non-AP mamas who want to think they're AP? - Page 5

[Jwebbal]

Again, I think the two concepts are being confused, please, do everyone a favor and go read the API site, the only mention of circumcision is that its a topic to be avoided at API meetings. NFL is definitely about not circing. But AP is about nurturing, and even though I don't like circumcision, I do think it can be done and still be considered AP. I am thinking of all my jewish friends who did circ (and I have some who didn't fyi). It's like saying you have to eat organic and natural to be AP, or cloth diaper, which is not true. It's not really about natural, its about bonding, breastfeeding, babywearing, etc. Yes, those are natural things, but that doesn't mean all things have to be natural.

[MilkOnDemand]

Originally Posted by Jwebbal

Again, I think the two concepts are being confused, please, do everyone a favor and go read the API site, the only mention of circumcision is that its a topic to be avoided at API meetings.

Okay, so it is a topic to be avoided.

From the API website

This style of parenting encourages responsiveness to the infant or child's emotional needs, and develops trust that their emotional needs will be met. As a result, this strong attachment helps the child develop secure, empathic, peaceful, and enduring relationships.

Circumcision from the get go cannot be responsive to a child's needs. It would in fact be grounds for DIStrust by the new baby for the parent who is definately not helping them be secure or peaceful.

[Jwebbal]

Oh, give me a break. Stop arguing with someone who is against circumcision and take it to the no circ part of MDC. We are talking the definition of AP, which again, I said, its not anywhere in the AP ideals. Again, as much as I don't like circumcision it is done by very AP parents, you cannot say they aren't just because they circed. The topic is to be avoided at AP meetings because it has nothing to do with AP ideals. The API people are about furthering AP ideals, not going off on circumcision (which again, I DO all the time, just not in this thread at this time). Stop trying to limit who qualifies as AP, and just be a role model for the AP ideals. If you feel strongly about Circumcision then fine, try to convert those who are in the decision making process, don't go harping on some person who circed and now regrets/is in conflict about it. I don't like circumcision because I do feel it invades the child's decision in the whole thing, but to say that a mom who circed is not AP goes WAY too far for me, and many others.

[Mountaingirl3]

JoAnn,
Thanks for the distinction between AP and NFL. Believe it or not, I'd never thought about that, and it's helpful to me! We are huge fans of the whole AP list, and very grateful to the internet/Dr. Sears for molding our parenting thoughts during my first pregnancy. However, I'm only now discovering NFL suggestions.

I hope more people are becoming exposed to AP ideas. Even if a parent only embraces one aspect of AP, that would be better for their child than none! As for MDC, I'm glad there's variety here. It's no fun and no challenge to preach to the choir all day .

It's interesting what combinations families can come up with from the APNFL alphabet soup .

[RedWine]

I personally don't care if someone says they are AP but their parenting practices aren't what I'D call AP -- unless they are trying to crash a "safe place." Such as MDC (someone promoting CIO or FF by choice, for example). The only time something like that has happened in real life was when I created an AP playgroup for moms of young kids. Several of these moms needed support for nighttime parenting, and the last thing they wanted was to hear someone say how great CIO worked for them. Someone wanted to join who wanted to tout the advantages of CIO (at 7 months, because her daughter was waking every 2-3 hours to breastfeed...which is totally normal!!!). When I politely told her that mamas were joining this group to AVOID CIO advocacy, she told me that AP was not a checklist and that "CIO can be a healthy part of attachment parenting."

Now, AP is and is not a checklist. I believe that there are a few major issues that are indeed either AP or not AP. CIO is one of them. So in that circumstance, it bothered me very much that she tells everyone that she is AP, but wholeheartedly believes in CIO. This person did not end up joining the group (and the other mothers thanked me for being on the "front lines" of the issue).

