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arguments against preschool? - Page 6

post #101 of 154
FWIW

I have a son with a Nov bday so when he turned 3 he did not qualify for the free state pre schools which is just a couple of hours per day

I do not have the money to pay for private preschool but have not really been stressed out about the whole pre school thing. i come from a family of educators and they all believe in starting it young
he just recently started taking control of his potty destiny .

i recently signed him up for a preschool program through the park district
$30
2 hrs per week
some one asked me about the credentials etc..
i laughed
this is playgroup to me
a reason meet at a certain time 2 days per week
play groups have not worked for us
i feel that this just may be a glorified play group ...just what i am looking for !
post #102 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by maya44
I
Second, "wealthy" familes almost never have children in 12 hour day care. They use nannies and if a family is truly wealthy one parent often does not work.
yes but even if one parent does not work , he or she is often not hanging with the kids , in my experience .
post #103 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Baudelaire
Are you both comfortable with the idea that your daughter will trade you and your husband as authority figures for the Queen Bees in her immediate peer group?

I am personally not comfortable with that because I do not trust children to have the good judgment and wisdom that adults (ideally) do. I also find that children, particularly girls, value conformity to somewhat arbitrary social norms far higher than I think it is worth and in doing so, cause other girls to mask their own differences (including difference in intelligence). Many girl groups enforce conformity with what can be unbelievable viciousness.

There's a reason why the rates of anorexia and bulimia are very high among sorority women relative to other college women, to use just one example.
The authority figures I was talking about were teachers. I want my child exposed to various viewpoints from different people. Her peers I don't look upon as authority figures and will teach her to view them as peers. I think like my mother I can set a good enough example for her to draw from to be able to discuss her own experiences.

The valedicotiran of my class would play "stupid" all the time. I always thought that was sad. I had friends who felt their self worth was nothing if they didn't have a boyfriend. But do you know where most of that pressure came from? Home. The mother of the valedictorian taught her that boys don't like smart women. So despite everyone knowing she was smart she was afraid to "be" smart b/c she thought she'd never get a date. The mother of one of my friends had 6 girls and got married very early in life, she wanted her girls out of the house and the only way she saw fit to get that done was for her girls to get married as well. I still remember her mother berating her and asking her what she didn wrong when her boyfriend broke up with her.

DH and I don't look at homeschooling vs at school as an either or experience. For both of us, homeschooling took place in conjunction with school. And both of our sets of parents were careful and vigilant about the schools we attended. To both DH and I there is value to us in going to school and being with peers and being exposed to different adult points of view. The saddest thing about the valedictorian is that the peer pressure in my high school was to get good grades. All 60 members of my graduating class went to college and we came from all socio-economic backgrounds.
post #104 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamaGjr
yes but even if one parent does not work , he or she is often not hanging with the kids , in my experience .
Yes, at ds's preschool, many of the moms are stay at home moms, often with a baby with them. And those kids go from 9-3pm, 5 days a week.

Quote:
The valedicotiran of my class would play "stupid" all the time. I always thought that was sad. I had friends who felt their self worth was nothing if they didn't have a boyfriend. But do you know where most of that pressure came from? Home. The mother of the valedictorian taught her that boys don't like smart women. So despite everyone knowing she was smart she was afraid to "be" smart b/c she thought she'd never get a date.
I probably would have been valedictorian if not for peer pressure. My parents were practically militant about being your own person, not caving to peer pressure, not conforming to the masses, etc. I was very smart, and often tried to hide it because I didn't want to be teased as the "smart" one. I remember sitting with my test, not wanting to be the first one to turn it in. I wouldn't ask or answer too many questions in class, etc. College was the first place I felt comfortable being "smart."

Anyway, back to the OT:
Quote:
This is why I started this thread as a way of finding support for what my intuition was telling me, that my child is not ready for preschool and that that is ok.
Absolutely OK. There is not one good reason to send a child to preschool if you don't need or want to. And nothing is more important than listening to your instincts about your child, even if every study in the universe contradicts what you feel.
post #105 of 154
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by maya44
I find this shocking. First 6 am to 6 pm is day care NOT preschool.

