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non-AP mamas who want to think they're AP? - Page 6

post #101 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by crunchy_mama
AP to me is not so much about a checklist. However, we had a LLL meeting this last week and this one lady was about to drive me nuts talking about how she was so crunchy and all the things she did, but has talked many times about doing the opposite- CIO, crib sleeping etc. Why lie about it? I think whatever parenting decisions one makes they should at least be confident in them (even if I personally don't agree with them) it seems that for some it is just the in thing to follow, even if they don't actually ap at all.

Im actually not surprised. I have known people who are crunchy but not AP.
post #102 of 149
I am a guilty party. 2 Boys neither intact. I didnt know better with my first and new better with my second and shamfully made a choice for him that wasnt mine to make. My husband insisted he be circed. I felt trapped. I felt as if this is his son too should he not have a say, but really he doesnt. Looking back 2 years ago, I knew better and didnt do better. He has no one to blame but me for not protecting him. I however feel I tried to be as attached as I can be to him and his brother and sister. I do not let him CIO even now and he is 2, I did nurse him till age 2, we delayed solids till a year, we selectivly vax, we slung him (he wouldnt have it now lol) we CD'ed on and off for most of his life, we co-sleep with him, we try to practice PD/GP but its hard, I come from a family of yellers, so I really work on not yelling but it happens. My guilt for not protecting those boys will always be there. If my insurance hadnt paid for it, it wouldnt have been done. I wish they would just do away with it.
post #103 of 149
Attachment Parenting is first and foremost about attachment and bonding. Period. There are many things that are contrary to attachment parenting such as causing a baby pain or emotional distress. There are other things that one might think are contrary to AP ideals that good AP parents practice because that's what works best for their family, or those are the circumstances they are faced with and must adjust the standards.

On paper I'm a miserable AP parent. I felt like a failure for years because some of the ideals of AP were not attainable to me. I have even made a lot of mistakes in the hazes of stress, sleep deprivatio, and PPD. But in my heart and in practice I'm very attached to my kids and they to me, and therefore I'm an AP mother.

OTOH just because a mother practices some or most of the AP goals (breastfeeding, family bed, etc) does not make them AP. I know of a few moms like this who look great on paper but behind the scenes things are not so great and the parents are not trying to improve themselves to get beyond those practices.

I think if a parent is trying to improve their parenting and they want to subscribe to the AP name as an inspiration to improve themselves and thier family life, then great! Even if they are not 100% perfect, it's up to us to encourage them and educate them, not criticize them and drag them down. They need us. Their kids need us.
post #104 of 149
Hi,
Was part of the OP's starting statement really about how AP has gotten a bit "trendy"? Perhaps I'm reading into this here. But just like all things that have gotten trendy, or have become "buzzwords", there is a core of truth below the talk.

I agree with what's been said here about labeling--it's a sticky thing. Once you label yourself one way, OR start labeling or harshly judging others, it's hard then to hold yourself beyond reproach. Does that make any sense?
post #105 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by USAmma
Attachment Parenting is first and foremost about attachment and bonding. Period. There are many things that are contrary to attachment parenting such as causing a baby pain or emotional distress. There are other things that one might think are contrary to AP ideals that good AP parents practice because that's what works best for their family, or those are the circumstances they are faced with and must adjust the standards.

On paper I'm a miserable AP parent. I felt like a failure for years because some of the ideals of AP were not attainable to me. I have even made a lot of mistakes in the hazes of stress, sleep deprivatio, and PPD. But in my heart and in practice I'm very attached to my kids and they to me, and therefore I'm an AP mother.

OTOH just because a mother practices some or most of the AP goals (breastfeeding, family bed, etc) does not make them AP. I know of a few moms like this who look great on paper but behind the scenes things are not so great and the parents are not trying to improve themselves to get beyond those practices.

I think if a parent is trying to improve their parenting and they want to subscribe to the AP name as an inspiration to improve themselves and thier family life, then great! Even if they are not 100% perfect, it's up to us to encourage them and educate them, not criticize them and drag them down. They need us. Their kids need us.


This actually brought tears to my eyes. Thank you for saying this so eloquently.
post #106 of 149
When you think about it, who wouldn't want to embrace the term Attachment Parenting. No one wants to go around with the title of "NonAttached Parent." We all want to feel that we are attached to our children whether we practice attachment parenting or not. Why would everyone NOT want to embrace that term. However, attachment certainly means different things to different people.

What I find so amusing is that so many people seem to find it their job to define whether I practice AP. My three boys are circ'ed (I wouldn't have done it, but dh was adament due to the experience and opinions of two friends who are not circ'ed and hated the fact that they weren't) and I'm certainly not going to lose sleep over the fact that many of you here think that I am not not an AP parent because of it. I'm much less opinionated than I was after my first was born. I guess I have mellowed in my old age and realize that maybe there isn't one right way to do things.
post #107 of 149
This has been a fascinating thread, especially as I consider myself a mainstream mom who happens to practice some AP behaviors and believes in the AP philosophy.

