Hi! New here; frustrated and needing advice

[emdeecee_sierra]

<------me during any given 10 minute time period while HS my DC#1

DC is 6; we've been HS all along, really, started getting more formal about a year ago. DC is bright and advanced (if compared to gov. school counterparts). My problem, and I do view it as *my* problem because I feel I should be able to figure this out and handle it, is that I cannot get him to well, do anything. Even once we get past the eye-rolling, heavy sighs, stomping, and sometimes screaming fits and get going with some school, he doesn't remember anything (ie, pronounciations from the previous day, etc.), doesn't listen to me, wastes unbelievable amounts of time either staring out the window, fiddling with something, etc., is constantly trying to or just doing other things, such as getting up to play with siblings, instigating chases with them, telling me he is hungry, or thirsty, or has to go to the bathroom.

DH and I have implemented a fairly harsh system these past 3 weeks. DC gets one warning, then has to stand in the corner. For a very very long time (<ducking> I know, I know! I hate that it has come to this, I would give ANYTHING to be able to handle this as a perfect AP, GD mommy, *but I don't know how*!!! And this is the best DH and I could do for now.) I dislike this system for so many reasons, but one of them is that when it gets to that point, then no more school happens for that day. I honestly think DC would rather stand there than do school. So I am torn between just muddling through trying to get something anything accomplished and just drawing the line.

This is not only causing me so much stress that it is interfering with TTC of all things, but DH and I are starting to get at each other's throats over it. And that is saying A LOT considering we just finished building a house for gosh sakes without so much as a harsh thought (whereas so many other people get divorced, etc., during such a project...) against the other.

I would NEVER send DC to gov. school. So that option is out, despite my mind turning to that at least 50 times per day. We are participating in a co-op as my attempt at keeping myself accountable and doing school daily, plus the factor of DC being accountable with his work, actually getting it done, making it neat since other people will see it, etc. That worked great for 3 months, now it is my biggest nightmare because it takes all my effort, time, and stress to get him to finish what needs to be turned in each week. I have considered and even threatened to drop the co-op, but am reticent to for many reasons, one being that siblings and I enjoy the social aspect, another that we made a commitment to the group and I don't want to let everyone down by my not being there to fulfill my responsibility.

The times I give DC my complete, utterly undivided attention, full focus, it is still a long, drawn-out process. Things do get done, and I feel like he does learn stuff, but I am concerned that he is being manipulative. When he is doing a writing assignment, I don't feel it is appropriate that I offer too much help and guidance, DC should be the one doing the composing and writing. I get SO frustrated because it is as if he just sits there, putting up with my cajoling and even screaming : . I don't end up writing it for him because I refuse to, but it might as well be. Several times now I've simply given up and he's gone to co-op without a completed assignment due to this. This is against co-op rules and highly embarassing to me.

I've tried setting the timer. I've tried to make it fun. I've tried rewards, I've tried punishments.

[cravenab00]

HEY!!
Are you sure you dont live in MY house????

no adivce, just saying things are the same with my DS 8.

[wonderactivist]

Hi Sierratahoe,

I'm so sorry you're feeling frustrated, so let's just start with a big . I don't know anything more than you've mentioned, but I'll try to support you by offering ideas, based on experience with two boys - now 10 1/2 & 6 - who are both very bright but also very different from one another.

Each child is different, and at this young age they are physically growing so fast that sometimes, they just need time to work with their bodies - by moving, building, and digging in the dirt - no matter how intelligent they are, they are also boys.

It sounds like you have accomplished much, but how much of his day is geared toward sitting still? Maybe look at that and look at adding more free time for daydreaming and imagining.

I know for a fact that girls develop differently fom boys and shared this wonderful article about boys in Newsweek with friends recently (it focuses on boys in school, but as a homeschooler with two boys I think it really speaks to ALL of us!)
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/10965522/site/newsweek/
This latest research supports the ideas I mentioned above.