Second, "wealthy" familes almost never have children in 12 hour day care. They use nannies and if a family is truly wealthy one parent often does not work.
I agree with you that 12 hours a day is not preschool but the Berkeley study cited in the aforementioned references did refer to this kind of preschool in it study. Also, yes, a lot of wealthy families do have nannies and maybe one parent stays home. But, at the two private schools I have taught at during my career and one preschool where I was a teaching assistant, we did have families who would qualify as wealthy with both parents working full time. By wealthy, I mean owning multimillion dollar mansions, maybe more than one (vacation homes), driving the latest, large BMWs and Mercedes, giving out $100+ gifts to teachers for each and every holiday, money is no object kind of people. Many people in my part of the country are paper millionaires. They only have beaucoup bucks when they use their stock options. Otherwise, the poor things only make 100-300K per year in salary. They may have had nannies when the kids were babes but when they hit the 2+ year old range, they put their kids in preschool/daycare for the socialization. Sad, but true.
post #106 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by lisalou
The authority figures I was talking about were teachers. I want my child exposed to various viewpoints from different people. Her peers I don't look upon as authority figures and will teach her to view them as peers. I think like my mother I can set a good enough example for her to draw from to be able to discuss her own experiences.
I hope she does, but if she is like most people -- and particularly most girls -- she will regard the queen bees as the real authority figures who will shape her opinions and outlook, her prejudices and values. This is not to say that other authority figures will not matter (they will), but the queen bees will tend to determine a great deal, particularly in the younger grades. Much of her identity will be formed by where she fits into the power hierarchy. Will she be a Queen Bee herself? A wannabee? Or will she be a scapegoat, a target, a Carrie, an outsider?

Quote:




The valedicotiran of my class would play "stupid" all the time. I always thought that was sad.
It IS sad...but these are the current existing values of mainstream culture. Want proof?

Name ten women alive right now who are famous for their beauty. Time yourself.

Now...name ten women alive right now who are famous for their intellectual achievements, particularly in the hard sciences. Time yourself.

[quote]


I had friends who felt their self worth was nothing if they didn't have a boyfriend. But do you know where most of that pressure came from? Home. The mother of the valedictorian taught her that boys don't like smart women. So despite everyone knowing she was smart she was afraid to "be" smart b/c she thought she'd never get a date. The mother of one of my friends had 6 girls and got married very early in life, she wanted her girls out of the house and the only way she saw fit to get that done was for her girls to get married as well. I still remember her mother berating her and asking her what she didn wrong when her boyfriend broke up with her.

[/quote ]I've seen that movie. It's called Pride and Prejudice. Seriously, though, these are cultural values I think are best avoided until my child is old enough to have confidence within herself, which is something that mostly she will only get through age and time. I take a look at how women do in school, and the fact that girls tend to perform marvelously at mathematics and science right up until...you guessed it...middle school.

Quote:

DH and I don't look at homeschooling vs at school as an either or experience. For both of us, homeschooling took place in conjunction with school. And both of our sets of parents were careful and vigilant about the schools we attended. To both DH and I there is value to us in going to school and being with peers and being exposed to different adult points of view. The saddest thing about the valedictorian is that the peer pressure in my high school was to get good grades. All 60 members of my graduating class went to college and we came from all socio-economic backgrounds.
In this specific case, I'm actually glad that she experienced this kind of pressure because it sounds like she wasn't particularly valued for anything above nipple level at home. On the whole, though, I'd have to maintain my assertion that in culture as a whole, of which school is a decided microcosm, girls are less valued for their intellectual achievements than they are for their beauty and conformity to social norms. Those are not things I want my child to experience until she is far, far older.
post #107 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Baudelaire
I hope she does, but if she is like most people -- and particularly most girls -- she will regard the queen bees as the real authority figures who will shape her opinions and outlook, her prejudices and values. This is not to say that other authority figures will not matter (they will), but the queen bees will tend to determine a great deal, particularly in the younger grades. Much of her identity will be formed by where she fits into the power hierarchy. Will she be a Queen Bee herself? A wannabee? Or will she be a scapegoat, a target, a Carrie, an outsider?
I can't believe you've just reduced all social interaction by girls in school to a John Hughes movie. I don't consider girls weak willed beings who will all fall for this. I guess I don't realize how good I had it in my blue collar Indiana town growing up. While middle school was painful for all of us high school was the beginning of the valuing of individuals and less social hierarchies and more acceptance of the "other". School isn't the only place that might promote this. Pick up a magazine, go on the internet, turn on TV, go to a movie, turn on the radio, look at a billboard (if you aren't in VT) it's everywhere. And puberty is painful whether you're homeschooled or not.
post #108 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by boongirl
I agree with you that 12 hours a day is not preschool but the Berkeley study cited in the aforementioned references did refer to this kind of preschool in it study. Also, yes, a lot of wealthy families do have nannies and maybe one parent stays home. But, at the two private schools I have taught at during my career and one preschool where I was a teaching assistant, we did have families who would qualify as wealthy with both parents working full time. By wealthy, I mean owning multimillion dollar mansions, maybe more than one (vacation homes), driving the latest, large BMWs and Mercedes, giving out $100+ gifts to teachers for each and every holiday, money is no object kind of people. Many people in my part of the country are paper millionaires. They only have beaucoup bucks when they use their stock options. Otherwise, the poor things only make 100-300K per year in salary. They may have had nannies when the kids were babes but when they hit the 2+ year old range, they put their kids in preschool/daycare for the socialization. Sad, but true.
It's too bad that those kids had that kind of experience but I really doubt that is the norm. Everyone I know in the town I live in is "wealthy" according to your standards and I don't know anyone who treats their kids like this. The vast majority of the women I know are SAHM's who do not interact with their kids in the way you are describing at all.

