People who talk the talk but don't walk the walk...

[candiland]

I cannot help but be a bit confused by some women I know. I know a few women who seem - on the outside, at least - to be very similar to me. Growing their hair long, loving the "jam band" scene, eating and living responsibly... you know the type. Two of these girls are getting married this year, and naturally, they talk about having babies. And lemme tell ya something... "Epidural! Epidural! Why would anyone have kids without an EPIDURAL?" One girl even said to me, "I don't think my body can HAVE a baby. I'll probably just get a c-section."
Now, these comments would make more sense if they were mainstream in other areas of their lives, as well. But to see these women put so much faith in our d*mn patriarchal, money-hungry, slicing, dicing hospital system IS DRIVING ME MAD!!! When the time comes, I plan on giving them lots of informative books and videos, but I can't believe it's even going to come to that!
How these "alternative" women view birthing babies is horrifying to me. Has anyone had similar experiences with this sort of thing?

[OceanMomma]

I think the problem runs far deeper than alternative vs mainstream ways of doing things. I really think that the FEAR of childbirth has been engrained into our society so well & the whole normalcy of having a baby in hopsital with all the drugs that women just go with the flow. Personally I cannot see, after 2 awesoem natural childbirths, why anyone would want to go any other way. However, I have been made to feel like a freak for years as I managed to do it ( note emphasis on managed ). Like there is something wrong with me coz I had natural childbirths.

What cinched it for me was being lent spiritual midwifery when I was a pg teenager. I had had so many women telling me how bad childbirth was & how it was the most horrible thing in their lives blah blah. Then I got lent this book & it changed my life. I have lent it to many of my pg friends. Some read it & some didn't. I think it depends what you are looking for. If your whole mindset is in the hospital, with the specialist & the epidural. No amount of spiritual midwifery is gonna make a difference, no matter how alternative you may be in other areas. Point in case, one of my friends recently had a baby. She paid extra to get a specialist ( prenatal care is free in this country ) who was gonna be there the whole birth. I lent her my complement of natural birthing books. She didn't even read them. Come birth time, she went into labour quite fine, went to hospital, the specialist showed up, gave her some pitocin "to speed things up" - no medical reason btw - she had an epidural & had the baby. She did not feel ripped off, she didn't even realise what a crock it all was. So yeah, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

[bunny's mama]

but sometimes, oceanmomma, you can lead the horse to water and it DOES choose to drink on it's own.

my college roomie called to tell me she was pg, and the very first thing out of her mouth after that was "i'm gonna get MY epidural the first time i feel ANYTHING. i can't deal with ANY pain." well, through the course of her pregnancy, i gently convinved her to look into getting a doula. she hooked up with a wonderful woman who was skilled in hypnobirthing and masage. i also reccommended she read some books, and she did read them. she just gave birth last week to a healthy baby boy, and altho she DID indeed take the pit and the epidural, she waited longer into her labor than she'd ever thought she would, and she really worked hard un-drugged for the first third of her labor. not how i would do it for myself, but a really big step for her. she even took the pit and then said she wanted to wait and see if she needed the epi, which she only got an hour later when the pit surges became unbearable. i feel really proud of how hard sh eworked, and i know my "leading her to water" had a lot to do with the changes (altho they may seem trivial to some, because she still took the drugs) she made in her attitude.

yes, there is a HUGE societal problem with how birth is portrayed just about everywhere. and i try my best to open friends up to other options, but then i just let it go. i am admitedly terrified for any of my pg friends who have an OB (instead of MW) and are planning a hospital birth. but you can't force the issue.


edited to add: argh. my pregnancy brain forgot the whole point of this post. my friend (above) is thte TOTAL natural, crunchy granola type. her mom nursed her til she was 4 and she was raised a total natural hippie nakey child. there's just no telling.

[velveeta]

There is definitely no telling by looking, that's for sure. I have always grown up with the notion that "natural" childbirth was really the only way to do it. You could either do Lamaze or... not.

My mother was a nurse and a childbirth educator. And she nursed all of us (5 kiddos) to 2 or 3 (or 4 in the case of my sister!).

Having said that, you would never know that my mother and I both feel very strongly about BF, co-sleeping, CD, vax and all of that. We "look" very mainstream. We love current fashions and getting manicures! None of my friends would *suspect* that I am having a home waterbirth, and that I will be working through my pain with prayer and shared meditations. Shhhh! It's private!

