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People who talk the talk but don't walk the walk... - Page 2

post #21 of 51
I just wanted to add that in many circles of upper middle class women, the Caesarean Section, the coup de gras and raison d'etre of the obstetrical profession, is considered the very classy and proper way to give birth.

It is very clean and highly dramatic.

In the 1960's my mom told me that a doctor who delivered a mother this way was guaranteed a patient for life since the woman would have complete faith in him for future diagnoses and procedures including a hysterectomy and oophrenectomy and mastectomy.

Nowadays, w/ managed care this may not be true, but many women will still have faith in the practitioner or the "group" he works for .
post #22 of 51
This trend towards choosing a planned, but unnecessary, c-section really angers me. When my first child was born, I pushed for nearly five hours with little progress and had a double episiotomy after I started hemorrhaging. It was not the natural birth experience I had envisioned. With my next child, I changed both drs. and hospitals, and again found myself pushing for over two hours before my ob apologized profusely and said that I would need a c-section. My last child was also a c-section, admittedly planned but also medically necessary. I thought I would miss the anticipation that comes from those first labor pains, but instead I started contracting and dilating at 34 weeks and got to experience the show and all the joys of initial labor for several weeks before the actual delivery. I don't feel that my ob was overly anxious to perform a c-section; in fact, she encourages VBAC and, even with this last pregnancy, she studied my records very carefully before deciding that a VBAC simply wasn't an option. My c-sections weren't a neat, easy alternative. I bled just as much as I had with my vaginal delivery and was very aware that the surgery put both me and my sons at more risk than the average vaginal birth. Mothers who opt without reason for a c-section seem to be acting out of ignorance and seem to be starting motherhood by putting their own superficial needs before their babies'. Kind of ironic.

post #23 of 51
Stories like yours remind me that c-sections are a blessing for some women. It's sad that they have become so common, for all the wrong reasons, sort of giving them a bad name. Obviously if I needed one, I'd be thankful to have that option. Thanks for the reminder!
post #24 of 51
Dear MDC:

This must mean that doctors get lots of practice doing c/s on healthy women who do not need them so that the outcome for those who do need them becomes better.
post #25 of 51
Not a really "crunchy" kind of gal. I do ebf and have cd both of my kids but that is about the limit for me. I just wanted to point out that anybody who thinks having a c-section is the "easy" way to have a baby obviously has never had a c-section . I had both my babies via c-section and yes it was medically necessary with BOTH children. Just wanted to put in my .02 and it just really ticks me off that people think a c-section is a fun choice or an easy way out of "natural" childbirth. Perhaps your friends who think that is the case should talk to a mom who has had a c-section and they could be enlightened .
post #26 of 51
Dear MDC:

I have talked to many women over the yrs.

Many women feel that the C/S is the ONLY way to have a baby. It is, in the words of an OB I know, delivering from "above", a nearly heavenly experience that only "he" can deliver.

I have been told to my face many times that having a baby any other way is barbaric and ignorant.

I realize that surgerical deliveries and some interventions are often necessary and thank G-d we live in a time when there is that option, but do you really think ALL of them are necessary?
post #27 of 51
C/S are certainly an overused tool. Just like many other things, they are a good thing gone bad, KWIM?

Here's food for thought... I think this woman is NUTS! http://www.newshe.com/articles/c-section.shtml

PS- she mentions incontinence... why doesn't anyone ever mention that almost every woman who suffers incontinence had an episiotomy. Maybe it's cutting into muscle that causes incontinence, not a baby passing through the birth canal!
post #28 of 51
Dear MDC:

Since we have been doing C/S's at an astounding rate for over 25 years, is there less incontinence in older women?

I don't think so.

Last time I went to the drug store and supermarket, there was a huge row dedicated to ADULT diapers!--- O.K.?

So a 25-50% C/C rate does not guarantee competent continence.

Next argument for c/s, please.
post #29 of 51
Not saying all c-s are necessary, but my sister and I recently worked on a geneology project for our family and I was astounded at how many deaths used to be attributed to birth (both the mother and the child). I personally never realized that so many women used (yes before all these "unnecessary" c-s) to die in childbirth and many children also, if you don't believe me do a little geneology research for your family (or anyone elses for that matter).