[RedWine]

PS -- I consider myself STRIVING to be AP. I breastfeed, sling (when the baby wants to be slung), cosleep, etc. -- but I am really bad at being GD. But I am trying though. I yell, lose my patience all the time, have shamed, etc. But I am trying to be GD, and in no way would advocate such awful actions. So there are probably many AP moms who fall short of the ideal, but the difference is they are TRYING for the ideal, and not advocating the opposite.

[pdx.mothernurture]

I just wanted to weigh in on the circumcision issue, as it relates to natural family living/attachment parenting.

Obviously, there's nothing 'natural' about restraining a newborn and forcibly tearing his perfectly normal and healthy foreskin from his glans before it's slit, clamped, crushed, and excised. Circumcision is invasive; it's cosmetic surgery performed upon the genitals of a non-consenting minor.

Regarding attachment parenting, to me that means being responsive to my child's needs in a gentle, loving, respectful way. It means breastfeeding, babywearing, not letting him cio. It means more human connection, bonding, skin-to-skin contact, touch, and snuggling.

No medical organization in the world recommends routine infant circumcision. It's painful, unnecessary, and traumatic. It has the potential to interfere with bonding and breastfeeding. It *reduces* an infant's genitals, removing what would become 15 square inches of errogenous tissue, containing 3-4 feet of blood vessels, 240 feet of nerves, and 10,000-20,000 specialized nerve endings. The number one reason it's done? Like father, like son. And, misguided fears about locker-room teasing. (Nationwide, as of 2003, 55% percent of American boys left the hospital intact.)

A really facinating Dutch documentary anyone who's interested can watch online for free is, "Mother, why was I circumcised?" Some of it is in English, some has subtitles...but it's free, and about 30 minutes long.

http://asp.noterik.com/video/michael/CIRCUMCISION.mov

Another excellent resource that explains the functions of the foreskin better than any other website/presentation I've ever seen:

“The Prepuce”

(WMP, Streaming):

http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcisi...C/prepuce.html

(WMP, Download-use “save link as”):

http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcisi...TSC_256k_D.wmv

Anyway, just my thoughts (sprinkled with a few, education links). For myself, my son's genital integrity was more important than superficial concerns about matching dad or cultural conformity. He was born healthy, normal, and perfect...he didn't need any alterations, so we left him alone and loved him just as he was.

Jen

PS. If anyone's interested in learning/discussing more, you're welcome to join us in the Case Against Circumcision forum.

[pdx.mothernurture]

Originally Posted by Jwebbal

Oh, give me a break. Stop arguing with someone who is against circumcision and take it to the no circ part of MDC. We are talking the definition of AP, which again, I said, its not anywhere in the AP ideals. Again, as much as I don't like circumcision it is done by very AP parents, you cannot say they aren't just because they circed. The topic is to be avoided at AP meetings because it has nothing to do with AP ideals. The API people are about furthering AP ideals, not going off on circumcision (which again, I DO all the time, just not in this thread at this time). Stop trying to limit who qualifies as AP, and just be a role model for the AP ideals. If you feel strongly about Circumcision then fine, try to convert those who are in the decision making process, don't go harping on some person who circed and now regrets/is in conflict about it. I don't like circumcision because I do feel it invades the child's decision in the whole thing, but to say that a mom who circed is not AP goes WAY too far for me, and many others.

I just wanted to clarify that none of us who oppose circumcision are out to make people feel bad, we're out to encourage education and informed consent, and often also to advocate for legal reform that would afford boys the same legal protection (from genital cutting) that American girls enjoy.

For those who are conflicted or are regretful of their decision, reading the sticky on the Case Against Circumcision forum, entitled "If you regret circumcising your son(s), please post here." and considering sharing your own story might be healing.

All we can do is the best we can do with the information we have available to us at the time. When you know better, you do better.



Jen

[Lula's Mom]

Originally Posted by Jwebbal

Oh, give me a break. Stop arguing with someone who is against circumcision and take it to the no circ part of MDC.

All of MDC is the no-circ part, since this it is "THE Natural Family Living community"!