I would also suggest learning as you DO something such as throwing a ball, planting a garden, doing a movement game:

PE Central (a lot of movement activities integrated into curriculum and articles explaining more about why movement is so important in teaching):
http://www.pecentral.org/

Best wishes,

Lucie

[Camellia]

It sounds like your ds is doing what I did during my PS years. Have you considered applying some tenants of unschooling?

Here are a couple of good links.

http://sandradodd.com/unschoolingcurriculum.html (taken from: http://www.sandradodd.com/unschooling )

Maybe if he were helping plan his curriculum and working on subjects he found interesting at that particular time, you could avoid some struggles.

GL!

[joandsarah77]

IMO if my child was showing that much resistence every day I'de take that as a clear sign that the way I had decided to educate them was not compatable with them. And I'm not talking homeschooling verses ps, but rather the method your using in your home schooling. You expect kids to groan now and then and to throw paper balls but

eye-rolling, heavy sighs, stomping, and sometimes screaming fits

combined with

he doesn't remember anything

clearly show it isn't working. So why beat your head against a dead horse.

You don't say what you are using? Or how much seat work you are trying for? or how long you expect school to go for?

When he is doing a writing assignment

What does this look like? what are you expecting? A line or two? a paragraph?
6 year old boys are notorious for not likling to write.

How much imput does he have in what he is learning?

Sorry for all the questions but that would help to get a clearer picture.
I'm totaly guessing here, so sorry if this is wrong. But I'm guessing the programe is too much into workbooks and too much seat work.

[Dar]

There are lots of ways to learn that don't look at all like school. A lot of the stuff schools use for learning (lots of written work, sitting, etc.) came to be because it's the easiest way for a teacher to teach 25 kids, and then try to figure out what they learned. With one kid, there is a whole world of other options. You can go places, watch video, talk (and talk and talk some more), build things, do art projects, snuggle up and read to him, play games... lots and lots of ways to learn as much or more than he is learning from the traditional curriculum!

Even if you're not into unschooling, there are plenty of people building learning experiences for their children that the kids actually enjoy doing. You can always catch up on reading or math, but it's really hard to regain joy in learning.

dar

[SagMom]

Jo made a lot of good points--I'm interested in hearing your answers, but I have a question of my own to add: How were things before you got "more formal?" Was he happy then? If so, and since he's "bright and advanced" then maybe consider going back to the way things were then.

I agree with Dar, about the importance of the joy in learning. He's still very young and it would be a shame for him to learn that learning is such a struggle.

[Lillian J]

Hi Sierratahoe! I sure hope I'm not about to offer more advice than you're looking for, but I do have a lot of thoughts on all this.

I think age 6 probably seems like a pretty big child to you at this point, because you've got much younger ones. I remember when my son was 2 and 3 that I thought of the 5 and 6 year olds around us as a lot bigger - and the moms with younger children did too at that time. In the big picture, though, 6 is really very, very young - almost as much of a baby as the others. These next few years are going to go by in a flash. The regrets most people have are not about having been too easy on their young children, but about having been too hard on them.

When my son was 6, he was in a Waldorf kindergarten half days where all they did was play, sing songs, listen to stories, do a food activity a day (like making bread or cutting veggies for soup), and color or paint a bit. When he was almost 7, he was going to go into a little school that was more academic, so I quickly got him reading 3 letter words toward the end of the summer - his first exposure to the alphabet and reading. After that year of school, we started homeschooling, and it wasn't long before I realized there was no realistic need to do formal lessons - he was learning up a storm from everything around him (like the things Dar mentioned). The reason I'm going into all this is to say that he's in college now and doing very well - without having done formal studies when he was your son's age (our story, with comments from my grown son and his dad).