I am sure that not all c-s are necessary medically, but do you ever stop to realize that LOTS of medically unnecessary surgery occurs daily (most plastic surgery for example), I think with some women they discount the seriousness of surgery since it is so common nowadays and fail to grasp the gravity of having one's body cut on by a surgeon or doctor. I have to say my doctor did not encourage c-section nor would she have allowed me to just "choose" to have a c-s for no medical reason and I don't think any competent doctor would. Basically I think most unnecessary c-s are a result of uninformed women coupled with incompetent doctors. However, keep in mind that hind sight is 20/20 and it is easy to say that your c-s was not "medically needed" when you are holding your healthy baby in your arms, it is easy to think that all would have turned out ok if you had just "been allowed" to have the baby naturally, but you will NEVER really know if the outcome would have been the same.
post #30 of 51
I agree with you on some points, but my concern is that you are comparing apples to oranges in your theory of birth then v’s birth now. Yes more women and babies died, but what about our understanding of birth? What about sanitation? What about disease? What about close family breading? There are many reasons why more women and babies died. The c/s was not the leading cause of “healthy mom healthy baby”. The strongest factor was cleaner water, sanitation systems, better understanding of food, cleaner food, less abnormalities in babies, penicillin and other medicine to prevent and cure disease.

Now about competent doctors, I do think that may competent doctors do perform c/s on a regular basis. We don’t live in a society that likes to wait, we live in one that wants immediate gratification. The World Health Origination says that women who have had previous c/s should try to birth via VBAC. The case is that most don’t, they have scheduled c/s. And these scheduled c/s are done months in advance. Now I know that c/s are necessary and they do saves lives. But when I see women on a daily basis say things like “scheduled my c/s today!!!” or “my last one was big so we are doing a c/s” it makes me sick! My own cousin had a baby on the 12th and she had a c/s with her first and had a planned one with her second. Her words to me when we were talking about her c/s a few months ago was “I don’t want to have one contraction. I cant handle pain”. And with her first c/s she had a major infection and almost died!

Now I am not here to bash the c/s industry- but it is true doctors make more money for less time doing c/s v’s vaginal births. Thus they can fit in more clients and make even more money! Now I have a bone condition that gives me a 37% chance of having a breech baby v’s the 4% for women without my condition. I also have a 50/50 chance of my baby caring on my condition. So if my baby is breech it has a possibility of about 90% of having my condition. I would have a c/s for the safety of baby. Those are the case that c/s should be done. The other problem is that even the most competent doctors use augmenting drugs during labor, either to start it or to help with pain. These cause major problems that are also contributed to the high rate of unneeded c/s. I only say unneeded because do women really need a jumpstart? Do they really need pain killers that have just been invented in the last 50 years, when for 10,000 to a million years women have been birthing without the need of either.

The World Health Organization states that no country can justify having a c/s rate of over 12-15%!! We are way in the 20’s and some place the mid to high 20%’s.

It is also about the birth outcome. There are many people who feel that they are the protector of their baby, not some doctor. You have to remember that s/c don’t guarantee a healthy mom and healthy baby! Like I said my cousin almost died last year! The problem we have in civilized countries is that we view the c/s as the save all, when we spend so little time talking about the trauma it can cause. It is a major surgery, it is a leading cause of PP depression, some women feel they have failed, that their bodies have failed them.

I see your point on cosmetic surgery, but then again I think it is the apples v’s oranges again. I agree with you on the fact that women don’t see c/s as a major surgery, but I have to also state that many of these women are told when they are already in labor they need a c/s, and that is already a very emotional time. Women need to trust their doctors, but doctors need to stop living on a 9-5 clock. Doctors need to give power back to women and make them feel powerful, strong and capable.


due in march!!
post #31 of 51
Basically I think most unnecessary c-s are a result of uninformed women coupled with incompetent doctors.
I have to agree on this point. I'm amazed at my friends who won't pick up a single book (exept "What to Expect..., but that's garbage, in my opinion) during thier pregnancy. It's all about the doctor, decorating the nursery, whining about pregnancy...Why not become as informed as possible about the thing that's going to change your life indefinitely? I was so impressed when I first became pregnant, I went to my HMO, expecting to be hassled when I asked questions about midwives and home birth. This doctor, who was young, encouraged me to use a midwife. He even gave me a referral! I realize now how unusual that is. I think there are competent doctors out there, you just have the difficult task of finding them. Again, I have to say, I'm glad c-sections are available for those who need them. Most are performed for the convenience of the doctor or parents who may have other plans that a natural birth would interfere with. I had a friend who scheduled her c-section, so it would be done by the time a friend came to visit. : So, irritating! Well, we've gone totally off topic now...
post #32 of 51
busybusy mama, who wrote that article you linked to? Dr. DeLee?