You never know where hidden crunchy girls are lurking!


Jean

[Pigpen]

Before I got pregnant I "knew" I would have a scheduled C section and breastfeeding just seemed gross to me. Well when the time came, I started really thinking about it. I had a friend who had a home birth and she really influenced me. I ended up having son #1 in a free-standing birth center and son #2 was a home water birth. I nursed my first till he was ready to quit at just over 3 years of age. My second is going strong at 2 years old. I can't believe my mind changed so drastically. As a side note, like you, I was and still am into "jam bands" though not into the scene. I've always considered myself earthy and natural but at first when I thought of childbirth I was just scared, scared, scared! Gee, I wonder why? My homebirth friend was the ONLY person I ever talked to who said anything positive about the birth experience. Maybe you can be that person to your friends.

[cottonwood]

Yeah, start talking NOW -- not as in being preachy of course, but just sharing your experience and how YOU feel about it. Hey, you are perfectly allowed to get into the conversation too! You don't have to wait to be asked -- did they?

Anyway. I don't know too many crunchy granola looking-types, live in the wrong area I guess. But when I do meet them I have the same assumptions which turn out to be false -- for some it really is just a style thing, rather than a philosophy of life. A while back I was talking to a pregnant woman working in the Birkenstock store, she's the classic earth mother looking-type, and I ask her what her plans are for the birth and am shocked when she says that she's going to keep her options open and might get an epidural. I said something about the risks associated with it and she waves me off with an "oh, I trust my doctor." I did manage to get her interested in checking out Henci Goer's book. But yeah, you really just never know.

I myself am not very crunchy at all. A friend gave me a bunch of hippie birth books, which I glanced at for maybe half a second before putting them in the closet and going back to my beloved WTEWYE. But, unbeknownst to me a seed was planted, and it was a BIG seed. (Thank you Donna! ) I'm still not very crunchy in style, but my babies have all had relatively gentle, undrugged births, and we are all intact.

( at heart )

[tinyshoes]

Oh, candiland, I sympathize...but I don't know if your friends are really walkin' the walk and NOT talkin' the talk......sound to me like they're pretty consistant!

They're uneducated about birth options, they probably all have lovely OB/GYN's that they've been going to, they're at the mercy of mainstream birth culture (like watching eduational TLC progamming,) and they're talking about getting instant c-sections and epidurals...and that's just what they'll walk.

But I know what you mean....people who are crunchy for the 'real' reasons, like I don't want to fill my body with poisons, be it food or Advil or whatever, should also be the people who don't want to be pumped full of buvicaine or whatever the heck it is they put in epidurals.

As suggested, BE that crunchy, knowledgable voice to your friends....lord knows I AM, and after introducing my best gal pal to the concept of DOULA, she has been able to make all sorts of 'crunchy' choices that ARE what she wants (not just what I WANT her to want! ) because with a little exposure to doulas and some Dr. Sears books, she's making her own way.

And though I'm lil' miss homebirth, she's trumping me w/ a waterbirth (in hospital), go figure. And I was so scared back in her pre-preggo days when she talked about how much she liked her lady OB/GYN....but it didn't do me OR her any good to say, well, that sucks. I just nudged and said, hey, doulas are cool....

And one thing you can GUARANTEE capitalize on is the dreaded episiotomy!!!! Because the labor-fearing, c-section loving ladies out there who want their epis, do NOT WANT their crotches cut, which will happen if they are lucky enough to be one of the 90% of first-time moms in the USA who get the Royal Treatment.

That's a GOOD bargaining chip to promote midwifery, even medwifery...and lord knows I LOVE telling people that none of the homebirthing midwives I interviewd had EVER, EVER done an episiotomy. These chicks know crotch-cutting isn't normal or cool, no matter how in love with their dashing OB/GYN's they may be....and of course, you'll tell them to look out for the 'I only do epis when neccessary' clause!!!

And of course, once these c-sec lovers ARE knocked up, a prettily wrapped copy of The Thinking Woman's Guide will be much appriciated,.....would any of your friends want to be thought of as UNTHINKING? They'll read the book, and get a bit on insight.