I've been talking a lot lately with old friends whose kids are also grown and doing well in college - and the subject often comes up about how much we wish we could help people who are just starting out realize how unimportant it is to get young children into academic studies so early. It won't in any way get them ahead of anything by the time any of it matters. What it can do instead, though, is make them think that learning is something to be dreaded rather than something that brings joy and a sense of fulfillment. The love of learning itself is the thing that will really matter in the long run - the one thing that will open doors of all kinds - so it's the experience to cultivate. Einstein once observed:

"It is... nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction have not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry; for this delicate little plant, aside from stimulation, stands mainly in need of freedom; without this it goes to wreak and ruin. It is a very grave mistake to think that the enjoyment of seeing and searching can be promoted by means of coercion and a sense of duty." A 6 year old has a natural desire to be spending his time playing and moving, because those are very strong natural built in drives - the ways they learn. Some children that age and even younger do have a curiosity about the written word and numbers, and even writing - but there's nothing better or ultimately more productive about that way of thinking and feeling. It's just a different kind of personality and temperament. In the long run, it all evens out - and those children who have been allowed to do these things by their own internal clock instead of an arbitrary societal one (such as "he's 6, so it's time for traditional 1st grade studies...") do end up doing very well. It's not a question of spoiling them or caving in - it's a matter of being respectful of individual needs and reasonable choices.

You mentioned the co-op in terms of your relationship to it and the younger siblings' relationship to it:

We are participating in a co-op as my attempt at keeping myself accountable and doing school daily, plus the factor of DC being accountable with his work, actually getting it done, making it neat since other people will see it, etc. That worked great for 3 months, now it is my biggest nightmare because it takes all my effort, time, and stress to get him to finish what needs to be turned in each week. I have considered and even threatened to drop the co-op, but am reticent to for many reasons, one being that siblings and I enjoy the social aspect, another that we made a commitment to the group and I don't want to let everyone down by my not being there to fulfill my responsibility.

Maybe I'm seriously misunderstanding this - oftentimes people aren't wording things in such a way as to fully describe the situation - but it seems as if a 6 year old is having to be responsible for providing the means for a social circle for his mom and siblings. You've made a commitment to the group - but your own children are your biggest commitment, and I'm sure the co-op members would understand that. And even if they didn't - he's only 6, and he wasn't the one who made the commitment. Can you attend the co-op without his having to perform for them? If not, the co-op doesn't sound to me any more reasonable than a school might be.

I've seen the term "unschooling" come up a few times here, but I'm not even thinking about that in particular so much as I'm thinking about tailoring your son's learning life to him rather than trying to tailor him to a program set up for him. If his sense of self-worth and natural joy of learning are tarnished, he ends up behind rather than ahead. We can all learn worlds of things without our learning coming in the form of something called "school." Children are no different. Anything he needs to learn over the next 10 or 12 years can be learned in a very short time when the time is appropriate.

And that leads me to something I wrote the other day and am going to borrow from another thread and copy here - because these are things that came to mind here too:

"I hope people aren't getting sick of this story, but here goes again
A few years ago, my son sat on a panel of young adult homeschooled grads. One of the questions was "If you could go back and redo anything, what one thing would you like to change?" He said that he wished we had known from the beginning what we discovered as we went along - that things can be learned a lot faster and more easily if they're studied later rather than earlier. He said things that can take months or years at an early age can take weeks at a later age. It was actually kind of a radical remark, but there was loud laughter and applause from the center front rows of the audience - those were his homeschooled friends and their families. They all got a great kick out of it, because they had all been there and done that! I asked him afterward about what he'd said - I felt kind of bad, because my memory was that I'd learned that lesson pretty early on. He said that it was early on, but he just wanted to make that point for people who were just starting out with little kids.

One way the point he made was demonstrated was when he was ready to take his SAT in preparation for college applications. He took sample tests, and found that he needed to learn more algebra for the math part. He had just skimmed the surface of algebra when he was a young teen - just wasn't interested. Well, he went to a math tutor, took her his sample test, and showed her what he wanted to work on. I can't remember how many times he went to her - not all that many - but all she did was show him how it all worked, and he just sucked up the things he needed. Meanwhile, he went through some algebra books he picked out, and did a little practice from them on those specific things. He took the test, did well, and the scores were part of what got him scholarship offers. I had been watching his learning process for many years, obviously, but I was still pretty surprised at the way he aced the math portion of the SAT. I shouldn't have been surprised. He wasn't. He had been brought up to feel that if he wanted to learn something, he could just simply, what's-the-big-deal?, learn it - there wasn't a lot of hocus pocus about it." Okay, I've run out of words...for now... Lillian

[Slabobbin]

Interesting thread. I'm looking forward to hearing your answers and then reading the responses as well.