I approach AP like I approach most things - pragmatically. I think the thing I like best about AP is that it does actually make life easier - for example, I believe:

* Raising happy, healthy kids is so much easier when you have close relationships with them and can let them be kids. Being respondive to their needs (and knowing the difference between needs and desire) avoids a lot of problems.

* breastfeeding is so much easier and cheaper than ff, as well as the protective qualities it offers kids and moms healthwise.

* co-sleeping is how I survive the newborn, eat every two hours, years. For us, CIO just doesn't work, is painful for everyone, and is totally unnecessary if you can be responsive to the kids' needs. Sleep is great - everyone should feel secure about sleep!

* baby wearing is a must for a kid who sleeps best next to mommy AND when dealing with both a newborn and a toddler.

* natural vaginal delivery is best, safest, cheapest, etc for the vast majority of births. I actually was able to have a natural vaginal delivery (in a hospital) for my second who was breech - despite EVERYONE telling me I had to have a c-section.

etc. etc.

However, I don't do a lot of the NFL stuff - I pick and choose what organic foods I feed my family (mainly due to cost), we use disposables, I am actually extremely pro-vaccination (I work in international development and have way too much information in my head about kids dying of measles, etc. ), and I circ'd both boys.

If it had been up to me, I wouldn't have circ'd them, but my husband absolutely insisted because he had to have a circumcision at age 8 for medical reasons - his reasoning was that it was much better to be circ'd at birth than at a later age. My thought was that this is a topic I have NO personal experience with, but my husband does - it was something I agreed to for him. I do not regret the decision, though it is one that I am not comfortable with. I did decide that I had to be there for both babies, even though watching them be circ'd was the hardest thing I ever had to go through.

Now, it sounds that according to some posters, I am not NFL or something enough to post here. I don't claim to be anything in particular, other than pragmatic.

I post on MDC (mainly on working mamas) mainly because I feel totally out of place and weird on the mainstream boards. In my neighborhood, I am the radical earthy mama because I tandem nurse my two and I own a sling. But I sometimes feel like I am not NFL enough for MDC.

Just my comments.

Siobhan
post #108 of 149
Jish & USAmma-Thank you for your posts.
post #109 of 149
People please! Stop making excuses for not protecting your son's genital integrity!

I don't really care who wins the "most crunchy" award, but this really riles me!

I had to have invasive genital surgery (urethra stretching) when I was six and i remeber it vividly. Does that mean I should have had it dome to my daughter when she was a newborn?

You are the one with intact genitals (I assume) which means that YOU have more in common with a new baby boy than a man who has been circed. You still have your clitoris and hood, he still has his frenelum and foreskin!

Circumcision is not inevitable! Just because most American Doctors think to amputate instead of curing does not mean that everyone will have to get it done.

And seriously, a friend not liking his genitals (whom, as a consenting adult can slice`em and dice `em as he pleases) as an excuse to mutilate your own baby? Good thing the guy didn't decide he wanted breasts, because you would be hard put to find a doctor to perform that COSMETIC SURGERY ON AN INFANT.
post #110 of 149
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post #111 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by MilkOnDemand
I don't see how elective circ could possibly fall into a definition of AP parenting - a very natural parenting technique.
Well, it certainly doesn't fit into my idea of gentle parenting.
post #112 of 149
Re: the circ thing

AP is about meeting your child's needs. Because of that, I can see how religious circumcision might be consistent with AP. It's not about meeting a greater need for the child as defined by the religion. Not saying that I agree with that interpretation, just saying that I can see how it might be rationalized.

Non-religious elective circumcision, on the other hand, is an AP issue (IMO) in the sense that choosing to harm your child in the moment when there is no greater need *for the child* being met is not being responsive to your child's need to be safe. Elective circumcision places a parent's want over a child's need and, in that sense, is not in the least AP.

I think it's obvious that parents who circumcise their boys not knowing any better and then have a change of heart can certaintly be AP. I do wonder, though, whether a parent who maintains that circumcision was an appropriate choice can truly be AP. That continued assertion is indicative of a mindset that a parent's (or family's, in some cases) want trumps a child's need, which is not at all consistent with the principles of AP. It also supports the view that children are not independent humans, and are not entitled to be free from harm at their parent's discretion. That, too, isn't consistent with AP principles.
post #113 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonfly
..
I think it's obvious that parents who circumcise their boys not knowing any better and then have a change of heart can certaintly be AP. I do wonder, though, whether a parent who maintains that circumcision was an appropriate choice can truly be AP. That continued assertion is indicative of a mindset that a parent's (or family's, in some cases) want trumps a child's need, which is not at all consistent with the principles of AP. It also supports the view that children are not independent humans, and are not entitled to be free from harm at their parent's discretion. That, too, isn't consistent with AP principles.
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post #114 of 149
I was just thinking about this the other day. I was visiting with a friend, and was rather uncomfortable with her parenting style- shaming her children, threatening spankings (I don't think she's ever spanked but her DH has) and in general is very controlling of them. However, she's a huge babywearing advocate, nursed both of her DDs for a year, and had her babies in a bassinette in her room for the first few months. She doesn't officially like to co-sleep but her 8yo seems to sleep with her quite a bit!