Be gentle; your friends have NO IDEA what the heck they are even TALKING about. Give them some parallels....Big Tobacco - formula industry. McDonald's....modern OB practice in the USA. Be creative!!! Keep us posted!!! Tell us their usernames once you've done your duty and turned them into homebirthing, hypnobirthing, waterbirthing, lotusbirthing divas!!!

[velveeta]

Originally posted by tinyshoes
Because the labor-fearing, c-section loving ladies out there who want their epis, do NOT WANT their crotches cut, which will happen if they are lucky enough to be one of the 90% of first-time moms in the USA who get the Royal Treatment.

:LOL :LOL :LOL :LOL :LOL :LOL :LOL

I *know* this isn't funny. It's just the way you said it! So true!!


Jean

[tinyshoes]

*blush*

Tee-hee, that WAS kinda funny!!! Sorry to be so crass, but hey--I'm just pointing out the inconsistancy that goes on in people's minds when they don't have all the facts. (What about that 'shave' you get FREE w/ every c/sec? That's another bargining chip, effective with the same set.)

[Mommiska]

I just wanted to say that your friends may change once they are pregnant...

When I was in college, whenever we talked about having babies, I KNEW I was going to have an epidural and all the pain relief going! I never really questioned that until I got pregnant myself.

Then I started reading everything there was to read about pregnancy, labour, etc. (including What to Expect When you are Expecting, unfortunately). I never did have a 'hippy' childbirth book, but the more I read 1) the more afraid I became of epidurals and 2) the more convinced I was that I didn't want any kind of drugs going into my unborn baby...especially during labour.

So...people can change. I changed on my own, so if you give a little gentle advice/alternative viewpoints, who knows where your friends will be mentally when they do finally give birth to their own children.

[mamallama]

Yep. A good friend of mine is dreaming of her epidural as we speak. This is her second baby. She doesn't believe me when I talk about cascading interventions. Her OB has convinced her that I'm selfish and irresponsible...basically we just don't talk about it anymore. I remain open to discussing modern maternity options (complete with studies and research to cite!) any time.

It does make me crazy, but what can I do? I can preach until my face is blue, but nobody likes that. I try to remain available, and I ask pesky questions. Like when my friend said her OB does episiotomies "only when she has to," I asked how often she "has to" My friend acted offended, but I think she saw my point.

I have found that the older I get the less radical my personal style becomes and the more radical my personal philosophy becomes. Handmade dresses and embroidered tops don't fit into my budget anymore. I do, however, take responsibility for my own life and the lives of my kids in a way that, when I was younger, I never expected to. It's easy to dress in an unconventional way. It's a lot harder to make unconventional choices regarding heathcare.

[applejuice]

I agree. I was raised as a vegetarian in an upper middleclass neighborhood and attended a Catholic School. I learned really fast not to rock the boat and tell anyone about homebirthing. I was the oldest of 8 of 9 born at home, so I rarely said anything about it to anyone. My mom also breast fed all of us and we were not vaxed either. I know how to keep my mouth quiet and just watch the world go by.

It is really no one's business anyway.

I remember seeing many of my "alternative lifestyle" pals who decided to go "organic" in the local healthfood store. I would quietly buy my raw milk, vitamins and organic vegetables and fruits and listen to their tales of woe as they bragged about their delivery at the local hospital.

I remember attending a Mommy and Me class. I signed up for it b/c I wanted to watch my dd and ds in a school environment play w/ other children and schmooze w/ other moms in a non-threatening place. Well, I was the only mother who did not have a c-section in that class. I am 5'0" and weighed only 110# before both pregnancies, so it is not that I have built to have babies.

My mindset is just such that I know what my body can do and it does it. Labor is such a mind trip!

[applejuice]

To mamallama:

How is it that the OB thinks YOU are selfish?

HE is selfish - HE is the one getting paid!

You do not stand to benefit in any way from her delivery no matter what she decides. HE doe$!

All $.O.B.'s do.

[Pigpen]

This isn't totally on topic but it reminds me of a funny story along the lines of talking the talk but not walking the walk. My friend was a hippie prototype. She drove the VW bus, had the hippie clothes. When she visited a friend at Berkeley someone approached them, as they looked the type, and offered them Jerry Garcia Band tickets, her response was "Is he any good?". The girl had deadhead stickers all over her bus, cause that's what all good hippies do! Now she's about as soccer mom as they come.