Don't rely on stereotypes.
post #109 of 154
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkpmomtoboys
It's too bad that those kids had that kind of experience but I really doubt that is the norm.

Don't rely on stereotypes.
I think you need to remember that the idea that wealthy children are suffering from being in daycare/preschool all day long came from a study done by the University of California, Berkeley. (not me) And, they were looking at a large group of children in daycare/preschool, not the general preschool-aged population. No one, not me, nor the study, is saying that this is happening to all wealthy children. Thus, there is no stereotyping being done here at all.

Have you followed the links mentioned yourself and read the study? My point comes from there, not my own opinion.
post #110 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by lisalou
I can't believe you've just reduced all social interaction by girls in school to a John Hughes movie. I don't consider girls weak willed beings who will all fall for this. I guess I don't realize how good I had it in my blue collar Indiana town growing up. While middle school was painful for all of us high school was the beginning of the valuing of individuals and less social hierarchies and more acceptance of the "other". School isn't the only place that might promote this. Pick up a magazine, go on the internet, turn on TV, go to a movie, turn on the radio, look at a billboard (if you aren't in VT) it's everywhere. And puberty is painful whether you're homeschooled or not.
Lisa, rather than choosing to misread my post (note that I did not say "all social interaction," but rather, "most") or being unnecessarily insulting, bear in mind that the nature of a message board does not permit me to engage in much more than quick references to phenomena and cultural studies with which many people on this board will be familiar.

You are correct that school is not the only place that might promote "this," if by "this" you mean social hierarchies -- which suggests that at some level, you know or experienced the phenomena to which I referred in my previous post. Nevertheless, since the topic of this board was actually schoo, not radio, movies, billboards, and so on, that is why I restricted my observations to that topic.
post #111 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by lisalou
I can't believe you've just reduced all social interaction by girls in school to a John Hughes movie. I don't consider girls weak willed beings who will all fall for this. I guess I don't realize how good I had it in my blue collar Indiana town growing up. While middle school was painful for all of us high school was the beginning of the valuing of individuals and less social hierarchies and more acceptance of the "other". School isn't the only place that might promote this. Pick up a magazine, go on the internet, turn on TV, go to a movie, turn on the radio, look at a billboard (if you aren't in VT) it's everywhere. And puberty is painful whether you're homeschooled or not.
I totally agree, and your experience at school is how my experience at school played out as well.

I keep seeing this generalization about the socialization of girls in school way too much here at MDC.
post #112 of 154
I have an almost 8 dd. Anecdotally only, my dd has had to deal with some of the bully-girl stuff. A few girls would try and nooj the others for the sweeties in their lunch box until they gave it up. When bugging my dd she told them to bug off. She's also very tall and strong so she's not usually a target. I have some of the American Girl books about friendships and we talk about this all the time. As evil as it sounds, learning how to deal with jerks and conflict is important. Learning how to act with integrity and learning to stand up for oneself are essential lessons.

I have faith in my dd that she will "do the right thing" and that she can weather some of the bumps of childhood. I'm here to support, to advise and to comfort but ultimately she will be the adult and I like knowing that she will be a good social navigator.