[alegna]

Honestly? From a teacher- back off. Nothing at 6 is that important. Let him run in the sun, look for bugs in the grass, dictate his thoughts to you, draw pictures, cook, help around the house.

Let it go.

-Angela

[Lillian J]

Originally Posted by alegna

Honestly? From a teacher- back off. Nothing at 6 is that important. Let him run in the sun, look for bugs in the grass, dictate his thoughts to you, draw pictures, cook, help around the house.

Let it go.

Pure poetry... - Lillian

[almama]

With my 5 1/2 yo I pick my "battles" and while I *really* think getting his hand muscles stronger for drawing and writing and getting the basic reading in is good - my number one thing is teaching him respect. If he has politely told me, "no way do I want to do this now" or at least tried what he told me he wanted to do, then I call it a good day. We need to develop a working relationship, even if he stops homeschooling and that is my primary goal for now.

[emdeecee_sierra]

You mamas are awesome! Thank you so much for your thoughtful responses; keep 'em coming!

There are times it hits me- he is big for his age, physically, combined with all the things he can do- *he's just a BABY*!

The co-op is enjoyed immensely by DS, too. He LOVES it, LOVES going, freaks out when the idea of not going anymore is suggested (DH has had other reasons for pressuring me into dropping co-op; he's mostly on board with us attending, but likes to play devils advocate on occassion). DC#2 is doing a kindergarten and I suppose it is for her, primarily, that I want to continue. Anyway, without getting in to that new subject, I am thinking I need to determine some other way to meet and match the good points of the co-op.

You've all got me thinking a lot; thank you again.

[simple living mama]

Originally Posted by sierratahoe

My problem, and I do view it as *my* problem because I feel I should be able to figure this out and handle it, is that I cannot get him to well, do anything.

•••••••• Admitting to this being your problem is huge. Searching for good advice is another big step to making the craziness stop so I commend you for this.•••••••••

Originally Posted by sierratahoe

I would NEVER send DC to gov. school.

•••••••Why not? Do you not like the way they teach? Would he loose his love of learning? Not trying to sound harsh here but is this not happening in your home at the moment?

Originally Posted by sierratahoe

Even once we get past the eye-rolling, heavy sighs, stomping, and sometimes screaming fits and get going with some school, he doesn't remember anything (ie, pronounciations from the previous day, etc.), doesn't listen to me, wastes unbelievable amounts of time either staring out the window, fiddling with something, etc., is constantly trying to or just doing other things, such as getting up to play with siblings, instigating chases with them, telling me he is hungry, or thirsty, or has to go to the bathroom.

•••••He sounds as if he is shutting down completely to learning. ••••••

Originally Posted by sierratahoe

I would give ANYTHING to be able to handle this as a perfect AP, GD mommy, *but I don't know how*!!!

•••••I don't believe in a perfect anything but there are ways to fix this, It will take having a completely different approach. It's going to take some big changes in you and you dh. A whole different way of looking at school and the relationship you have with your son. •••••

Originally Posted by sierratahoe

I am torn between just muddling through trying to get something anything accomplished and just drawing the line.

What does drawing the line mean? What more can you do? I know you don't want to beat the poor kid so look at it this way. You've taken it as far as you can or want to hopefully and it's not working. ••••••

Originally Posted by sierratahoe

We are participating in a co-op as my attempt at keeping myself accountable and doing school daily,

•••• Accountable to who? Your husband? The government? In your state, must you be part of a co-op in order to homeschool?••••••

Originally Posted by sierratahoe

and I enjoy the social aspect,

•••••••but does enjoy it?••••••••

Originally Posted by sierratahoe

another that we made a commitment to the group and I don't want to let everyone down by my not being there to fulfill my responsibility.