We had a thread about whether you can be AP and circ some time last year. I think the consensus of it was that you can certainly be AP now and have chosen elective circumcision, in the past, before you were educated on the subject. No one here judges mothers who regret that decision- The Case Against Circumcision forum welcomes them with open arms. There is a stickied thread just for them. They are some of our best intactivists! But infant circumcision is a violent act against a child who cannot help himself, and I don't see how that fits with AP at all. If it's not in the API definition, OK, whatever. It still interrupts bonding and trust between the child and his parents, and often affects breastfeeding. Not NFL or AP.

[AntoninBeGonin]

to me...

I don't have an exact definition of what it means to be considered AP. To me, it means always (within my human abilities ) giving my son the very best I can offer, and treating him like he is an intelligent, worth-while human being from the very beginning of his life. I've known so many people who treat their child as less than human throughout their childhood, then wonder why their child has no respect for them as an older child or adult.

Regarding AP and circumcision, I think that if a parent had their child circumcised because they honestly thought it was in the child's best interest, or if they simply didn't know it was something that needed to be researched, the spouse absolutely would not budge on the issue, or a similar reason, then the parents can truly be considered AP.

On the other hand, if a parent choses to have their child circumcised after learning about the functions of the foreskin, how circumcisions are performed, and that the vast majority are done without adequate pain relief (and even those with pain relief still feel intense pain--just ask anyone who has had injections of topical anesthesia), there is no medical justification, but complications are very common--if a parent knows all this, and still decides to circumcise, I personally do not consider them AP.

http://emj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/conte...tract/22/3/188

~Nay

[~Kira~]

All I have to say on Attachment Parenting as it relates to Genital Mutilation is that:

AP is about responding to our child's *needs*

and

NO baby *needs* to have a healthy, normal, functional part of their body ripped up, crushed and amputated against their will with no medical recommendation for doing so.

I also want to extend a welcome for anyone who wants to share their story on the Parents Who Regret Circumcising thread in the Case Against Circumcision folder. 'When we know better, we do better'




- Kira

[trmpetplaya]

Originally Posted by Lula's Mom

All of MDC is the no-circ part, since this it is "THE Natural Family Living community"!

We had a thread about whether you can be AP and circ some time last year. I think the consensus of it was that you can certainly be AP now and have chosen elective circumcision, in the past, before you were educated on the subject. No one here judges mothers who regret that decision- The Case Against Circumcision forum welcomes them with open arms. There is a stickied thread just for them. They are some of our best intactivists! But infant circumcision is a violent act against a child who cannot help himself, and I don't see how that fits with AP at all. If it's not in the API definition, OK, whatever. It still interrupts bonding and trust between the child and his parents, and often affects breastfeeding. Not NFL or AP.

:

ITA with pps about someone circing without knowing better or thinking that it was best for their child (such as Jewish mothers who really do believe it's best for their children to be circ'd... I don't agree with them, but I don't judge them for doing what they believe is best. I do what I think is best for my children ) still being considered AP or NFL.

However, if someone has all the info, has NO religious reason to cloud the issue (I don't know what I would do if I truly believed G-d had told me to circ my son... I know that the New Testament tells ME not to, but that's a whole 'nother topic), and does it (as a friend just told me) "to make it look PRETTY" or like daddy; then NO that person is not AP. Taking your child's trust and a fully functional, necessary part of his body without his consent is not AP or NFL.

totally come down to Case Against Circ and learn more

love and peace.

[kayjayjay]

Just wanted to say there's a difference between advocating circ and just avoiding the issue. If someone has circed in the past they can still ap their children. OTOH, something like circ simply doesn't fit into an ap philosophy.

I know there are a lot of mamas at mdc that regret their circ decision, and I hope that anyone on this thread in the same position knows that they are welcome.

