big picture.) But for many families, depending on their debt load, line of work, it's so much more than that. For us, it simply does not make good financial sense for me to stop working until we are at a point where we have a substantial amount of money saved, and that is most likely to happen if I continue to work and pay the majority of the monthly expenses so that we can save or reinvest cash that my husband brings in. It is particularly important to us for me to know when I stop working that I never have to go back to work, because it is important to us that I home educate our children.

I guess my point is that it is not possible to judge, from the outside looking in, whether someone could manage to SAH or not (nor is it really any of anyone's business). I don't want it to come across like I'm defending the fact that I WOH - I'm comfortable with it and I don't think my child is any less attached than children of SAHM's are - but I did want to explain my situation to show that it's not all as black and white as "if you really wanted to SAH, you could." I mean, I suppose I could insist that my husband quit doing what he loves and is good at and go get a job at McDonald's, and we could sell our cars and move into a one-bedroom apartment, but that just doesn't make any sense to me given that the alternative in my case is for me to work for another 1-2 years and then be able to stay home for the rest of my life, in a comfortable environment, without the financial worries that I saw my parents struggle with and stress over when I was growing up.

[OnTheFence]

Well, here is my take on the subject.
Most the AP natural parenting moms I know are mothers who are staying at home and have very young children. Some fell into this type of parenting by accident. They breastfed and cloth diapered for economical reasons, and some of the other things fell into place on accident -- like cosleeping and sling wearing. It was just easier.
I was so anti-family bed but very pro breastfeeding when I had my daughter. I also was breastfeeding because we could not have afforded formula and we did not qualify for WIC. We started cosleeping because we all slept better and I was tired of getting up and getting her out of the bassinet. It was hard to move around with that csection scar!

[mama2girls]

A couple of comments. First the Lexus driver--obviously her priorities are a bit different from many of the mothers on this board. As a great woman I once knew said, "Different is not bad or good, it's only different."

Secondly, from a post a ways back: "That's partly what got me thinking about it because I didn't really care that much about money until I got into AP and now I WISH that I had more so hubby could be home more, we could put our kids in organic cotton clothes, buy only organic food, send them to great private schools, build a house that is more "green," etc."

I wasn't aware that buying organic and living in a "green" home were indicators of AP. I think often that cd and bf go with those sorts of housekeeping, but imho, AP is about listening to your children and doing what is best for them keeping in mind their wants and needs instead of just your own. If I choose not to cd does that make me less AP than a person who does? Is it a set of tangible items that define one as AP or a set of beliefs?

Finally (and then i'll climb down off of the box), it is possible to have a spouse who is employeed as one of those reprehensible lawyers or doctors and still be AP. As a spouse of a lawyer I'll let you in on a little secret. Law school and med school are expensive. Our school loans total more than our (decent) house. It's going to take 20 YEARS to pay them off. Our finances have had little bearing on our parenting style.

And we thank you for your support...

[DebraBaker]

I've been both ways.

When I had my older children we were *extremely* poor, poorer than you might imagine.

I breastfed because I knew it was best *and* because it was free. My MIL actually pushed to have us put our firstborn up for adoption because "you can't afford the formula" I kept saying I was breastfeeding but she kept assuring me I wouldn't be able to :

Anyway, I BF and used cloth diapers and lived very simply and we, in spite of our poverty, were able to live on one income (plus dh worked side jobs)

I would say the majority of poor women don't AP and don't use renewable rsources like cloth diapers. I was the only woman I knew who either breastfed or used cloth diapers. I couldn't believe the poor women who would beg relatives and strangers for money to buy these unnecessary things for their babies (or the fact that everyone else considered them necessities!!)

I learned to rely upon natural partially because I was too darn poor to afford to take my children to the doctor.

I wished I could buy organics but I could bearly afford to feed conventional food and organics were a wish.

Slowly we became middle class and are, by some standards, upper-middle (dh makes in the '$80's) but we have five children living at home and three more grown (but not quite gone if you know what I mean) and I am so very blessed that I can stay home to mother my children. We will become normal by the local standards (we live in an affluent suburb) when I work, even part time.

As it is, we live well below our means so I can stay home and we can not worry about paying for a big house or fancy cars. We can take the kids skiing and on vacation a couple times/year. I can do the little things money can't buy.

Simonee, I have also noticed the strange demographics of Mothering's families. WE seem to be either *poor* or *affluent* without much representation in the middle.

I think we likely have either made the choice to live very simply instead of having the two incomes and middle class lifestyle *or* we've become affluent with the luxury of making AP friendly lifestyle choices.

I remember reading a biography of Loisa May Alcott and she noted that her family lived in "genteel poverty" I believe this is the choice of many AP families.

Debra Baker

[3boys4us]

I think we likely have either made the choice to live very simply instead of having the two incomes and middle class lifestyle *or* we've become affluent with the luxury of making AP friendly lifestyle choices.

I like to think of it as how we define success. Do we define success as the fancy house with the luxury car/SUV and the lifestyle that goes with them (including the hours worked and the nanny/maid to spend time with the kids) or do we define success as a happy well adjusted family?

I admit to being predjudicial on this - IMO a happy family is more successful.

DB - Little House books are also a great eye opener as to past American lifestyles.