The best way to prevent the problems w/ vaginal birth is not a c-sec, as suggested by the author, in my opinion, forgo the cumbersome, messy pregnancy altogether, and adopt or hire a surroget, lest the 'perfect' pre-baby body become 'damaged' in the vagina/vulva area.

Maybe we should all go back in time before puberty, stop that natural phenom from occuring, so we don't have to shave our pits.* (Breasts? That's what IMPLANTS are for, duh! Because whatever you grow during puberty WON'T be good enough!)

*Forgive me...I should know better than to assume most Mothering.com gals ARE actual shavers, lol!
post #33 of 51
I mentioned this discussion to my sister yesterday. Her husband is an ob and she called from a national medical conference they're attending right now. Interestingly, this was also a topic at their table the other night. All the drs. seemed to agree that these (planned but medically unnecessary) c-sections are the "wave of the future". THe drs. asserted that a c-section is less risky than a vaginal delivery, safer for both mother and baby. Huh? My ob made certain that I fully understood the additional risks involved with the surgery ("I'm not telling you this to frighten you, but...") and my third child (second c-section) spent the night in NICU because he swallowed fluid during delivery ("very common with a c-section"). My sister was very disturbed by the discussion. She's had two very easy vaginal deliveries and she failed to see how a c-section was safer. My husband says the explanation is simple: money.

post #34 of 51
Originally posted by busybusymomma

Here's food for thought... I think this woman is NUTS! http://www.newshe.com/articles/c-section.shtml
[snip] Maybe it's cutting into muscle that causes incontinence, not a baby passing through the birth canal!
OH. My. GOD!!!!!

I never knew anyone thought that way, let alone an OB... how horrifying! How can she ever look a woman in the face and claim to support natural childbirth when this is how she really feels? It is just shocking.

BTW, post pregnancy incontinence is usually a product of the prenancy itself, not any aspect of delivery. If you don't do lots of Kegels the weight of the pregnancy can weaken and stretch out the pubo-coxyx (sp) muscles so a C birth is no help there... and a planned on is probably worse because I bet a woman who isn't planning to push out a baby doesn't think she needs to do Kegels!
post #35 of 51
Originally posted by tinyshoes
busybusy mama, who wrote that article you linked to? Dr. DeLee?
As far as I know the article was written by By Jennifer Berman, MD
Co-Director Newshe.com who has some kind of tv show. A fellow online buddy sent me the link, I don't have cable myself. She said something like Dr. Jennifer Berman and her sister
Laura have a show on Discovery Health about Women and
post #36 of 51
This is a quote from the article:

So why am I choosing to have a c-section? There are two main reasons. First, I had a very difficult time with the delivery of my son, Max in December, 1999. I was in labor for 18 hours, which was made more difficult by the fact that I had an epidural too early, which in turn caused the birth process to slow down.
So, don't have an epidural or wait a little longer. In the article she acts as if the popularity of c-sections is reason enough for doing it. Ridiculous!!

Edited because I sounded way to mean!
post #37 of 51
The fact that people died in child birth in your family tree does not mean that they needed a surgical delivery.

They may have needed a more competent attendant for their birth. If the birth occurred on the frontier, there may not have been anyone but the local granny midwife and there was no one else to ask for help in complicated cases.

Better antiseptic methods, better nutrition and transfusions are what helped bring down the mortality rate for babies and mothers. Not universal hospitalization. They occurred at the same time in this country, but that does not mean that surgerical deliveries helped save mothers and babies.

Just read the story of Ignaz Semmelweis in Vienna in the Women's Hospital there over 100 years ago. Women died all of the time from "childbed fever", a condition that doctors blamed on those "crazy women"; it was actually caused by the doctors themselves who did not wash their hands after working in the morgue on cadavers. They carried the germs right to the laboring women.

G-d does not wash his hands, does S/He?
post #38 of 51

oh ladies.....you're makin' me quote!