••••••Excuse me for sounding harsh again but F*** the group. The only one you should feel responsible is to your son•••••

Originally Posted by sierratahoe

that I offer too much help and guidance, DC should be the one doing the composing and writing.

•••••Did you say he is six years old? At this young age, they need huge amounts of help and guidance. ••••••

Originally Posted by sierratahoe

This is against co-op rules and highly embarassing to me.

••••••Again F*** the co-op rules. Don't put your co-op friends above the well being of your child. I would drop that co-op like a red hot potato! It sounds like it is getting in the way of what is really important here.•••••

Originally Posted by sierratahoe

I've tried setting the timer. I've tried to make it fun. I've tried rewards, I've tried punishments.

•••••••But you haven't tried the obvious and that is to LAY OFF your poor kid altogether and start from scratch.


Im really not trying to be hurtful so please don't let me put any sort of lump in your throat but please try to read your words and see what's happening to not only your sweet child but to you and your husband. Your attempt to homeschool your child is ripping the family apart.

The worse thing we can do to our children (and I've been guilty of it as well) is when we loose what is most important between our child and ourselves. Things like trust, friendship, positive guidance, patience, joy, the desire to be around each-other all for what? Somebody else's idea of what school should be like?

If you are feeling disappointed with how this is all turning out then find the folks that are making it work and learn what they are doing. Real parents, not school book text writers or so called experts on what children should know by first grade. Read as much as you can on this site and see where you are finding the "It's working!" stories and see how they are doing it differently. Schooling your child CAN be joyful and rewarding.

Read the good articles on Jan Hunt's website called the Natural Child Project and open up to the good wisdom there. Articles like

Ten Ways We Misunderstand Children
http://www.naturalchild.com/jan_hunt/misunderstand.html

How Children Really React to Control
http://www.naturalchild.com/guest/thomas_gordon.html

Deschooling a Parent: Learning to Trust
http://www.naturalchild.com/jan_hunt/deschooling.html

Nurturing Children’s Natural Love of Learning
http://www.naturalchild.com/jan_hunt/unschooling.html

I know you can turn this around. So much to the point where you are seeing huge changes in your family and especially your son. Your dh has to be on board fully or this will not work. Read together. Stop schooling for now and tell your son spring break has started early. Take this time to love him and laugh and play and research what makes a child WANT to learn with out any sort of manipulation. Best of luck and please know I say all of this as one homeschooling friend to another. •••••••••

[Shooshy]

I have read this thread with great interest!...m

Lillian, I thank you for your post!

I have the absolute loveliest 5 yr old DS who's learning style is so completely different from his sister that it's like, living on a different planet.

But I certainly appreciate all that you have said!!!
Karen

[SagMom]

Here's what I would do:

Stop yelling, stop rewarding, stop punishing. Explain the rules of the co-op to ds and if he wants to attend and participate, help him as much as he needs in order for him to do that. If this means having him dictate a story to me, which I write down, I'd do it. If he didn't want to participate, I wouldn't make him. I'd stop requiring him to do any "school work" at all. I'd look at the things he's interested in, and encourage them. Does he like to be outside? I'd take him on hikes, or to a nature center. Does he like Legos? I'd let him build. I'd find museums which interest him, I'd play board games he likes, I'd find a playground or homeschool group or set up play dates if he wants to be with friends. I'd drag out the arts and crafts supplies if he likes that. I'd read to him. In short, I'd ask him what he'd like to be doing, and then do it.

I'm not understanding your problem of accountability. I was going to wait on responding further until you posted more info, but I'm guessing you're not comfortable answering the questions you've been asked on this thread, so it's hard to give a more specific response. It sounds like a lot of pressure, when you're talking about a six year old being accountable for his work. At that age, they should be playing, imo. I'm not sure who YOU feel you're accountable to, either other than, your children. I think we're accountable to our kids to provide them with a loving, kind, gentle homelife. I think we're responsible for introducing them to the world and helping them to navigate it when needed. (I probably shouldn't even be trying to address this part of your question, because I just don't understand it.)