All of this talk about circ on this thread and how that could never be AP just eloquently proves my point that moms on MDC need to stop being so judgemental of other mothers

I think you're missing the point. One (or more) poor decisions don't disqualify one to be ap...but being ap means in part being able to critically examine these mainstream parenting choices. I don't think refusing to acknowledge circ as an acceptable choice is being judgemental. I would call it having principles.

On a similar note, I have to admit that I have spanked my children in the past. From an ap standpoint, however, I can't rationalize hitting my children and so I don't do it anymore. I try, incidentally, to remember that they are people in their own right and that I'm not necessarily trying to be the one in charge, but to work with them so that we can all get what we need.

[chinaKat]

People can talk all they want about how APing is or isn't exclusive.

But frankly, until people stop touting their exclusive cloth diapering/non-vaxing or whatever fill-in-the-blank status with little smiley faces in their sigs, this site won't really feel entirely inclusive.

Just my opinion, but they are kind of a turn off. It comes off like posters are putting out their "credentials" for all to see.

Of course, I don't put bumper stickers on my car, either, so maybe it's just me.

[Galatea]

Originally Posted by chinaKat

People can talk all they want about how APing is or isn't exclusive.

But frankly, until people stop touting their exclusive cloth diapering/non-vaxing or whatever fill-in-the-blank status with little smiley faces in their sigs, this site won't really feel entirely inclusive.

Just my opinion, but they are kind of a turn off. It comes off like posters are putting out their "credentials" for all to see.

Of course, I don't put bumper stickers on my car, either, so maybe it's just me.

I used to feel this way, too, but what you have to realize is that in their real lives, mamas often get a ton of crap for their parenting style and have to hide it. So when they come here, they are pleased and relieved to be praised for what they normally have to hide. This site is not meant to be entirely inclusive, anyway. We are self-selective. Anything you feel about them is on you.

[Slabobbin]

I haven't read the rest of the threads, I'll do that after I post. I define AP as listening to your baby's needs, not as a set of guidelines. If one person's baby needs to sleep alone to get a good night's rest and the mom insists on putting them in the bed with her, even though neither get any sleep, then she is not being AP in my opinion. She isn't listening to her baby's needs..she is just trying to fit a mold.

[katallen]

I am not totally up on the AP history, but I have always thought of AP as what Dr. Sear's defined it as and as GD as what is more commonly advocated by the "Mothering" magazine and website. I think there are definitely similarities, but AP as Dr. Sear's defines it is open to a lot of different parenting styles including spanking and yelling. Overall though it seems to be a belief that by connecting with your child from day one you will be more able to tailor your parenting style and life style to meet your child's needs. I don't think that any style of parenting can be a "do this and don't do that or you're not one of us" type of thing because all children really are very different. One size does not fit all.

[phathui5]

Of course, I don't put bumper stickers on my car, either, so maybe it's just me.

I love bumper stickers. I had a ton on my car that died so now I'm working on the back of my minivan. Should I add some smilies?

[TripMom]

Originally Posted by Slabobbin

I haven't read the rest of the threads, I'll do that after I post. I define AP as listening to your baby's needs, not as a set of guidelines. If one person's baby needs to sleep alone to get a good night's rest and the mom insists on putting them in the bed with her, even though neither get any sleep, then she is not being AP in my opinion. She isn't listening to her baby's needs..she is just trying to fit a mold.

:

A great example of an "AP" virtue - applied in a manner that is NOT AP. I you. This is a point that can get lost here some time while everyone is quite eager to display their laundry list of APness . . . . .

[TripMom]

Originally Posted by katallen

I am not totally up on the AP history, but I have always thought of AP as what Dr. Sear's defined it as and as GD as what is more commonly advocated by the "Mothering" magazine and website.

Hi Katallen -

I don't understand your comment re GD as GD on this website covers a broad broad spectrum from NC to Positive Discipline (literature from both spectrums is included on the GD suggested reading list posted on the board) - and there is often controversy and hurt feelings on those boards as the posters approaches as to what is "GD" differ so very widely.