Time for me to get out "Rediscovering Birth" by Shelia Kitzinger.

As I was searching for the bit I wanted to quote, I came across a "fun fact" to corroborate applejuice's point:

In 1913, 15,000 or more American women died in or around childbirth and nearly half of the deaths were from 'childbed' or puerperal fever. Women who gave birth in hospitals were especially likely to develop puerperal fever becuse the doctors examined their patients without washing their hands. The cause of puerperal fever had already been discovered many years before, in the mid-1800s, by Dr. Oliver Wendell Holmes in America, and also by Dr. Agnaz Semmelweis in Austria, who found that the death rate of mothers from puerperal fever was three tiemes higher in the part of the Vienna hospital run by the doctors than the part in which the midwives worked.
I don't have a citation for this tidbit, but in conjunction with this filthy hand business, it was thought that doctors, because they were GENTLEMEN, had clean hands.

Thnx, busybusymama, for the actual author....but I was making an obscure, Dennis Miller-like allusion to the famous OB pionerr, Dr. Joseph DeLee--were he alive today, I'd like to meet the man we can thank for the popularity of episiotomies! (Who would, were he alive today, be a big fan of scheduled c-secs, I presume.)

The following quote, again from Ms. Kitzinger's wonderful new book, is a quote SHE has from Dr. DeLee's "The Prophylactic Forceps Operation', printed in the American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology, 1920.

Labor has been called, and is believed by many to be, a normal function...and yet it is a decidedly pathologic process. If a woman falls on a pitchfork, and drives it through her perineum, we call that pathologic-abnomral, but if a large baby is driven through the pelvic floor, we say that it is natural, and therefore normal.....[blah blah, he's a little verbose at this point and OT for my point].....I have often wondered weither Nature did not deliberately intend women should be used up in the process of reproduction, ina manner analogous to that of a salmon, which dies after spawning? Perhaps laceration, prolapse and all the evils soon to be mentioned are, in fact, natural to labor and therefore normal, in the same way that death of the mother salmon and the death of the male bee in copulation are natural and normal.
(Maybe you gals are smarter than me, but it took me a few readings of this to realize DeLee is trying to 'shock' us with his salmon reference. Of course women aren't disposable like a spawning salmon, but the death of a salmon is 'natural', like uterine prolapse...so maybe 'natural' isn't good, and OB's should follow DeLee's lead and do everything they can to prevent nature from ruining women.)

This is why I joke about Jennifer Berman, the new millinium's answer to women's lib and feminizm, w/ her show "Berman and Berman: For Women Only". I've caught her little show a few times, when it was brand-new and we got the cable channel. She sounds just like archaic, intrusive, mis-guided Dr. DeLee:

My second reason for choosing c-section stems from the work I’ve done as a urologist. During a reconstructive surgery fellowship last year, I saw women who suffered the effects of incontinence and prolapse. These effects are directly related to vaginal delivery.
(Remember, episiotomy is directly related to vaginal delivery!)

I am not convinced that surgery is ALWAYS REQUIRED when delivering a baby (I always say 'birth', but a scheduled c-sec seems more like delivery!) to prevent a woman from having pee-trickle problems later in life! DeLee said snip the crotch, Berman says slice the belly. WHATEVER.

Let's not forget to Kegel tonight, girls!
post #39 of 51

Re: oh ladies.....you're makin' me quote!

Originally posted by tinyshoes
Thnx, busybusymama, for the actual author....but I was making an obscure, Dennis Miller-like allusion to the famous OB pionerr, Dr. Joseph DeLee--were he alive today, I'd like to meet the man we can thank for the popularity of episiotomies! (Who would, were he alive today, be a big fan of scheduled c-secs, I presume.)
Ah, that makes sense! :

Dr. DeLee sounds like every woman's worst nightmare!

BTW, my MIL had six kids and my mom three and both of them got episiotomies each and every time... no ifs ands or buts. They didn't know! Of course, they were shaved, given an enema and forced to lie in the lithomy position as well. I guess that's why I'm so driven to knowledge in this area. I mean, for heaven's sakes this is MY body!
post #40 of 51
I don't think the people who make adult diapers are worried about losing business b/c the Drs. Bermans are pushing for universal c/s.

Depends is still doing a good business.
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