Women Who Make the World Worse/feminism

[fly-mom]

Has this book (by Kate O'Beirne) been discussed here? I tried searching for a discussion, but I couldn't find it. I saw this woman on a book tv interview and I was quite disturbed by her message. I was wondering if the book was worth a read or not.

Has anyone read it? If so, what did you think?

[frowningfrog]

I have heard of it but havent read it ...I caught a little bit of the program you are speaking of..
I am curious about the book..Im not sure I will read it thought

[ellemoon]

Well, I read this piece on Salon about it. It is an interview with the author:

http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/200...rne/index.html

To tell you the truth I am curious to read the book as well. If I do I will wait until I can get it from the library. I am quite certain I don't want to give her any of my money.

ellen

[Bufomander]

:

[Meiri]

I'm curious how the concept that women are full-fledged human beings deserving of the same dignities and rights as men makes the world a worse place.

From what I see going on in the real world, it's in places where women are treated as property and are the least educated that the worst atrocities--to men, women, and children--are happening.

[~member~]

O'Beirne blames the feminist movement for the breakdown of the family, the feminization of society, a weakened military, an exaggerated sense of the epidemic of domestic violence, an invented wage gap, and the degradation of motherhood.

Well, I blame women like O'Beirne who try to push everything under the rug and place blame on other women.

[fly-mom]

ellemoon- I feel the same way. I am curious to read it but I certainly don't want to give her any of my money.

She had some interesting 'theories' that I just really don't know enough about to make sense of. For example: She states that the wage gap between men and women is fictional, and that the only wage gap that exists is because women tend to take jobs with more flexible hours or that don't require long hours and commutes, which means that they are not paid as well. Also she says women tend to go for jobs that are less demanding, and therefore pay less. The interviewer asked her about (i.e.) nurses and teachers, whether these were less demanding jobs or whether maybe since they were jobs dominated by women they were simply valued less. She didn't really have a convincing answer for this, and asked something like "well, what are you comparing these jobs to? More demanding than what?" Anyway she concludes that to take a lower paying job is a CHOICE that women make, so that the wage gap, in these cases, is a choice.

She states that women should NOT be ALLOWED in combat in the military because they are not, generally, as strong/physically fit as men, and that allowing them into combat weakens the military and puts the soldiers in more danger.

Well- I need to go read that article that ellemoon posted...

[Nora'sMama]

Originally Posted by MamaInTheBoonies

Well, I blame women like O'Beirne who try to push everything under the rug and place blame on other women.

You said it, MITB.

[Ruthla]

I agree with much of what she's saying (based on the interview, I haven't read the book.) I agree with her about the denigration of motherhood and that the goal of Feminism shouldn't be "women trying to turn into men." I wonder if her interpretations of the "wage gap" are accurate- that women are lower-paid because many women choose to work less. It makes logical sense to me, but I haven't studied the raw data myself.

I strongly disagree with her about domestic violence. It's obvious she's never been in an abusive relationship or been close to somebody who was. Emotional abuse is every bit as damaging as physical abuse, but a lot harder to recognize and stop. Attitudes like hers make it even harder- which can lead to more people staying longer in abusive relationships, and allowing the abuse to escalate.

[Robin926]

Originally Posted by fly-mom

ellemoon- I feel the same way. I am curious to read it but I certainly don't want to give her any of my money.

She had some interesting 'theories' that I just really don't know enough about to make sense of. For example: She states that the wage gap between men and women is fictional, and that the only wage gap that exists is because women tend to take jobs with more flexible hours or that don't require long hours and commutes, which means that they are not paid as well. Also she says women tend to go for jobs that are less demanding, and therefore pay less. The interviewer asked her about (i.e.) nurses and teachers, whether these were less demanding jobs or whether maybe since they were jobs dominated by women they were simply valued less. She didn't really have a convincing answer for this, and asked something like "well, what are you comparing these jobs to? More demanding than what?" Anyway she concludes that to take a lower paying job is a CHOICE that women make, so that the wage gap, in these cases, is a choice.

She states that women should NOT be ALLOWED in combat in the military because they are not, generally, as strong/physically fit as men, and that allowing them into combat weakens the military and puts the soldiers in more danger.