Just because somebody is wearing her infant in a sling doesn't automatically mean that she's going to subscribe to all the AP ideals. I'm not even talking about striving for ideals and not necessarily meeting them (as I strive not to yell at my kids and fail repeatedly.) Some parents truly embrace one or more aspects of AP parenting and have absolutely no interest in other aspects.

As for the mom who calls herself AP yet advocates CIO- well, at least she tries to be attached during the daytime, right? Better to CIO at night and then be in arms all day than to CIO at night and be ignored all day.
post #115 of 149
I'm definately not the crunchiest here and I have a lot to learn, but I just don't understand the need to come onto a AP/NFL board and defend the fact that your boys are circed for whatever reason. Do the anti-circ comments upset you so that you have to state that just because your boys are circed doesn't mean you can't be an AP parent? Well, a lot of us here feel otherwise. We don't think it is in the child's best interest to be strapped down and have his genitals mutilated for no good reason. And yes just because dad feels it should be done is not a good enough reason. Please come to the case against circumcision forum and learn more instead of stating your excuses for not protecting your son from circumcision.
post #116 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruthla
As for the mom who calls herself AP yet advocates CIO- well, at least she tries to be attached during the daytime, right? Better to CIO at night and then be in arms all day than to CIO at night and be ignored all day.
Yes, it's better, but it's still not AP. There's no way anyone who advocates CIO can be an attachment parent. Deliberating ignoring one's baby for 8-12 hours out of 24 is not being responsive to the baby's needs.
post #117 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karry
I'm definately not the crunchiest here and I have a lot to learn, but I just don't understand the need to come onto a AP/NFL board and defend the fact that your boys are circed for whatever reason. Do the anti-circ comments upset you so that you have to state that just because your boys are circed doesn't mean you can't be an AP parent? Well, a lot of us here feel otherwise. We don't think it is in the child's best interest to be strapped down and have his genitals mutilated for no good reason. And yes just because dad feels it should be done is not a good enough reason. Please come to the case against circumcision forum and learn more instead of stating your excuses for not protecting your son from circumcision.
This post is seriously offensive! I did not agree, after much debate, with my husband to have my sons circ'ed just because he wanted to. He had well thought out and clear arguements why he felt we should do it (none of which included that our ds's penis would look nice! - thus we did not base decisions on cosmetic surgery). I understand that you would never agree with his arguements, and thus am not going to go into that debate, but suffice to say I agreed because marriage is a partnership and sometimes we have to compromise. Again, I understand you would never compromise with your dh about circ, but you've never walked a mile in my shoes now have you?

Also - neither of my sons were strapped down - how dare you in your ignorance try to state that this happens in all cases! We insisted on pain relief and my second son slept through the entire proceedure. I agree that they were uncomfortable during the recovery, but I would never consent to having my sons strapped down!

I may have circ'ed my sons, but would never recommend that anyone else do it. I still extended BF (neither one of my sons has ever taken a bottle - even of pumped Breast Milk), co-sleep, sling, work at GD (I too loose my temper on occassion), Never used CIO, try to be responsive to my children's needs and treat them as human beings. If you don't consider me AP - that's fine, you're welcome to your opinion, but it seems rather narrow minded to me.
post #118 of 149
Except (and not addressing religion) there are NO legitimate reasons to circumcise a child. You are stripping his genitals of their most important part for some ideas your husband has. No one protected the baby.
post #119 of 149
Marriage may be a partnership, but if one parent is advocating for medically-unnecessary genital cutting, I think it's fair to say that that parent has problems that need to be addressed, and the other parent absolutely MUST protect the children at all costs.
Knowing that circ is harmful and allowing it anyhow is about as far from AP as you can get. There are plenty of mamas who circ'd, honestly believing it was healthier, and they have my compassion because it was society and doctors who wronged them and their children. But knowing...knowing your infant is having part of his sexual organ amputated on the whim of your spouse, and ALLOWING that, is tantamount to allowing someone to sexually abuse your child as far as I'm concerned.
post #120 of 149
I'm sorry if you felt offended by my post but I stand by my position. I agree marriage is a partnership, but circumcision is not something that should be decided by parents. Let the boy decide if he wants his penis mutilated.

I also didn't have to convince my dh not to circ. He agreed to it because I had done the research on it, and felt strongly about it. He also had not witnessed circs and I have. After witnessing them, there was no way I was going to have that done to my son. All of the circs I have seen have had babies strapped down, so my bad for assuming that all of them are done that way.
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