I think your son is telling you, in every way possible, that this type of homeschooling is not working for him. I'd explore other styles of homeschooling, talk to others, read some books or websites to get an idea of the options. Then maybe you can design something that he'll be interested in and willing to do.

I think that, continuing down the path you're on will only make matters worse. Rather than trying get him to do things your way, you need to find out what way is best for HIM.

Frankly, after reading your original post, my first thought was, "Maybe school would be a better place." I think it's possible to fix the situation you're in, but I also think it's going to require a big change. Maybe, looking at your reasons for homeschooling would be a good starting place. What are your goals? For instance, is your goal to have a child who's a competent writer by the end of the 2005/06 school year? Or maybe it's to have a child who's able to write well by the time he has a need to write? Or maybe it's to have a child who enjoys writing, at whatever age that happens to happen? Or maybe it's......whatever????? Of course, whatever goals YOU have, must be compatable with your dc and his development, interests and temperment. Saying a child is being "manipulative" is very negative, but really I see it as the child telling you what's working for him and what's not. I don't see listening to your child's needs as a negative.

[oldermamato5]

read John Holt's books. Completely changed the way I looked at education.
Lillian J I appreciate your wisdom!

[UUMom]

I just realized that I am sitting here with my mouth open. The first thing that comes to me is that I don't see how this rule-ridden coop is any better than a government school. The second thing is writing and composing *without assitance* for a 6 yr old?

My dd is 6 and yesterday her 'composing' consisted of her writing notes to dad (all tiny and folded up. lol) . "Dear Dad, you are a stinky monkey" and her dad replying "You need a bath". She even learned how to spell "flatulence".

Have some fun.

[chaos_pie]

Here is my story and thought:

I am a new homeschooler of two months (so you could take this whole story with a grain of salt ;-) ) and having some issues with my 6 yo son and reading (I didn't think his reading was progressing fast and well enough)...he is sometimes getting things confused (seeming to learn something but then forgetting) but recently has been kinda negative (saying "reading is dumb" ).

So on some good advice I received here, and from a friend (who was homeschooled herself), I was feeling the need to back off (I clearly was stressing and pushing at reading) and I felt we needed a different approach. I bought a totally different reading book, showed it to ds. I told him that I heard him saying "reading was dumb", and that he seemed frustrated. I asked him if he would like a break from working on reading and when he was ready, we would start working in a different way.

OMG, my son's body totally relaxed, he smiled hugely at me and said "yes, I really would like to do it differently". I almost cry writing this, because my son is not an overly verbal kid and for him to stay engaged in a conversation that is emotional and about him AND then respond, "wow!" . In some ways, I felt this interaction, what he and I both learned and the connection we had, was probably more important than working on a batch of phonics!

So, my thought, based on my short experience, is trying to find a way to include your son in this conversation. Letting him know you see it isn't working, what would he like to do?-- short break, a different approach, a different time of doing work-- since I am so new I don't have the specifics here and I am seeing other mamas are posting good stuff on that.

Good luck! I know we will both come through this and we ALL will do great!

[Nickarolaberry]

subbing because this thread is really interesting.

mamasierra, could it be too that you and ds are suffering from the winter "blahs" and just need a breather for a while? I know lots of families, homeschooling or not, get into a major rut this time of year and need to take a break.

Maybe just do that for a week or two and see how things feel. Then perhaps you can adjust the approach to home*learning* for you and ds in increments if an altogether turn-around sounds too scary, or too much like a freefall. Baby steps, baby steps.

Giving you a and wishing you luck.

ETA: Having been through the fertility TTC run myself, it can be enormously stressful and your tension can come out via impatience with everyone and everything, even if you're not consciously aware of it. I've been there. Sometimes giving yourself a break/vacation on *everything* including the overt TTC efforts makes a big difference in outlook. FWIW.