Well- I need to go read that article that ellemoon posted...

I thought the wage-gap was between women and men working the same job. Not, for instance, between a nurse (traditionally female job) and say, a doctor (traditionally male job). Of course there's a difference between different types of jobs. My understanding is that the wage gap would be the difference in pay between a male doctor and a female doctor doing the same job for different pay.

And another thought, doesn't this woman realize that without feminism she wouldn't be writing books that are published for the general public???

[hipem]

Originally Posted by MamaInTheBoonies

Well, I blame women like O'Beirne who try to push everything under the rug and place blame on other women.

Amen. I saw a long part of the interview on book tv but to be honest it gave me the willies. Even if I agree with small parts of her theories (namely that women should not try to be men and we shouldn't necessarily be teaching little girls that equality equals sameness...) I just cannot watch a woman who benefits from all waves of feminism blame other women for the woes of the world. Ick.

[CookieMonsterMommy]

Originally Posted by hipem

I just cannot watch a woman who benefits from all waves of feminism blame other women for the woes of the world. Ick.

Makes you wanna throw up, doesn't it?

My sister works for a local mom-and-pop book store that manages to stay in business (dammit B&N and Borders!) for the most part because they ship through Amazon--ie someone buys the book online at amazon, but it's technically coming from this bookstore. Anyway, she does the shipping and packaging, and said they've sold a BUNCH of these books, and most are going to men in the Bible Belt, and the few they sell in NY and other blue states are going to mostly women. I can't help but wonder if the blue states are buying them just to wonder WTF is up with that chick....

Kelly

[frowningfrog]

Originally Posted by ellemoon

If I do I will wait until I can get it from the library. I am quite certain I don't want to give her any of my money.

ellen

Yes that is more along the lines that I was thinking about why not to read the book.

[Ruthla]

I still can't help but wonder if the "men in the bible belt" are actually men, or women having things shipped to their DH's name.

[CookieMonsterMommy]

Originally Posted by Ruthla

I still can't help but wonder if the "men in the bible belt" are actually men, or women having things shipped to their DH's name.

That's true....I was kinda thinking the men were buying it for the women..... who the heck knows.

[nonconformnmom]

Her comments in the article about stay at home dads were ... confusing .. to say the least.

Find me one. Find me one in the history of recorded mankind.

Does she believe they don't exist? Does she believe that if there are stay at home dads then they must be miserable and only doing it because they have no other choice? Is she living in this decade?!! While she merely stated the obvious by saying that if a woman wants her husband to stay at home she should marry one who is willing to do it (DUH!) why does that man necessarily have to be a "liberal" or a "starving artist"? How can she be so certain that a man would never voluntarily choose to stay at home and be the primary caregiver? (Mine did, and has, for 3 happy years.)

But the clincher is when she said about stay at home dads:

Society will never, ever, ever, ever validate it. Ever. Ever. So, next question.

Why is the idea of society validating stay at home fathers such a threat to her? Why is she so afraid?

[PrettyBird]

Originally Posted by Ruthla

I still can't help but wonder if the "men in the bible belt" are actually men, or women having things shipped to their DH's name.

I was just going to say that. I buy books for DH all the time online. The outsider would think I am an avid fan of science fiction. Similarly, DH ordered me a bunch of stretch mark cream last month

[CookieMonsterMommy]

Pretty, I totally understand where you're coming from. But the point was, there was a disparity (sp?) between the sexes. It would be an odd coincindence if those in the conservative states were all using their dh's accounts, while those ordering from the liberal states were women who used their own accounts, yk?

[fly-mom]

I did notice that many of the favorable reviews on Amazon were posted under male names.

[fremontmama]

I just read that Salon.com interview and not only do I not agree with her, but I am having a hard time figuring out if she even makes any sense at all. For instance, where do you get the argument that a one-income family somehow pays for the tax break a two-income family gets for daycare expenses?

I agree with previous posts. I have a hard time with women who denigrate feminism. Don't they realize how much they owe to past feminists? that they even have a voice for everyone to hear or the opportunity to make arguments or interviews or be a lawyer (like this Kate). Urghhrr : is due to the work other people have made in the past!

crazy!