Cheers
post #113 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Baudelaire
Lisa, rather than choosing to misread my post (note that I did not say "all social interaction," but rather, "most") or being unnecessarily insulting, bear in mind that the nature of a message board does not permit me to engage in much more than quick references to phenomena and cultural studies with which many people on this board will be familiar.

You are correct that school is not the only place that might promote "this," if by "this" you mean social hierarchies -- which suggests that at some level, you know or experienced the phenomena to which I referred in my previous post. Nevertheless, since the topic of this board was actually schoo, not radio, movies, billboards, and so on, that is why I restricted my observations to that topic.
I guess it just seems that your posts seem to limit this social phenomena to school and seems to not take a whole host of issues into account which might lead one to believe that school in and of itself is not actually the issue. What would happen if every parent who sent their kid to school had taught them to value intelligent women to begin with? Would you still have the problem of valedictorians pretending to be stupid or women starting to fail at math in middle school?

Yes I have gone through it in school. But I've also seen it happen in the workplace, in college and other settings. I guess I'm just not convinced that in sheltering your child from social hierarchies while they grow up means that you averted the problem. Kind of like the argument earlier in the thread about molestation. I suppose you could prevent molestation by never letting your child be with anyone but a family member but since what is it 90% of molestations are commited by family members it's kind of a red herring.
post #114 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by lisalou
...since what is it 90% of molestations are commited by family members it's kind of a red herring.
I don't think it's anywhere near that high. I've never seen "family member" as a separate category in the stats. Usually, it says that "x percent" (can't recall, and have seen several different numbers) of sexually abused children are abused by a "friend or family member" or a "family member or trusted adult". This would include a teacher, scout leader, coach, etc. The point being made is that it usually isn't a stranger.
post #115 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride
I don't think it's anywhere near that high. I've never seen "family member" as a separate category in the stats. Usually, it says that "x percent" (can't recall, and have seen several different numbers) of sexually abused children are abused by a "friend or family member" or a "family member or trusted adult". This would include a teacher, scout leader, coach, etc. The point being made is that it usually isn't a stranger.
Maybe, *but* I'd be a lot more concerned about the time/opportunity for a one-on-one situation between the child and "friend or family member." That's part of the reason why I feel that danger of molestation from *teachers* seems to be over-blown here. I certainly don't remember being alone with any teacher until high school.

Totally anecdotal, again, but every woman I've ever gotten to know a bit has had some type of molestation or rape occur in her lifetime. Not that it never happens, but I don't ever remember anyone saying a teacher molested them. It was a mix of: brother, brother of a friend, boyfriend, stepdad, dad, babysitter - and these people, of course, were likely to have had access to these girls one-on-one.


On another note, I think there's something to be said for trying to live in a community where you feel comfortable, and where you feel like there are others with a similar set of values, rather than trying to re-locate to an area where the school district is rated highly (test scores are high). My parents focused on community values rather than the school district rating, and although my school experience was certainly not perfect, I can readily see the benefits of living in a cosmopolitan urban center as it relates to the values in school. We had two valedictorians in the public high school I attended, one male of Indian heritage and one African American female, who also happened to be boyfriend and girlfriend. This particular young woman was not trying to act stupid to get a boyfriend - she reveled in being the smart and different person who she was. I'd say this was the rule among smart girls in my high school, not the exception. I'd also say that this phenomena has a lot to do with the values of our particular community.
post #116 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by boongirl
Thus, there is no stereotyping being done here at all.

Have you followed the links mentioned yourself and read the study? My point comes from there, not my own opinion.
Yes, I have read the study and before it came up on this board. The stereotyping I was talking about comes from these statements:

Quote:
Originally Posted by boongirl
I think, having taught in preschools where most kids were from wealthy families, that the reason social and emotional development is lagging in this group of children is that the parents are just really busy with work and social stuff related to work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by boongirl
middle class families tend to do whatever they can to minimize their childrens' time in daycare/preschool.
I'm just saying, watch the generalizations. They weaken your point.
post #117 of 154
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lisalou
I can't believe you've just reduced all social interaction by girls in school to a John Hughes movie.
the phrase "queen bees" comes from a very popular book called Queen Bees and wannabees. See amazon link below for exact information. It was the basis of the movie Mean girls. CB is just using it as a general term, not something she herself made up.