[Peppamint]

Definitely recommend Henci Goer's book! I wanted a homebirth, but because dh was not crazy about the idea I almost gave into a hospital birth again. After reading TTWGTABB... I decided I had to be my own advocate.

It may sound weird to mainstream moms, but the thing about the hospital I fear most is another lithomy position pushing, episiotomy birth. NO way I ever want cut again. Man oh man, I wish that OB had let me tear the first time.

Anyway... I alway knew I would bf, but said no way I'd nurse a toddler. Well, I nursed dd and decided that I'd go the child-led weaning route. She weaned at 20m, probably because I was preggo again... but I was fully prepared to tandem nurse! Also I swore I'd never let a baby sleep in my bed (I thought it was dangerous : ). Live and Learn... my 2yo still sleeps with us!

I have a friend whom I'm afraid is going to be the ff, ezzo type, but she isn't preggo again yet (we were due 1.5 wks apart and she m/c early on) so I'm hoping she'll see me bf'ing, cd'ing and slinging ds and will be interested to know more! inky

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is be a good example... for what it's worth it might plant a seed for them.

PS- I wear makeup and have shoulder length straight hair (I'm lazy!). I love Eddie Bauer shirts with jeans... so I guess I look like a soccer mom except I have a kid hanging off my boob and carry a Land's End diaper bag full of WAHM diapers!

[mamallama]

To mamallama:

How is it that the OB thinks YOU are selfish?

Well, apparently this OB isn't very well read, or else she disbelieves the numerous studies that show planned homebirth to be at least as safe as hospital birth. You know, a "don't confuse me with the facts--my mind is all ready made up" kind of thing. Or more likely, she has dollar signs in her eyes.

The $OB (I love it!) told my friend that I valued a "nice experience" over the health & very life of my baby, therefore I must be selfish and irresponsible. That reasoning stings me so much because I chose homebirth specifically for its safety. And I take way, way more responsibility for my own & my family's health than that OB probably does....

Why, oh why do they present it as an either/or thing, when it's clearly NOT!?!

I'm feeling ranty and veering off topic.

[candiland]

How we moms ever manage to stay ON topic is what I'd like to know... :

[applejuice]

I feel that I really have nothing more to prove to anyone. I walk the walk - talk the talk ...just leave me alone to do my own thing.

I had my beautiful children at home, bf'ed them, no vaxing, fed them healthy according to my conscience and knowledge, dressed them, and taught them as best that I could. I made the decisions that I could live with and I do.

There are very important experts out there who feel that they know what is very correct for me, but they will not live with the consequences. I would have lived with the very bad results of their decisions - all alone.

I am just happy that everything has worked out as well as it has for me. I have few regrets.

Everyone needs to use the head that G-d gave them and think and learn. Stop queuing up for everything. Do not be a sheep.

What angers me also is that these so called experts will fight with every tool they have to maintain the status quo. They will turn in any doctor or midwife who does homebirths or find an excuse to harass a parent who does not vax their child. They will also fight to get legislation passed to justify their stand as for the common good.

[crayon]

I found that the shock to me was my own mom. She always had herb books around had her herb garden had the long hair and was proud of her hippy background.
But when the time came last summer that I found out I was pregnant, I handed her a pamphlet from my midwives telling her all about them. She looked at me shocked, like I had gone nuts. I have found that in my 9 months of pregnancy my mom has been extremely difficult to convince that our son (should we have one) will stay intact, that we are educating ourselves on vaccinations and not pumping our kid up with everything, we are cloth diapering and she just cant see the reason why I would want to do “all that laundry”. It has been very hard to deal with people when you want to birth natural and raise your kids natural. It is like people think it is normal to be hooked up to drugs and be cut open and be separated form their babies. The funny thing is if you were to see me on the street you would never think I was the homebirth type, the cloth diaper type or anything “natural”. I guess it goes to show you cant judge a book by the cover, my mom looks hippy and I look modern and here I am fighting for my right to be natural!

[applejuice]

Crayon: You have nothing to prove to anyone; you walk the walk and talk the talk.

You live the wonderful life. You are real.

Other people are hypocrits.