http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/140...lance&n=283155

That being said, my life in high school was pretty much exactly like the Breakfast Club, full of all the snotty rich popular girls who would never lower themselves to even speak to someone outside of their clique. The very definition of Queen Bees
post #118 of 154
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkpmomtoboys
I'm just saying, watch the generalizations. They weaken your point.
I stand by my generalizations. 20 years of working in the field of education, 10 years as a teacher, and I have rarely seen a deviation from this generalization. When I was teaching in a wealthy public school system, at the elementary school level, I did see some rich people spending a lot of quality time with their children. But, when I worked in preschools (3 - so my experience is limited) I routinely saw wealthy parents of preschool age children leaving their children in daycare/preschool all day long. I am sure there are other rich parents out there only using preschool part time but they would not have used the schools where I worked. Where I worked, the client was mostly super busy, wealthy parents.

But, then again, I am only one person and that is how I intended my point to be conveyed. My experience is much the same as the conclusion of the Berkeley study. I would venture to guess that they made the conclusion they did (long days in daycare/preschool adversely affect children of the wealthy) due to the fact that, as I stated, there is a portion of the wealthy population using school as a defacto nanny. And it is this portion of the population, the rich using preschool/daycare 50+ hours a week, who have children who are suffering from that experience. It may be that most rich people do not use preschool as daycare.

Basically, I was not surprised at all by the findings of the Berkeley study linked in this thread. My experience as a teacher has been the same.

To quote myself:

Quote:
I think, having taught in preschools where most kids were from wealthy families, that the reason social and emotional development is lagging in this group of children is that the parents are just really busy with work and social stuff related to work.


middle class families tend to do whatever they can to minimize their childrens' time in daycare/preschool.
In the schools where I worked, in the city where I live, where there are many, many "paper millionaires", this generalization is accurate. It may be totally different in other areas. I grew up in a wealthy part of California (the OC : ) so I am familiar with the other type of wealthy, those who use nannies and have one parent "staying home" (or out at the country club, as was the case of my own mother). I think it most likely varies by locale.
post #119 of 154
Very interesting thread. I'm facing these questions right now as we're about to move and I'm not sure how much I want to push to find a preschool place for DS. He has been in a waldorf preschool for the past year and has absolutely loved it. But, recently we've been dealing with all sorts of behavioural issues with him and trying to figure out where they're coming from. Last week was a school holiday so he was home all week, and it was like having my son back again. I didn't even realise how much I'd been missing him.

Bear in mind he is in an incredibly gentle, non-academic school, with a loving teacher, and only 12 children in the class, and only 3-4 a.m.'s a week. It couldn't really be better in my mind. But still, after much soul searching my dh and I have both concluded that the behavioural issues are NOT an inevitable part of having a 4 yr old OR the fault of our parenting (far from perfect though it is) but come from him trying to negotiate peer relationships so intensely so early in life.

He picks up so much from the other kids that we have no control over, and doesn't know what to do with it. Just yesterday when Dh dropped him off, another boy said in a loud voice, "Let's kill K.., we don't like him". 3-4 yr olds can just be plain mean to one another, and however much we or the teacher can address things like that, I don't feel kids should HAVE to try and deal with this stuff so early in life.

And also the issues come from him craving our time and attention. I felt he was getting so much since I'm a SAHM and am with him every minute he's home, but last week I saw how much more he craves.

It is tough though because in talking with him about it he gets very upset at the idea of not going to school. He loves his friends there, the teacher, the structure and rhythm, the whole thing. I'm fearful of taking that completely away from him. On the other hand that may just be fear of the unknown, on both my part and his.

I'm not so familiar with the US preschool/kindergarten system (I'm in the UK, moving to CA), but find it hard to believe preschool can prepare a child for kindergarten more than being at home can, other than maybe to "toughen them up" to face the sometimes harsh realities of peer dynamics?

How about pre-K for a child, like DS, who's birthday just misses the date for starting kindergarten. Is there any sense in it or is it still better to keep them home as long as possible?
post #120 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by lisalou
I guess it just seems that your posts seem to limit this social phenomena to school and seems to not take a whole host of issues into account which might lead one to believe that school in and of itself is not actually the issue.
One of the central purposes of school is to reinforce the norms of society. For specific information, see Pierce v. the Society of Sisters.
Second, thank you for acknowledging in your post that I have "limit[ed] this social phenomena to school." I try to do my part to keep a thread on topic.
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